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Post by harborlight on Jan 6, 2008 18:35:24 GMT -5
These verses in Luke 22 are a mystery. Studying the surrounding scripture, and further into the book of Acts one can see that the disciples showed no sign of violence or self-defense such as Del pointed out. The lifestyle of the disciples and apostles appears to change in Acts. All who owned houses or land sold it, and they had "all things in common". There doesn't seem to be a distinction between apostles and the disciples except for the fact the apostles seem to be traveling more to spread the gospel. Others, such as Philip had a ministery locally, with some travels. He was an evangelist by description, yet had a home and family. He baptized the Ethiopian Eunoch. This supports, to me, the concept of MANY ministries, not just the apostleship in order to spread the gospel.
I apologize Del, if I sounded antagonistic in my above posts. I don't resent the workers ministry. What I resent is that most still preach and teach against other ministries, elevating themselves as the only ministry acceptable to God. I believe this is a false doctrine. There are many workers I can remember that were kind, loving, and assisted me in my walk with God. There were many more, though that spent so much time degrading other ministries in their gospel meetings, that I left meetings angry & frustrated for many years. The friends continue this behavior in the fellowship meetings. The children are still being taught this poisonous lie.
Paul himself said that he had a right to take collections and live by the gospel. Collections were taken from the churches to help the ministry and the poor throughout Acts. Paul chose to take breaks and make tents to earn his way through. He said also that he had a right to take a wife, as did Cephas and the "OTHER APOSTLES."
I grew up believing that a worker entered the ministry for life. They "GAVE" their whole lives to God, left "ALL" . Forever. Period. I was there in meetings, as a child, teen, and a young adult when the scripture about the rich young man who came to Jesus for salvation was used as a depiction of entering the ministry. Like others, it puzzled me. Since selling all that he had, giving it to the poor, and following Jesus was his only way of salvation, if he had done this and quit later, going back to working to make riches, would he lose his salvation? That would mean that all the workers that quit the ministry today, would lose their salvation if they turned back as well. Instead, they marry, buy homes, have families, and some continue to go to meetings. If the commitment is life-long, as we were taught, why are they allowed to participate in the church when they quit ? My grandfather, who was an elder for years, used to chuckle and say "thoses workers, they can't make up their mind about anything. I've seen them change their minds so many times!"
So I have learned, that the workers don't always interpret the scriptures correctly. Their interpretations change too. I rely more on "normal" Christian interpretations, that have proven true for years in other Christian denominations.
Harborlight
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Post by Alan C on Jan 7, 2008 1:02:39 GMT -5
What is a normal Christian interpretation And how have they been proven true? And what is meant By other Christian denominations? If you really know your Bible you would know that there cannot be seperate denominations in Jesus.
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Post by Alan C on Jan 7, 2008 1:09:37 GMT -5
Del - in your post above you said: How do we discern Jesus's intent? Also, in the instance of differing opinions, how do we know who's correct? That is extremely easy. It is all in Jesus, the Christ in you makes things very clear what is true, His intent and He shows what is mans interpretation. We say that Jesus is the only correct one, so we don't look to man for his opinion or interpretation
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Post by nathanb on Jan 7, 2008 2:02:18 GMT -5
1) These verses in Luke 22 are a mystery. Studying the surrounding scripture, and further into the book of Acts one can see that the disciples showed no sign of violence or self-defense such as Del pointed out. ~~ N9: Welcome, Harborlight... Luke 22 is very simple to understand as Del has pointed out... The book of Acts showed us the same Itinerant ministry which Jesus sent out the 12 and 70 apostles Matthew 10 and Luke 10 has "CONTINUED" through out the book of Acts and down the ages...
We have historical document facts of men and women who have continued Jesus and the apostles homeless Itinerant ministry through down the ages.... prior to the time of William Irivne, John Long, and John Govan, the Faith Mission founder in 1886.2) The lifestyle of the disciples and apostles appears to change in Acts. All who owned houses or land sold it, and they had "all things in common". There doesn't seem to be a distinction between apostles and the disciples except for the fact the apostles seem to be traveling more to spread the gospel. Others, such as Philip had a ministery locally, with some travels. He was an evangelist by description, yet had a home and family. He baptized the Ethiopian Eunoch. This supports, to me, the concept of MANY ministries, not just the apostleship in order to spread the gospel. ~~~ N9: In the book of Acts we read more details the responsibilities and the differences between an apostle and a disciple more clearly.
The apostles= were called to dedicate their lives in preaching the Gospel of Salvation through believing and confessing Jesus Christ is the Lord. They were preachers of the gospel, evangelists, teachers, pastors, shepherds...
The apostles were to SELL ALL and the Disciples to use ALL that they have to support those in the ministry so they could be FREE from the cares of life and dedicate their lives in the Ministry and helping the Church of God in all they could.
This way the burden is NOT too GREAT! for those in the ministry and the friends to bear... The ministry without a home and the church meet in the homes of the believers. Both need each other for support.
Just like under the Old Testament time... the 11 tribes of Israelites share their wealth with the Levites tribe so they could take cares the Temple chores, such as aninals sacrifices, etc...
The apostles were to set up home churches, appointed church elders, solve problems within the church, teaching true doctrines, warn others about false teachers.
The disciples were followers of Christ who were to support the ministry to meet all of their needs... they had evangelists (Philip, Stephen and others among them), pastors church elders, teachers among them.
The apostles need the disciples and the disciples need the apostles. The apostles and disciples work TOGETHER as a TEAM effort. All memebers in the body of Christ are needed and important... even the littles toes, or the little fingers play an important roles in the body of Christ.3) I apologize Del, if I sounded antagonistic in my above posts. I don't resent the workers ministry. What I resent is that most still preach and teach against other ministries, elevating themselves as the only ministry acceptable to God. I believe this is a false doctrine. There are many workers I can remember that were kind, loving, and assisted me in my walk with God. There were many more, though that spent so much time degrading other ministries in their gospel meetings, that I left meetings angry & frustrated for many years. The friends continue this behavior in the fellowship meetings. The children are still being taught this poisonous lie. ~~~ N9: When I was in the work my older companions encouraged me to preach Jesus is the Truth and the Way to God.... and allow the Holy Spirit does the convincing and conviction what is right and wrong.4) Paul himself said that he had a right to take collections and live by the gospel. Collections were taken from the churches to help the ministry and the poor throughout Acts. Paul chose to take breaks and make tents to earn his way through. He said also that he had a right to take a wife, as did Cephas and the "OTHER APOSTLES." I grew up believing that a worker entered the ministry for life. They "GAVE" their whole lives to God, left "ALL" . Forever. Period. ~~~ N9: The workers do take collections for the poor friends and workers in the third world countries and in USA for the friends who loss everything in the Hurrican, earthquakes, floods, and wild fires.
Yes, when I start in the work I wanted to die in the ministry... but we know things do NOT always work out as we plan or want. God doesn't shoot his wounded workers! God continues to use them wherever they are in life. Once a servant always a servant to God. It tells us He loves His own unto the end.
We might forsake God but He NEVER forsakes us.5) I was there in meetings, as a child, teen, and a young adult when the scripture about the rich young man who came to Jesus for salvation was used as a depiction of entering the ministry. Like others, it puzzled me. Since selling all that he had, giving it to the poor, and following Jesus was his only way of salvation, if he had done this and quit later, going back to working to make riches, would he lose his salvation? That would mean that all the workers that quit the ministry today, would lose their salvation if they turned back as well. ~~~ N9: Salvation is a gift... The rich young man going in the ministry that was Christ's calling for him! NOT every disciple of Jesus were called to be an apostle=preachers of the Gospel...
I know many workers who left the work including myself did NOT loose our Salvation... Many ex-workers have become church elders, open homes for the workers, some have convention grounds. As I said before, "God doesn't shoot His wounded workers!" He continue to use them wherever they are in life.6) Instead, they marry, buy homes, have families, and some continue to go to meetings. If the commitment is life-long, as we were taught, why are they allowed to participate in the church when they quit? My grandfather, who was an elder for years, used to chuckle and say "thoses workers, they can't make up their mind about anything. I've seen them change their minds so many times!" ~~~ N9: You have to be in the work to understand the stress, the hardship, and the battles that they fight daily to stay in the work... to understand what the work is all about.
Just like the soldiers went to Iraq came back wounded without legs, arms... are we going to say to them can't buy homes, or get married because you quit.... This is what some of the friends and workers believe and that is WRONG! thinking.
Remember, they have given their best! in the front line... Don't shoot your wounded soldiers because they still can be very useful at another place but not in the front line. Perphaps, God loves them more! for laiding down their lives for Him.7) So I have learned, that the workers don't always interpret the scriptures correctly. Their interpretations change too. I rely more on "normal" Christian interpretations, that have proven true for years in other Christian denominations. ~~~ N9: The workers are still learning... I don't think anyone of them claim that he/she has All the right answers all the time.
I could remember some of the sermons I preached when I started in the work were off tracks... but as time goes on with the help of God and others who help me to get my understanding on the right tracks. Thanks, goodness for all the help which I have received in understanding the word of God.... I still have a lot to learn yet.
Thanks, for posting harborlight. Keep your light shining brightly.
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Post by harborlight on Jan 7, 2008 13:38:44 GMT -5
~~ N9: Welcome, Harborlight... Luke 22 is very simple to understand as Del has pointed out... I'm glad you are settled with your understanding of Luke 22 Nathan. You are one who has taken up his purse, sword, and scrip again too.The book of Acts showed us the same Itinerant ministry which Jesus sent out the 12 and 70 apostles Matthew 10 and Luke 10 has "CONTINUED" through out the book of Acts and down the ages... Yes Nathan, and there were other ministries in place as well. Such as Philip the evangelist who had a ministry. Such as Ananias, such as Paul, who was not converted by the 2x2 ministry; who supported himself with his trade. Such as Peter who had a home and family while he was in the ministry. Because the disciples lived in commune style in Acts, they owned all communally, and each apostle and disciple, regardless of their marital, social or economic status were given as "they had need". The rich shared with the poor among them!
Many churches today send missions which are supported communally by the laity. These missionaries are called by God leave "all" behind to go oversees or minister locally for the sake of the gospel. Many young adults do this, unmarried, before they have homes. They do this for free, without charge. I believe You were one of these, Nathan. Most of the workers do this too, until they settle and have a home and family. This apostleship exists in many churches.
We have historical document facts of men and women who have continued Jesus and the apostles homeless Itinerant ministry through down the ages.... prior to the time of William Irivne, John Long, and John Govan, the Faith Mission founder in 1886.
Yes, we do. The apostleship is one of the many ministries documented in Acts. These various ministries including the apostleship that are being practiced by many churches today.
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1 Corinthians 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;~~~ N9: In the book of Acts we read more details the responsibilities and the differences between an apostle and a disciple more clearly. Philip the evangelist (disciple) had a family, was a deacon AND baptized converts. Paul the apostle made tents for a living. Aquila and Priscilla attended church services in the synagogue where they met Ananias preaching the gospel. The apostles= were called to dedicate their lives in preaching the Gospel of Salvation through believing and confessing Jesus Christ is the Lord. They were preachers of the gospel, evangelists, teachers, pastors, shepherds... Yes, but for how long are the apostles considered "apostles". You dedicated your life for a lifetime, yet you are no longer an apostle Nathan. The apostles were to SELL ALL and the Disciples to use ALL that they have to support those in the ministry so they could be FREE from the cares of life and dedicate their lives in the Ministry and helping the Church of God in all they could. This way the burden is NOT too GREAT! for those in the ministry and the friends to bear... The ministry without a home and the church meet in the homes of the believers. Both need each other for support. Yes. In many other churches, the burden is not too great either. In churches that properly manage and account for their finances, the laity is aware of where the money is going to support these various needs. Just like under the Old Testament time... the 11 tribes of Israelites share their wealth with the Levites tribe so they could take cares the Temple chores, such as aninals sacrifices, etc... Yes. This is still true in many churches today.The apostles were to set up home churches, appointed church elders, solve problems within the church, teaching true doctrines, warn others about false teachers. I agree. The apostles were also warned about false teachers who would be AMONG THEM. Many churches today have home churches, elders, counselors who solve problems, teachers of doctrines, etc. They also warn their people to beware of false teachings.The disciples were followers of Christ who were to support the ministry to meet all of their needs... they had evangelists (Philip, Stephen and others among them), pastors church elders, teachers among them. Yes, other fellowships have "Philip's and Stephen's" among them tooThe apostles need the disciples and the disciples need the apostles. The apostles and disciples work TOGETHER as a TEAM effort. All members in the body of Christ are needed and important... even the littles toes, or the little fingers play an important roles in the body of Christ. Amen.~~~ N9: When I was in the work my older companions encouraged me to preach Jesus is the Truth and the Way to God.... and allow the Holy Spirit does the convincing and conviction what is right and wrong. YES! I agree....that's great to hear! Some workers are not legalistic, but allow the Holy Spirit to lead. ~~~ N9: The workers do take collections for the poor friends and workers in the third world countries and in USA for the friends who loss everything in the Hurrican, earthquakes, floods, and wild fires. This is great to hear! In all the 30 years I professed, I never heard one whisper about a collection being taken for a specific purpose, or an accounting on where money was distributed. Can you give me a few examples of this? Yes, when I start in the work I wanted to die in the ministry... but we know things do NOT always work out as we plan or want. God doesn't shoot his wounded workers! God continues to use them wherever they are in life. Once a servant always a servant to God. It tells us He loves His own unto the end.[/color] We might forsake God but He NEVER forsakes us. ~~~ N9: Salvation is a gift... The rich young man going in the ministry that was Christ's calling for him! NOT every disciple of Jesus were called to be an apostle=preachers of the Gospel... I know many workers who left the work including myself did NOT loose our Salvation... Many ex-workers have become church elders, open homes for the workers, some have convention grounds. As I said before, "God doesn't shoot His wounded workers!" He continue to use them wherever they are in life. yes, as have has many divorcees. No God doesn't shoot his wounded workers. The workers themselves sometimes shoot their own. Salvation is a gift that no man can take away. When people leave the meetings to go to another church, no one has the right to say if they have lost their salvation or not. Only God does, and those who make such judgements are elevating themselves to the place of God.~~~ N9: You have to be in the work to understand the stress, the hardship, and the battles that they fight daily to stay in the work... to understand what the work is all about. Sounds like the stress level in a marriage. Some make it to the end, others don't.Just like the soldiers went to Iraq came back wounded without legs, arms... are we going to say to them can't buy homes, or get married because you quit.... This is what some of the friends and workers believe and that is WRONG! thinking. This doesn't make any sense. How does a soldier in Iraq relate to scriptural teachings in regard to the ministry of Christ?Remember, they have given their best! in the front line... Don't shoot your wounded soldiers because they still can be very useful at another place but not in the front line. Perphaps, God loves them more! for laiding down their lives for Him. Perhaps you think God loves you more than he does others because you were in the ministry at one time? WOW.~~~ N9: The workers are still learning... I don't think anyone of them claim that he/she has All the right answers all the time. The workers would be wise to consider some other churches interpretations of scripture while they are learning. They are not given a special interpretation, as the following scripture tells us:
2 Peter 1:19-21(King James Version)
19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.I could remember some of the sermons I preached when I started in the work were off tracks... but as time goes on with the help of God and others who help me to get my understanding on the right tracks. Thanks, goodness for all the help which I have received in understanding the word of God.... I still have a lot to learn yet. Yes, other churches feel the same way about their dear ministers too. It is a good thing, since none of us are perfect, are we?Thanks, for posting harborlight. Keep your light shining brightly. Thank you Nathan, for the encouragement. let's "keep on, keeping on!" Harborlight
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Post by nathanb on Jan 8, 2008 0:35:09 GMT -5
~~ N9: Welcome, Harborlight... Luke 22 is very simple to understand as Del has pointed out...
1) Harborlight said: I'm glad you are settled with your understanding of Luke 22 Nathan. You are one who has taken up his purse, sword, and scrip again too.
~~~ N9: Well, I have studied, and discussed with others about Luke 22 on different message boards before so I am happy with the answered and conclusion which I came to.
Harborlight, you need to study Matthew 10 and Luke 10 instructions why Jesus gave to the 12 and 70 messengers when He sent them out on a brief missions.. then you'll have a better understanding about Luke 22.
Those of us have left the work MUST start all over again from scratch! because none of the friend is going to support or help us all the time like they did when we were active workers.
N9 wrote: The book of Acts showed us the same Itinerant ministry which Jesus sent out the 12 and 70 apostles Matthew 10 and Luke 10 has "CONTINUED" through out the book of Acts and down the ages...
2) HL said: Yes Nathan, and there were other ministries in place as well. Such as Philip the evangelist who had a ministry. Such as Ananias, such as Paul, who was not converted by the 2x2 ministry; who supported himself with his trade. Such as Peter who had a home and family while he was in the ministry. Because the disciples lived in commune style in Acts, they owned all communally, and each apostle and disciple, regardless of their marital, social or economic status were given as "they had need". The rich shared with the poor among them!
~~~ N9: Philip, a disciple... Ananias, another disciple of Jesus... We don't know how Philip and Ananias became a Christians! but this we know they must have heard it from Jesus, the apostles or one of his disciples.
Paul, first heard the Gospel through Stephen, a disciple of Jesus in Acts chapter 6 and 7... All of the converts in the Gospel and the book of Acts had HEARD from a LIVING witnessess of Christ whether through the apostles or the disciples of Christ.
I agree with you God has given the apostles a special ministry to fill in the body of Christ.... He also give the disciples a special ministry to fill in the body of Christ also. Both ministries are to work together as a TEAM.
3) HL said: Many churches today send missions which are supported communally by the laity. These missionaries are called by God leave "all" behind to go oversees or minister locally for the sake of the gospel. Many young adults do this, unmarried, before they have homes. They do this for free, without charge. I believe You were one of these, Nathan. Most of the workers do this too, until they settle and have a home and family. This apostleship exists in many churches.
~~~ N9: Yes, I know and have read some of these missionaries you're talking about BUT they are NOTHING like the 2x2 workers at all. The 2x2s Itinerant workers are one of a kind.
N9 wrote: We have historical document facts of men and women who have continued Jesus and the apostles homeless Itinerant ministry through down the ages.... prior to the time of William Irivne, John Long, and John Govan, the Faith Mission founder in 1886.
4) HL said: Yes, we do. The apostleship is one of the many ministries documented in Acts. These various ministries including the apostleship that are being practiced by many churches today.
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1 Corinthians 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;[/color]
~~~ N9: I haven't met or seen any ministry today out there come close to the 2x2s workers Itinerant ministry. Yes, there are many godly preachers, sound teachers out there because I read some of their writings.
N9 wrote: In the book of Acts we read more details the responsibilities and the differences between an apostle and a disciple more clearly.
Philip the evangelist (disciple) had a family, was a deacon AND baptized converts. Paul the apostle made tents for a living. Aquila and Priscilla attended church services in the synagogue where they met Ananias preaching the gospel.
The apostles= were called to dedicate their lives in preaching the Gospel of Salvation through believing and confessing Jesus Christ is the Lord. They were preachers of the gospel, evangelists, teachers, pastors, shepherds...
5) HB said: Yes, but for how long are the apostles considered "apostles". You dedicated your life for a lifetime, yet you are no longer an apostle Nathan.
~~~ N9 wrote: Apostle means sent ones.... Once they are sent of God they are always His... unless they betrayed God like Judas did.... Once apostle you are always his.... your apostleship doesn't END once you leave the work... I know many ex-workers have a very useful lives after they leave the work. N9 wrote: The apostles were to SELL ALL and the Disciples to use ALL that they have to support those in the ministry so they could be FREE from the cares of life and dedicate their lives in the Ministry and helping the Church of God in all they could.
This way the burden is NOT too GREAT! for those in the ministry and the friends to bear... The ministry without a home and the church meet in the homes of the believers. Both need each other for support.
6) HL wrote: Yes. In many other churches, the burden is not too great either. In churches that properly manage and account for their finances, the laity is aware of where the money is going to support these various needs.
~~~~ N9: The workers do not have any burden of keeping track their finances because they have very little to worry about.
N9 wrote: Just like under the Old Testament time... the 11 tribes of Israelites share their wealth with the Levites tribe so they could take cares the Temple chores, such as aninals sacrifices, etc...
7) HL wrote: Yes. This is still true in many churches today.
~~~ N9: Yes, I agree many of these churches have their own methods of taken care their preachers. They paid most of their preachers with monthly salary, housing, insurance, health cares, etc.... That's what they think and believe is best for them. N9 wrote: The apostles were to set up home churches, appointed church elders, solve problems within the church, teaching true doctrines, warn others about false teachers.
8) HL wrote: I agree. The apostles were also warned about false teachers who would be AMONG THEM. Many churches today have home churches, elders, counselors who solve problems, teachers of doctrines, etc. They also warn their people to beware of false teachings.
~~~ N9: Yes, I too agree that Every church does this... and this is a good thing to do.
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Post by nathanb on Jan 8, 2008 0:46:04 GMT -5
N9 wrote: The apostles need the disciples and the disciples need the apostles. The apostles and disciples work TOGETHER as a TEAM effort. All members in the body of Christ are needed and important... even the littles toes, or the little fingers play an important roles in the body of Christ.
9) HL wrote: Amen.
N9 wrote: When I was in the work my older companions encouraged me to preach Jesus is the Truth and the Way to God.... and allow the Holy Spirit does the convincing and conviction what is right and wrong.
10) HL wrote: YES! I agree....that's great to hear! Some workers are not legalistic, but allow the Holy Spirit to lead.
~~~ N9: I continue to pray that there will be more Spirit lead workers among us than the legalistic ones.... the legalistic ones can stunt the grow of the friends and other workers who follow their examples.
N9 wrote: The workers do take collections for the poor friends and workers in the third world countries and in USA for the friends who loss everything in the Hurrican, earthquakes, floods, and wild fires.
11) BL wrote: This is great to hear! In all the 30 years I professed, I never heard one whisper about a collection being taken for a specific purpose, or an accounting on where money was distributed. Can you give me a few examples of this?
~~~ N9: Yes, we have a StandingTrue email list where we read the workers missions around the world so we know what's going in those countries... Some of the workers have pleaded for help and the in USA friends have sent the money to certain workers and they distributed among the needy.
Africa war torn countries, South America with the where the earthquakes occured recently, wild fires in California, the friends who caught in the hurricans seasons, etc..
Some of the friends have volunteered to serve for the poor at thanksgiving times. I have given money every month to different charities, the needy, the workers, ex-workers and the friends. I know of different have done the same.
N9 wrote: Yes, when I start in the work I wanted to die in the ministry... but we know things do NOT always work out as we plan or want. God doesn't shoot his wounded workers! God continues to use them wherever they are in life. Once a servant always a servant to God. It tells us He loves His own unto the end. We might forsake God but He NEVER forsakes us.
Salvation is a gift... The rich young man going in the ministry that was Christ's calling for him! NOT every disciple of Jesus were called to be an apostle=preachers of the Gospel...
I know many workers who left the work including myself did NOT loose our Salvation... Many ex-workers have become church elders, open homes for the workers, some have convention grounds. As I said before, "God doesn't shoot His wounded workers!" He continue to use them wherever they are in life.
12) HL wrote: yes, as we have many divorcees. No God doesn't shoot his wounded workers. The workers themselves sometimes shoot their own. Salvation is a gift that no man can take away. When people leave the meetings to go to another church, no one has the right to say if they have lost their salvation or not. Only God does, and those who make such judgements are elevating themselves to the place of God.
~~~ N9: I agree about nobody has the right to SAY so and so LOST his/her Salvation because we don't know that for sure. Only God knows the answer who has left their FIRST love.
N9 wrote: You have to be in the work to understand the stress, the hardship, and the battles that they fight daily to stay in the work... to understand what the work is all about.
13) HL wrote: Sounds like the stress level in a marriage. Some make it to the end, others don't.
N9: wrote Just like the soldiers went to Iraq came back wounded without legs, arms... are we going to say to them can't buy homes, or get married because you quit.... This is what some of the friends and workers believe and that is WRONG! thinking.
14) HL wrote: This doesn't make any sense. How does a soldier in Iraq relate to scriptural teachings in regard to the ministry of Christ?
~~~ N9: Let me try to explain it better. This is a battle field between God's soldiers Vs. Satan's army of demons, the world, and the flesh... Paul wrote to Timothy, his younger fellow-worker.... thou therefore ENDURE hardship as a good soldier! of Jesus Christ. No man serving as soldier gets involved himself with the affairs of this life; he wants to please Him (God) who has chosen him to be a soldier. (II Timothy 2:2,3)
God's servants are like unto soldiers fighting on the front line some have been wounded severely with many scars to show forth so they are NOT able to be in the work (front line) any longer. They are going home.... you don't want to tell these brave workers-soldiers they are failure, useless man or woman to society when they return homes.
N9 wrote: Remember, they have given their best! in the front line... Don't shoot your wounded soldiers because they still can be very useful at another place but not in the front line. Perphaps, God loves them more! for laiding down their lives for Him.
15) HL wrote: Perhaps you think God loves you more than he does others because you were in the ministry at one time? WOW.
~~~ N9: No, I did NOT say anything like that at all.... What I am saying is DON'T look down on those who are no longer in the work! God still love them and they are still useful to Him where they are. Some of the friends and workers have looked down the ex-workers as total failure and that is further from the truth. To me the exworkers are winners! because they gave it a try and their best.
N9 wrote: The workers are still learning... I don't think anyone of them claim that he/she has All the right answers all the time.
16) HL wrote: The workers would be wise to consider some other churches interpretations of scripture while they are learning. They are not given a special interpretation, as the following scripture tells us:
II Peter 1:19-21(King James Version) We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
~~~ N9: I agree with you... I have read and heard many good sermons and sound teachings from many non-2x2s preachers.
N9 wrote: I could remember some of the sermons I preached when I started in the work were off tracks... but as time goes on with the help of God and others who help me to get my understanding on the right tracks. Thanks, goodness for all the help which I have received in understanding the word of God.... I still have a lot to learn yet.
17) HL wrote: Yes, other churches feel the same way about their dear ministers too. It is a good thing, since none of us are perfect, are we?
~~~ N9: I agree with you again... nobody is perfect so let's focus our eyes on Jesus and point others to follow Him as our Lord, God and Savior.
18) HL wrote: Thank you Nathan, for the encouragement. let's "keep on, keeping on! Harborlight
~~~ N9: No, Thank you for sharing your understanding on different issues, teachings... none of us have all the answers but we can learn from each other experiences. and understanding.
You too, Harbor! keep standing true to God no matters what my friend.
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Post by harborlight on Jan 9, 2008 11:09:14 GMT -5
What is a normal Christian interpretation And how have they been proven true? And what is meant By other Christian denominations? If you really know your Bible you would know that there cannot be separate denominations in Jesus. Hi Alan, I got distracted with Nathan's post and neglected to answer your questions... Without getting into repeating myself too much from other posts, I would say that to me: "normal"Christian interpretation would be the collective opinion of other churches on doctrinal issues, many of which the f&w do not agree with. Perhaps "majority" would be a better word. I don't believe that a certain group of Christians has a "private" interpretation of the scripture. I believe these truths have been proven true by the many Born again Christians that are living powerful lives for Christ of which are not a part of the f&w group. I have witness the work of the Holy Spirit in others Christians who have never been to meeting. To me, separate denominations means nothing more than a group of professing Christian people who have assumed a name for their group such as "Christian Conventions" or "Assembly of Christians Assuming this name only", etc. Don't get me wrong...I don't think there is a perfect church out there. Some are healthier than others, but they all need correction. Revelations depicts this in the message to the "churches". They all had things that displeased God, and I don't think the "Christian Conventions" church is any exception. But God is working in each person's life individually, regardless of the faults of the church. I believe if heresy is being upheld in a group of Christian people, that the Holy Spirit troubles those in the church and reveals this. If the false doctrine is not is not addressed, the people suffer. For example: From the time I was in my late teens, the Holy Spirit troubled me about the doctrine the f&w taught about those in meetings being the only ones saved. I never had peace with this, even though I stayed in the group for another 20 years or so. The fruit of this doctrine is being exposed now for the false doctrine it is, and the f&w church is suffering for upholding this doctrine. I believe God is trying to correct this, and has been trying for years. The fruit of this doctrine, to me, is not good fruit. Look at all the damage the legalism surrounding this doctrine has done to many lives. The workers have argued this amongst themselves for years, and many have not taken heed to the Holy Spirit. The damage to the church is great because of this. These are just a few of the things that I feel the Holy Spirit has revealed to me. Harborlight
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Post by bluejay on Jan 10, 2008 9:46:34 GMT -5
Del - in your post above you said: How do we discern Jesus's intent? Also, in the instance of differing opinions, how do we know who's correct? That is extremely easy. It is all in Jesus, the Christ in you makes things very clear what is true, His intent and He shows what is mans interpretation. We say that Jesus is the only correct one, so we don't look to man for his opinion or interpretation Thanks for your reply Alan. With all due respect, I certainly don't see things as 'very clear'. I see obvious indications of differences in interpreting Scripture among Christ followers, even within the fellowship. I've communicated with enough people to see that, while we all believe whole-heartedly in Jesus and the salvation He provided for all sinners, we (believers) disagree on other points of doctrine. We all believe and want to obey the Christ within us .... and we all follow His voice as we hear it. So how do we end up in disagreement on some pretty vital issues? Issues that affect who who we're able to meet with, and how we live our daily lives as Christ followers. Harborlight is one example of my above question. Obviously they have a love for Jesus, and a desire to follow His Spirit. Yet their "revelation" from the Holy Spirit doesn't always line up with Del's, Nathan's and yours (for example). How does this happen?
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delh
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by delh on Jan 11, 2008 12:26:58 GMT -5
What is a normal Christian interpretation And how have they been proven true? And what is meant By other Christian denominations? If you really know your Bible you would know that there cannot be separate denominations in Jesus. Hi Alan, I got distracted with Nathan's post and neglected to answer your questions... Without getting into repeating myself too much from other posts, I would say that to me: "normal"Christian interpretation would be the collective opinion of other churches on doctrinal issues, many of which the f&w do not agree with. Perhaps "majority" would be a better word. I don't believe that a certain group of Christians has a "private" interpretation of the scripture. I believe these truths have been proven true by the many Born again Christians that are living powerful lives for Christ of which are not a part of the f&w group. I have witness the work of the Holy Spirit in others Christians who have never been to meeting. To me, separate denominations means nothing more than a group of professing Christian people who have assumed a name for their group such as "Christian Conventions" or "Assembly of Christians Assuming this name only", etc. Don't get me wrong...I don't think there is a perfect church out there. Some are healthier than others, but they all need correction. Revelations depicts this in the message to the "churches". They all had things that displeased God, and I don't think the "Christian Conventions" church is any exception. But God is working in each person's life individually, regardless of the faults of the church. I believe if heresy is being upheld in a group of Christian people, that the Holy Spirit troubles those in the church and reveals this. If the false doctrine is not is not addressed, the people suffer. For example: From the time I was in my late teens, the Holy Spirit troubled me about the doctrine the f&w taught about those in meetings being the only ones saved. I never had peace with this, even though I stayed in the group for another 20 years or so. The fruit of this doctrine is being exposed now for the false doctrine it is, and the f&w church is suffering for upholding this doctrine. I believe God is trying to correct this, and has been trying for years. The fruit of this doctrine, to me, is not good fruit. Look at all the damage the legalism surrounding this doctrine has done to many lives. The workers have argued this amongst themselves for years, and many have not taken heed to the Holy Spirit. The damage to the church is great because of this. These are just a few of the things that I feel the Holy Spirit has revealed to me. Harborlight Your response to Alan is interesting. You seem to condemn some workers for excluding other "Christians" for various reasons and yet you state that you believe these truths have been proven true by the many Born again Christians that are living powerful lives for Christ of which are not a part of the f&w group.. Are you then excluding the vast majority of "Christians" who are not of the Born again Christians type? Let's face it, of the billions or so who take the name of Christ, only a very small minority would even know what you are talking about when you say Born again Christians . They have never been taught it nor have they experienced it. I grew up in a "major" Christian denomination, and the vast majority of Jesus basic teaching were foreign to me. I am thankful that I no longer have to rely on their profound interpretation of the scriptures. I am certainly unsure how you decide what is a normal or majority Christian interpretation of scripture. Does that mean they mostly agree with what you believe? Or is it that they can write good books on the subject? Or is it that they believe differently than the F&W's? It all sounds like a good way to wind up in a state of confusion to me. Your citing the message to the churches in revelations is also interesting. To me those messages have nothing to do with the denominational churches we see so prevalent today. All seven churches received a message from one man, named John the apostle. They were all in fellowship with that one man, who said he was in fellowship with the Father and the Son. That doesn't sound like the denominational system in the world today. Can you imagine them all being in fellowship with and listening to one man? Yes most of those churches had some serious problems and some good marks. Some had left their first love for Christ. Many had compromised their love for Christ by being overly tolerant and remaining in fellowship with those who were no longer following the teachings of Jesus. There were those among them who were preaching false doctrines but they were not the apostles of Christ. There were those who had the false teachings of Niclolas, possibly one of the early deacons?, and others who listened to the false teachings of a false prophetess. They had serious problems because there were those among them who taught them to just mix with other unbelievers just like Baleem did in the Old Testament. To me most of these problems can be summarized as a teaching of tolerance, tolerance, tolerance. The problem is not tolerance as in long suffering and reaching out to others, the problem is tolerance in those things which God hates. If we listen long enough to those with false teachings, we will eventually begin to believe and practice the same. I believe that is why Jesus was so emphatic that we beware of the false prophets. It is wonderful that by his Spirit He helps us to understand who and where they can be found. And I am not just talking about preachers in non-Christian religions. I am talking about those who Jesus said would come to him and tell him of all the wonderful things they have done in His name... to which He will reply.. I never knew you. Del
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Post by harborlight on Jan 11, 2008 15:23:07 GMT -5
Del:"Your response to Alan is interesting. You seem to condemn some workers for excluding other "Christians" for various reasons and yet you state that you believe these truths have been proven true by the many Born again Christians that are living powerful lives for Christ of which are not a part of the f&w group.. Are you then excluding the vast majority of "Christians" who are not of the Born again Christians type? "
HL: The godly fruit that I have seen in other Christians who are not in fellowship with the f&w is evidence (proof)to me that God's saving Grace is working in lives of other Christians as well as those living for Christ who are among the f&w. No I am not meaning to exclude anyone. It is God's place to judge. He knows each person's heart.
Del:"Let's face it, of the billions or so who take the name of Christ, only a very small minority would even know what you are talking about when you say Born again Christians ."
HL: Del, how do you know this? Have you taken a survey of all the billions who take the name of Christ, or are you making assumptions? Worse yet, are you judging billions?
Del:"They have never been taught it nor have they experienced it. I grew up in a "major" Christian denomination, and the vast majority of Jesus basic teaching were foreign to me. "
How do you know this? Just because this was your experience in the church you grew up in, this doesn't give you the authority to speak for billions of people. Do you feel you have this authority?
Del:"I am thankful that I no longer have to rely on their profound interpretation of the scriptures."
HL: Who's interpretation do you rely on now?
Del: "I am certainly unsure how you decide what is a normal or majority Christian interpretation of scripture. Does that mean they mostly agree with what you believe? Or is it that they can write good books on the subject? Or is it that they believe differently than the F&W's? It all sounds like a good way to wind up in a state of confusion to me."
HL: No, the proof is in the fruit of individual people's life who testify of the saving work of the Holy Spirit that has transformed their lives.
Del:"Your citing the message to the churches in revelations is also interesting. To me those messages have nothing to do with the denominational churches we see so prevalent today. All seven churches received a message from one man, named John the apostle. They were all in fellowship with that one man, who said he was in fellowship with the Father and the Son. That doesn't sound like the denominational system in the world today. Can you imagine them all being in fellowship with and listening to one man?"
HL: I believe the reason there were only seven churches listed here is that at the time John received this revelation, either there were only seven Christian churches existing in the world at that time, or those were the only churches God chose to deliver this message to.
Del: "Yes most of those churches had some serious problems and some good marks. Some had left their first love for Christ. Many had compromised their love for Christ by being overly tolerant and remaining in fellowship with those who were no longer following the teachings of Jesus. There were those among them who were preaching false doctrines but they were not the apostles of Christ. There were those who had the false teachings of Niclolas, possibly one of the early deacons?, and others who listened to the false teachings of a false prophetess. They had serious problems because there were those among them who taught them to just mix with other unbelievers just like Baleem did in the Old Testament. To me most of these problems can be summarized as a teaching of tolerance, tolerance, tolerance. The problem is not tolerance as in long suffering and reaching out to others, the problem is tolerance in those things which God hates. If we listen long enough to those with false teachings, we will eventually begin to believe and practice the same. I believe that is why Jesus was so emphatic that we beware of the false prophets. It is wonderful that by his Spirit He helps us to understand who and where they can be found.
HL: Yes, and I believe that these are warnings that apply to all churches existing today, not just the f&w. I have heard many workers use this as to illustrate God's warnings to the f&w as well."
Del: "And I am not just talking about preachers in non-Christian religions. I am talking about those who Jesus said would come to him and tell him of all the wonderful things they have done in His name... to which He will reply.. I never knew you."
Del, do you believe that all other people who do not belong to the f&w fellowship do not know God, regardless if they are professing Christianity or not? And if so, how do you know?
Harborlight
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delh
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by delh on Jan 11, 2008 16:28:45 GMT -5
Del, do you believe that all other people who do not belong to the f&w fellowship do not know God, regardless if they are professing Christianity or not? And if so, how do you know?
That is not at all what I was saying. I was only wondering why you excluded those who were not born again Christians in your post. If you believe that the majority of "Christians" have a born again experience than that is your privilege to believe. I thought RC were the largest denomination and it has certainly been my experience that they don't fit into this mold. There are many other denominations that do not teach or have in their doctrine the concept of being born again. No I haven't studied them all and I really don't care to.
Del
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Post by guest on Jan 11, 2008 19:06:11 GMT -5
Following written in Jan. 1929 by Selm J. Larristaen She WAS an officer in the Salvation Army. ************************************************* Let me tell you how it happened, Then perhaps you'll understand Why today my life is different From the way which I had planned; And perhaps because I told you You will seek to learn someday And in seeking find as I did, Christ, the True and Living Way. I would call it chance that led me Where two men had pitched a tent, But I know it was God's leading, Now I know 'twas He who sent, Where I heard a simple Gospel, Something in it spoke to me, But my mind was filled with darkness So the Truth I could not see.
Sure, I know these preachers mean it, There's no doubt but they're sincere, But there's much about religion That they haven't very clear. Thus I pondered on their message, Calmed the storm within my breast, Journeyed back into the old way Where before I had found rest. But that rest for me is ended And I could not help but see Oh! so much unlike the Master In the way as taught to me. Oftentimes my mind would wander To those homeless strangers who Still in spite of this world's scorning Preached all they thought was true. But time dulled the edge of memory, And I made myself believe That the way I went led Heavenward, Thus the devil did deceive. But the faithful of God's servants Who did walk the lowly way, As I wandered on in darkness Did not cease for me to pray. So the Father in His mercy Opened up again the door, Sent again His servants to me, Let me hear the Truth once more; O'er my pathway, steeped in darkness 'Til a ray of Heaven's light And the things which had charmed me Lost for me their luster bright. "Can it be, O God" I pleaded, "That those men by Thee are led?" "Yes, remember that the Saviour Had not where to lay His head, And remember that His servants Always turned from their own way; Few there were that ever followed In that meek and lowly way. Never will I forget that evening When the Lord made plain to me, "Yes, this is the way I planned it When I lived and died for thee." And God's servants who in pattern Had declared this Gospel true Asked of me this simple question, "Now what are you going to do?" When I had to face the question, And I saw my heart that night Not as others might have judged it But revealed in God's true light, Saw how far I was from willing To yield all to His control, Saw how much I wanted my way, Saw the blackness of my soul. Oh! the same the vision brought me, I, who said I love the Lord, I was stopping now the question If I would obey His word. Then I heard His voice so sweetly, Gently saying, "Follow Me, Surely you can trust my leading, I have proved my love for thee." "And the fetters which now bind thee, I will break them one by one, Give thee freedom such as no one Can impart, but God's own Son." Slowly, fearfully I yielded, I could not His love deny, And in yielding proved for myself That the Lord could satisfy. Proved that He could fight the battles Which alone I could not face, Proved that He could walk beside me, Feed me on the living bread, Proved that all His servants taught me Truthfully of Him was said. That is why I surely thank Him That on earth there are a few Walking in the way of Jesus, Doing all He taught them to. Pouring out their lives in service, Willing to be used of God So that others might see in them Just the way the Master trod. Now I pray that through my weakness God's own strength may be known That through me the light of Jesus Unto others might be shown. High the calling, weak the vessel, But I yearn to do His will That my life now yielded to Him His own purpose may fulfill. S.J.L. Jan. 1929
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Post by nancye on Jan 11, 2008 22:54:59 GMT -5
What a good poem. In simplicity telling a great story.
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