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Post by nathanb on Nov 26, 2007 16:10:45 GMT -5
1) Anonymous wrote:
With time, more professing saints are led to internet sites about the early days of The Truth fellowship. I have known about it now for 10 years so I am even beginning to forget some of the hurt and anger I experienced in discovering the origins of the "truth" fellowship..
Don't get discouraged if you are a bit hurt or sad about stuff on the internet. With time, the anger and hurt will leave. Time heals all things. You are tough enough to handle it with God's help.
2) Oh really wrote: From a historical viewpoint, who is the first worker to have knowingly lied about the truth?
3) Clearday wrote: Personally, I think the origins "lie" evolved rather than actually started with one individual. In the post 1914 era of "let's not talk about Irvine since we booted him out", it was the perfect environment for something innocent like "from the beginning" to be construed or misunderstood as no church origin in 1897 and away it went......
~~~~ Nathan: According to different information which I read in the past I believe the early workers were very SAD when William Irvine left the ministry 1916 and eventually the fellowship.
William Irivne began teaching false doctrines, getting involved with the friends finicial affairs, had problems with women prior his departure. Some of the early senior workers who were chosen NOT to reveal too much of WI human weaknesses or the real reasons why? he left to many of the friends and workers.
The senior workers hope WI would REPENT from his sins, errors, and pride so when he decided to come back he could start with a clean sheet of paper. Most of the early workers really looked up to WI as a Big Brother whom they admired as one of the great leaders among them.
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Post by Alan C on Nov 27, 2007 0:12:44 GMT -5
I think if man loses or gives up his place in this fellowship because he has felt that he has been lied to by man about where who and when, then I would consider that that man has had faith in man rather than in God. If we have faith in God, then that question would be irrelevant. It would have no meaning for us. It is of no consequence as far as the Christ within.
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Post by Joe on Nov 27, 2007 9:08:30 GMT -5
Alan,
I like the way you put it...
I have always felt that if they are shaken by that kind of revelation, they had their faith in the form and not in Christ. And then making that change, they then say they can not have fellowship with us because we are doing that, is further proof. They are projecting on us what they themselves did, and say we are wrong because of it.
It may seem logical, just because they did it that way and they can point to others who maybe say the same things they did, and their outward actions are the same, doesn't mean that the motive is the same and the spirit is the same. That is one problem with the form, you can become formed like all the rest and feel comfortable in it, and not really be of it.
I actually had one that is no longer in fellowship with us tell me about 10 years before he left when talking about the letters sent around; they don't have anything to offer, and their spirit was all wrong. I will never forget it. I can actually see and hear him say it as clear as if he is standing in front of me now. It is a serious warning to me when I think about it.
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selah
Junior Member
Currently Reading 1 Samuel
Posts: 77
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Post by selah on Nov 27, 2007 12:27:31 GMT -5
If one leaves the fellowship, it does not mean he has lost out with God. If that were true, then his faith must have been misplaced on the "fellowship" rather than on God.
The news of there actually being a founder may not be the ONLY reason people have changed their views about the fellowship. That may have just caused them to wonder if there are other things that need to be examined more closely as well.
The bottom line is that it hurts to discover that those you have been required to trust have led you to believe something that isn't true. Having that hurt and working through it, doesn't necessarily equate to losing your trust in God, even if you do leave the fellowship.
When I left, it was not because of William Irvine. I didn't even know about him for 5 years after I left.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by nathanb on Nov 27, 2007 17:46:50 GMT -5
Alan, I like the way you put it... I have always felt that if they are shaken by that kind of revelation, they had their faith in the form and not in Christ. And then making that change, they then say they can not have fellowship with us because we are doing that, is further proof. They are projecting on us what they themselves did, and say we are wrong because of it. It may seem logical, just because they did it that way and they can point to others who maybe say the same things they did, and their outward actions are the same, doesn't mean that the motive is the same and the spirit is the same. That is one problem with the form, you can become formed like all the rest and feel comfortable in it, and not really be of it. I actually had one that is no longer in fellowship with us tell me about 10 years before he left when talking about the letters sent around; they don't have anything to offer, and their spirit was all wrong. I will never forget it. I can actually see and hear him say it as clear as if he is standing in front of me now. It is a serious warning to me when I think about it. Some of the former friends left the fellowship because they found information on the Internet where they read William Irvine claimed he was the first/founder in 1897...
Some left the fellowship for different reasons, and others for personal reasons... Whatever the reasons maybe I wish they find peace within their own hearts, minds, and souls.
For myself I am so thankful for the peace of mind, and within my own heart when I made my choice to serve Jesus as My Lord God and Savior 30 yrs ago.
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Post by Alan C on Nov 28, 2007 3:41:46 GMT -5
You will notice I didn't say that. I have a little trouble understanding [on the the fellowship]? When our fellowship is with God. If that were the case then, they could have had no faith that the fellowship was with God and in God, and if they did have faith that it was, they would have had no need to examine anything, because who can examine anything of God? Led to believe what wasn't true? How can a person have hurt over anything when their fellowship is with God? God is not the giver of hurt but the opposite. How can one feel hurt when their trust is in God? When we consider Christ and what He went through we have no right to entertain any thoughts of hurt or any thing what man has done to us. Our relationship is with God and The Son and them alone. In the fellowship our relationship with God comes first and our fellow travellers second. When I left, it was not because of William Irvine. I didn't even know about him for 5 years after I left. Blessings, Linda
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Post by Alan C on Nov 28, 2007 3:49:24 GMT -5
Alan, I like the way you put it... I have always felt that if they are shaken by that kind of revelation, they had their faith in the form and not in Christ. And then making that change, they then say they can not have fellowship with us because we are doing that, is further proof. They are projecting on us what they themselves did, and say we are wrong because of it. It may seem logical, just because they did it that way and they can point to others who maybe say the same things they did, and their outward actions are the same, doesn't mean that the motive is the same and the spirit is the same. That is one problem with the form, you can become formed like all the rest and feel comfortable in it, and not really be of it. I actually had one that is no longer in fellowship with us tell me about 10 years before he left when talking about the letters sent around; they don't have anything to offer, and their spirit was all wrong. I will never forget it. I can actually see and hear him say it as clear as if he is standing in front of me now. It is a serious warning to me when I think about it. Some of the former friends left the fellowship because they found information on the Internet where they read William Irvine claimed he was the first/founder in 1897...
Some left the fellowship for different reasons, and others for personal reasons... Whatever the reasons maybe I wish they find peace within their own hearts, minds, and souls.
For myself I am so thankful for the peace of mind, and within my own heart when I made my choice to serve Jesus as My Lord God and Savior 30 yrs ago.Trouble is brother that they have said that some men have lied to them and then gone about to believe what some other man has written. It's all about what man has done I can give a hearty amen to your last paragraph.
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selah
Junior Member
Currently Reading 1 Samuel
Posts: 77
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Post by selah on Nov 28, 2007 12:39:19 GMT -5
Hi Alan,
In what I've written the term "fellowship" refers to "the group that meets in the home, has a 2x2 ministry without a home and their belief system". I was not referring to the individual's personal fellowship with God, as in his relationship with God.
You're right, you did not say that when one leaves the fellowship, he is leaving God, but your statement caused me to remember many who have said that and do believe that. (As in leaving the group or system of worship.)
Perhaps when I used the word "fellowship" it confused things. I was trying to say that a "belief system" about God does not equate to God, Himself, for He is a living being. He is there and real in spite of our various beliefs about Him.
If one believed that the Workers were the ONLY true messengers of God, and then found out that the message delivered by them concerning the founder was not true, it would make one question whether or not these were the ONLY true messengers of God. And it would make him wonder if there were other things that the Workers had been mistaken about as well. I think that's reasonable to suggest.
Led to believe that there was NO earthly founder for the little home church group we know today as the f&w.
Alan, surely you have been hurt at times...no? Even God's dealings with us can hurt at times, and we can be hurt by each other sometimes too.
Sometimes we hurt as a reaction to what is happening. God does chastise us, and it isn't always pleasant.
If you never feel hurt, you truly have reached a divine level of being. You are the only person I've ever met (including Jesus) who doesn't hurt sometimes...even in relation to God and His people.
I would not condone wallowing in our sorrows, but I definitely believe in acknowledging them and dealing with them. If we deny ourselves any sense of pain, we cannot grow beyond it. We can mask it or dismiss it, but in honesty we must admit it's still there. Even when we immediately forgive; we have released the offender and ourselves from bitterness, but we still have to work through the process of healing.
I believe that's how it should be. Our relationship with God must be first and foremost in everything we do and believe, for it is by His Holy Spirit we are taught and led. Blessings, Linda
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selah
Junior Member
Currently Reading 1 Samuel
Posts: 77
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Post by selah on Nov 28, 2007 13:05:39 GMT -5
Personally, a large portion of my sorrow was concerning the loss of something I dearly loved. Yes, someTHING. I loved the whole idea that ours was the one and only TRUE fellowship. I loved knowing that I was in association with the RIGHT way, the RIGHT ministers, the RIGHT people...and the RIGHT God.
I remember well the day that pride was shaken and brought down; the day when the illusion I had was exchanged for the real thing...GOD, HIMSELF. Then came the dawning of the revelation of Christ and the infilling of His Spirit. This was a literal new birth...new creation experience. Such joy, cannot be explained, yet there was grief too. I embraced relationship with God, and mourned the loss of something I had depended on and loved so dearly.
The depths of that sorrow would take time to heal. Not only had my whole perspective changed, but because of it, I was cut off from relationship and fellowship with people I'd loved for such a long time. The cost was great. And sometimes that pain would rise up and fill me with great sadness...still does.
I believe Jesus felt the same way when his own people, the Jews, could not..would not...recognize His Father in Him. He wept.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by Alan C on Nov 29, 2007 3:47:15 GMT -5
Hi Alan, Are you saying that the belief of the people of this fellowship is a system? and that the system is theirs? I certainly don't see it as being such, I see it as a living relationship with the Father and the son just like a living relationship that a natural father has with his sons and daughters. I don't see the relationship I have with my family as a system. I believe that it is those whom God has sent are His true messengers. I would ask you who says concerning the founder is not true? God? If our fellowship be not founded of God, it is not God's. If any fellowship or church who's founder is not God, then it is not God's. Simple as that. Be a very brave person to state that. I also would ask if a person believes that and thinks they have found where God really is, why aren't they leaping with joy rather than felling hurt and angry, I'd be elated. Why bother to try and find more what's supposedly wrong? why not just get out? instead of trying to make those who are joyfully in this fellowship feel guilty. I have never been led to believe anything but Jesus being the founder. God won't have anything founded of man as His and it would be ludicrous to even suggest such a thing. Like I have said, If it not founded by God, it is none of His. Yes I have been hurt many times by man but never by God. I have certainly been hurt by man on these boards telling me that I don't have a Father son relationship with the Father. Telling me that my faith is in a system and not in God. I feel God's gentle leadings and I am only to happy to have anything in my life removed by God to be more like Jesus. I certainly can't see how that would hurt.
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geoff
New Member
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Post by geoff on Nov 29, 2007 15:47:40 GMT -5
Alan
Has anyone tried to suggest to you that our fellowship has been in continuous, connected existence since Jesus day? That there have been workers in the same way that we have today, in a continuous succession since Jesus day?
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ram
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Post by ram on Nov 29, 2007 16:45:03 GMT -5
Without addressing any post in particular, but more rather the theme of this thread, we know that "many" formerly and current professing people in different parts of the world have felt they were either lied to (deliberate deception) or were misled (could be misunderstanding for one reason or another) regarding the historic origins of this way.
From the amount of people who fall into this category and considering the varied backgrounds and locations they come from, it is extremely irresponsible to attempt to deny or explain away, or to belittle this fact, which has had an adverse effect upon so many.
It is for the perpetrators or their successors to resolve the consequences of this state of affairs, not those whom it has affected. It is not wrong to be "affected" by these lies or misunderstandings, but it IS "wrong" to "effect" them !
God hates lies. He also hates deception. He regards satan as the Great Deceiver of many. God does not expect those who have been lied to, or misled, whatever the circumstances, to be the ones who are responsible for correcting such matters. Lies or deception are not made right or acceptable by ignoring them simply for the preservation of the spirit, for festering away they certainly will do. Do we need any further proof of this ? Root out satan and you will create an environment for God's spirit.
Correcting these matters are a Christian must, if things are to be put right. They won't just become "right" over a period of time. Effort must be made to address them properly and then God willing the whole issue can be put in the past and with the grace of God people can move on.
Most people can and will forgive where proper repentance is shown. This is where God's grace kicks in. There are two responsibilities here. The first is for those in charge to fully acknowledge the true origins and apologise for any "misunderstandings" past teachings have caused, and the second is for those affected to respond with grace. The matter should then be left in God's hands and for his spirit to lead according to his will. This requires faith. That means we all must trust God. Both sides can then absorb the mistakes of the past.
This would be an excellent way forward for any other issues as well. The fellowship has much to commend it in many ways.
Sometimes we hear the statement "it's God's honest truth" being made, where people are trying to assert the validity of something they are saying. Perhaps in all our dealings we should be attempting to assert "God's honest truth/Truth" in all things.
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selah
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Currently Reading 1 Samuel
Posts: 77
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Post by selah on Nov 29, 2007 20:23:54 GMT -5
Hi Alan,
Thank you for your response. I hope I can clarify a little better. I hope you know it is not my intent to offend. Communicating is the best way I know how to try and understand each other, so I'm grateful for this dialogue.
A Father has a relationship with his children because they are His; they are related to Him; they are born of Him. A Father also has a system with which he cares for and operates his household.
When I was using the term "the fellowship," I was referring to the worship/ministry/lifestyle methods of the f&w...the system they use. Each individual, of course, may or may not have a relationship with the Father, but may still be a part of the worship/ministry/lifestyle of the system (fellowship).
You can see how a lot of misunderstanding can be created by attempting to blend the system and the relationship into one thing.
My relationship with my Dad was personal, individual, unique. I knew the standards and house rules in our home and family. These were not our relationship, but a framework in which we exercised our love to one another.
God founded the truth of redemption and restoration. God gave us Jesus Christ, who is the truth, the way and the life. THAT is what God founded. THAT is where our salvation lies. Fellowships (churches) are simply frameworks in which we can exercise love to/from God, our Father and with each other. LOVE is what bonds our relationship...not the framework or system or method of doing things. And that LOVE was founded by God.
It isn't a matter of finding where God really is, because we know from the Bible that He is omnipresent...He is everywhere, always. If we believe what His word says, we can ask Him to indwell us and He will. THAT's what we really need to know....is He living and active in me?
Those who have discovered a more intimate relationship with God than what they knew before ARE elated. Their hurt and anger concerning the f&w is because in most cases there has been a huge change or loss in their lives. They must go through a grieving process. That which involved the major part of their lives is unavailable to them now. Of course God is able to fulfill their needs, but when people love each other, it's still hard to deal with a barrier between them. Wouldn't you agree?
I can only speak for myself Alan, but there has never, ever been any intent to make anyone feel guilty. I did leave, but not without a tremendous sense of sadness and loss. I knew I was no longer accepted by people I'd loved and known my whole life. That's painful. When I spoke of the pain, it was not to make people feel guilty, but because it was a healthy way to deal with it.
I knew the f&w felt I'd left God behind, which was absolutely untrue. I believe they experienced pain too, because they felt I was rejecting them and the style of worship/ministry/lifestyle that had been so precious.
When I've continued to make f&w aware of some of the scriptural discrepancies, it has not been to rob them of joy, but to bring light and truth to the situation. And, to help f&w see that the group they have is not that much different from other groups. Without acknowledging where we're at, we can't move ahead. All groups are made up of imperfect people, so there will always be imperfection.
As long as the f&w continue to say that their particular group is "better than" the others, there will be a propensity to hide error and mistakes, rather than deal with them openly and honestly.
I do believe God helps us do and plan things according to His will, but ultimately the truth He founded is the good news of redemption and restoration. That truth is taught and revered in a variety of frameworks, all founded by men, but having their purpose and origin in Jesus Christ and His teachings, the household of faith.
I certainly have no right to determine your relationship with God, and never would. Only you and He know that for sure.
Once again, I don't know where you have placed your trust, but it is my obligation, as a member of God's family, to inform people not to place their eternal confidence in anything but the saving power of Jesus Christ.
I believe you. It seems to me that you have an intense love for God and a great desire to please Him.
God has asked me to make choices that did hurt. It seemed like such a sacrifice at the time, but I discovered later on that by comparison to the joy and beauty He brought me to...it was nothing at all.
God always gives His best to those who leave the choices up to Him. Through the years I've learned to trust Him more and more; it's easier now to just trust HIM. But, it meant letting go of everything else, including all the frameworks. Are they all wrong? No. Are they all right? No. Is any one, the right one? No. ONLY HE is the TRUTH, the WAY and the LIFE, and in Him we place our confidence.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by Alan C on Nov 30, 2007 3:20:26 GMT -5
Alan Has anyone tried to suggest to you that our fellowship has been in continuous, connected existence since Jesus day? That there have been workers in the same way that we have today, in a continuous succession since Jesus day? It has never been suggested to me of any continuous physical fellowship. But it has been told to me and I agree that there has been a continuous spiritual fellowship. I have no way of knowing that there has been workers in the same way that we have today, in a continuous succession since Jesus day. But I would have to say that I would not be supprised that there have been at times those who worship God in that manner.
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Post by Alan C on Nov 30, 2007 3:55:13 GMT -5
Hi Alan, Thank you for your response. I hope I can clarify a little better. I hope you know it is not my intent to offend. Communicating is the best way I know how to try and understand each other, so I'm grateful for this dialogue. A Father has a relationship with his children because they are His; they are related to Him; they are born of Him. A Father also has a system with which he cares for and operates his household. When I was using the term "the fellowship," I was referring to the worship/ministry/lifestyle methods of the f&w...the system they use. Each individual, of course, may or may not have a relationship with the Father, but may still be a part of the worship/ministry/lifestyle of the system (fellowship). You can see how a lot of misunderstanding can be created by attempting to blend the system and the relationship into one thing. My relationship with my Dad was personal, individual, unique. I knew the standards and house rules in our home and family. These were not our relationship, but a framework in which we exercised our love to one another. God founded the truth of redemption and restoration. God gave us Jesus Christ, who is the truth, the way and the life. THAT is what God founded. THAT is where our salvation lies. Fellowships (churches) are simply frameworks in which we can exercise love to/from God, our Father and with each other. LOVE is what bonds our relationship...not the framework or system or method of doing things. And that LOVE was founded by God. It isn't a matter of finding where God really is, because we know from the Bible that He is omnipresent...He is everywhere, always. If we believe what His word says, we can ask Him to indwell us and He will. THAT's what we really need to know....is He living and active in me? Those who have discovered a more intimate relationship with God than what they knew before ARE elated. Their hurt and anger concerning the f&w is because in most cases there has been a huge change or loss in their lives. They must go through a grieving process. That which involved the major part of their lives is unavailable to them now. Of course God is able to fulfill their needs, but when people love each other, it's still hard to deal with a barrier between them. Wouldn't you agree? I can only speak for myself Alan, but there has never, ever been any intent to make anyone feel guilty. I did leave, but not without a tremendous sense of sadness and loss. I knew I was no longer accepted by people I'd loved and known my whole life. That's painful. When I spoke of the pain, it was not to make people feel guilty, but because it was a healthy way to deal with it. I knew the f&w felt I'd left God behind, which was absolutely untrue. I believe they experienced pain too, because they felt I was rejecting them and the style of worship/ministry/lifestyle that had been so precious. When I've continued to make f&w aware of some of the scriptural discrepancies, it has not been to rob them of joy, but to bring light and truth to the situation. And, to help f&w see that the group they have is not that much different from other groups. Without acknowledging where we're at, we can't move ahead. All groups are made up of imperfect people, so there will always be imperfection. As long as the f&w continue to say that their particular group is "better than" the others, there will be a propensity to hide error and mistakes, rather than deal with them openly and honestly. I do believe God helps us do and plan things according to His will, but ultimately the truth He founded is the good news of redemption and restoration. That truth is taught and revered in a variety of frameworks, all founded by men, but having their purpose and origin in Jesus Christ and His teachings, the household of faith. I certainly have no right to determine your relationship with God, and never would. Only you and He know that for sure. Once again, I don't know where you have placed your trust, but it is my obligation, as a member of God's family, to inform people not to place their eternal confidence in anything but the saving power of Jesus Christ. I believe you. It seems to me that you have an intense love for God and a great desire to please Him. God has asked me to make choices that did hurt. It seemed like such a sacrifice at the time, but I discovered later on that by comparison to the joy and beauty He brought me to...it was nothing at all. God always gives His best to those who leave the choices up to Him. Through the years I've learned to trust Him more and more; it's easier now to just trust HIM. But, it meant letting go of everything else, including all the frameworks. Are they all wrong? No. Are they all right? No. Is any one, the right one? No. ONLY HE is the TRUTH, the WAY and the LIFE, and in Him we place our confidence. Blessings, Linda Linda I some how lost what I had written half way through, but I am tied now and want to go to bed and will try again tomorrow night. hopefully. But will add this verse. Ephesians 5:27 - that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
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