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Post by nathanb on Dec 10, 2007 13:09:05 GMT -5
1) Kim asked: Delh: What dates does your Bible Harmony give for the 70 going out and coming back? And for the 12 going out and coming back?
~~~ Del wrote:
Kim, I don't have my bible in front of me, but I believe the dates given for the 12 being sent out is about 15 months before Jesus died on the cross. Much later in His ministry then I would have thought from where it appears in the gospels. It does not list a date or event for their coming back. I do not recall any event of the the 12 coming back. That is why I previously asked the question when did the mission end? In reality I picture Jesus not very far from them the whole time they were going out. I believe they still spent much time with Jesus during this time. As already mentioned Jesus time during this period was mostly around Galilee.
The date given for the 70 being sent out is about a year later or about 3 months before Jesus died. Jesus was mostly in the region just east of the Jordan and in Bethany, Jerico, Jerusalem, and some up into Ephraim and even the edge of Samaria. A rather small area about 20 miles on a side. Again there is no date given for when the 70 returned. We do know that Luke mentioned at one point they came to Jesus in the verses cited below rejoicing. I don't believe this means that the mission that they were sent on ended at this time. Like the 12 that were sent earlier I picture the 70 having lots of contacts with Jesus as they went forth with the gospel message. He did tell them he would follow and come where they had been.
17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
21In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
22All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
23And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
24For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
The date given for the exchange with the rich young ruler was sometime in the month just before Jesus died. That is where Peter said Lo we have left all and followed thee. Doesn't appear from this discourse that Peter or Jesus believed that what Jesus had asked him to do was over and ended.
Del
~~~ Nathan: Thanks, Del. My understanding Luke, one of Paul Co-workers wrote the Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts to show the Christians and others that Jesus' and apostles Itinerant ministry did NOT end at the Gospels but it had continued on around 68 A.D.
Through reading John the apostle I, II, III epistles and the book of revelation we know the Gospel work of Christ has continued on after the death of Paul and Peter around 69 A.D.
John the apostle was still alive and preaching around 95 A.D. when he wrote the book of Revelation.
According to the early church fathers' writings who were pupils, or followers of the apostles had recorded what they heard, learned and taught from John the apostles, Barnabas, and others...
It has been proven by the Catholic Church, Orthodox Church, and Vaudois apostles historian that the true and false gospel work of Christ have continue SIDE by SIDE through down the ages or in Every generation to our days...
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selah
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Post by selah on Dec 10, 2007 13:27:59 GMT -5
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Post by nancye on Dec 12, 2007 1:39:15 GMT -5
Ram, I thank you for your post... and the points you bring out about the 12/70 going out before Jesus. I have been puzzling about this, why was there always someone going before him. John the Baptist was sent before Jesus, the 12 and then the 70. We could even look at it as today Jesus sends others before him. We usually meet someone before Jesus comes, either one of God's children, or one of his ministers, then he comes to dwell when he is accepted. I have notice lately that even in the Spirit's dealings, God doesn't leave question marks. He sends confirmation of what he has told us. Either there is someone else who has had the same revelation or in doing whatever it is we are prompted to do, there is a blessing that follows. Has anyone else have any thoughts along these lines? Joe, Realizing this is a former and a bit out of sequence post, I really appreciate what you said as quoted above. I do believe The Lord does brings many things about through the aid of His Holy Spirit preparing the way, so to speak. Maybe His promptings aren't always heeded, and the work is thwarted. Maybe someone who would be asked (prompted by His Spirit) to do, or say a specific thing doesn't respond and the work doesn't go forward. Kind of a serious thought. Perhaps He chooses another to carry out His desire, but the timing would be different, etc. Of course the object of what the Lord was seeking to accomplish has to respond in concert (or not) as well..... As we look back we can see God's hand....... Sometimes the process taking years....... Sometimes not. Sometimes we see what could have been. Sometimes there's no knowledge of what was missed. When through the Spirit we see things come together, we are 'cheered and heartened' as hymn #173 says. I think too of what you expressed re: something occurring which confirms one's revelation, so to speak. A kind of witness. An experience of affirmation. Then we are satisfied. And in that sense we continue onward, encouraged, going from "faith to faith"....... n.
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Post by Kim on Dec 14, 2007 22:45:52 GMT -5
To Del: From the following 2 verses it would seem that it was after John the Baptist was beheaded, that the 12 disciples returned to Jesus:
Lu 9:10: “And the apostles when they were returned, told him all that they had done.”
Mark 6:30: “And the apostles gathered themselves together unto Jesus and told him all things both what they had done and what they had taught.”
Does your bible show what the date was when this occurred? Or give a date when John was beheaded?
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selah
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Post by selah on Dec 15, 2007 0:52:51 GMT -5
Jesus desire was that the Good News would be shared with the whole world. At the start there were just those few who understood the gospel message. It was imperative that Jesus' mission was priority number one. The quicker they were able to spread the word, the greater strength they would have in the community of believers. At the time of Pentecost 3,000 were added to their number in ONE DAY!! So, there were 3,000 more disciples to share the good news.
Did the mission of sharing the Gospel continue? Of course it did...and it still continues today. Did it continue in only that exact way without changing down through the generations? No, obviously not. There are many ways to share the Gospel today. God knows better than we do what is necessary for each time and culture.
In view of the time remaining before Jesus' return, the urgency to reach the whole world is even greater today, so we ought to make use of as many ways to share the Good News as possible.
The Good News is Jesus...He is the ONLY way....but there are many ways to tell people about Him; one of which is the f&w method. So, has the mission ended? No. Has that specific way of ministry ended? Not entirely, but since it was designed for a specific purpose in time, wisdom would say we should ask our Lord how He would like us to redeem the time NOW...how would He have us share the Gospel today?
We often say He was right there with them then...but have we forgotten He's right here IN us now. He is still actively teaching, leading and guiding. He must wonder why we often want to confine Him to something He said and did in the 1st Century. He's ALIVE today. Are we listening?
Blessings, Linda
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Post by Chris on Dec 15, 2007 5:40:00 GMT -5
Linda, your post reminded me of a portion from "The Gate Seldom Found":
"I'm convinced the mission of the itinerant preachers is mainly to extend the gospel to communities beyond the reach of saints in a home church - just like the New Testament."
and..
"Once a church is established, any saints worth their salt will be eager to take over the responsibility of pointing others to Christ".
It's important to keep in mind that the work is God's - man could hardly take the credit for 3,000 people coming into fellowship in one day!
That doesn't mean cruising through life and ignoring the needs around us. If he moves us to share the good news with others and we don't "launch out into the deep" and do that, will we not be ashamed before him at his coming? Will we not be like the man who wrapped his talent in a napkin and buried it?
When Jesus said to his disciples "Open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest" (John 4:35) they were in the land of the Samaritans who the Jews had no dealings with.
There's really no lack of oppotunity with more than 6.7 billion out there who have likely never heard of our liitle fellowship group.
In the NT church I don't see two mutually exclusive job descriptions - there were various giftings which empowered the believers to serve one another in love and reach out to a needy world. I like this scripture that exhorts to " prepare God's people for works of service".
Eph 4:11-13 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
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selah
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Post by selah on Dec 15, 2007 10:45:14 GMT -5
Amen....whether it's one person or many, over a period of one day or a hundred years....it's ALWAYS God's work...impossible for man to regenerate people in the Spirit. I'm sure when you note the 6.7 billion who haven't heard of "our little fellowship group," you're likely more concerned that they haven't heard about Jesus and/or His saving power. There were divisions based on perception, even though they shared a common goal. Paul tried to discourage this, but when we consider that people see things differently, it stands to reason there will be divisions. Of course we will one day unite as ONE. The beginnings of denominationalism were right there in Corinth. 1 Corinthians 1:10-15 Because people have different perceptions, it would be impossible to avoid differences, but Paul tried to explain..we follow Christ, not people. Today, there are many different groups that sprouted from the perceptions of their founders, but the truth is still the same...Jesus Christ is the ONLY way, amen? SOME f&w are following William Irvine's perception of what it means to follow Christ. He believed it meant to maintain a specific method of ministry/worship etc. Is that what it really means to follow Christ though? This particular concept can be found in other churches too, where SOME even exchange their relationship with Christ for a relationship with church policy, procedure and ministry or even with their own sense of righteousness. I'm not at all convinced that Jesus intent was that we should follow a specific method of ministry/worship etc. That would be Irvine's perception though. I believe Jesus intended for us to follow Him in relationship with His Father, and He is the ONLY way to make that possible. THAT perception, I believe I learned from Jesus, because His Father is the founder of it. I don't think any man in history ever came up with an idea like that one! At least that's my perception. I like that passage too Chris. Also 1 Corinthians 12:4-6...and the whole chapter: 4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. (emphasis mine) Blessings, Linda
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Post by harborlight on Jan 2, 2008 11:04:47 GMT -5
Hi all,
I have really enjoyed this thread, and have learned a lot! Thank you all for your wisdom.
These verses came to mind while reading your comments:
Luke 22 35And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
I believe this is where Jesus ended the missions of the apostles prior to his going to the cross. I used to think "scrip" was a written text, but it is actually a "purse". These verses indicate that Jesus gave them permission to go back to their homes, families, and jobs because his mission with them was accomplished. He said "all things concerning me have an end" If all things concerning him "have an end" how does the teaching that all ministers must be 2x2, unmarried, homeless, preach free of charge, etc; not have an end as well? How does this support the f&w belief that Jesus (his ministry) is the "same yesterday, today, and forever?"
I'm interested in your thoughts on this....
Your sister in Christ,
Harborlight
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delh
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Posts: 56
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Post by delh on Jan 2, 2008 13:09:39 GMT -5
Hi all, I have really enjoyed this thread, and have learned a lot! Thank you all for your wisdom. These verses came to mind while reading your comments: Luke 22 35And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. I believe this is where Jesus ended the missions of the apostles prior to his going to the cross. I used to think "scrip" was a written text, but it is actually a "purse". These verses indicate that Jesus gave them permission to go back to their homes, families, and jobs because his mission with them was accomplished. He said "all things concerning me have an end" If all things concerning him "have an end" how does the teaching that all ministers must be 2x2, unmarried, homeless, preach free of charge, etc; not have an end as well? How does this support the f&w belief that Jesus (his ministry) is the "same yesterday, today, and forever?" I'm interested in your thoughts on this.... Your sister in Christ, Harborlight I could easily follow your line of reasoning if I really believed that in addition to ending his original instructions to the apostles that He was actually now instructing them and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. . This is so contrary to the Christ that I have come to know and love that I personally would have to question if there is not a very different message that he was trying to get across to the disciples here. I have no question that He already painfully knew that Peter had a sword and that he would shortly be using it to defend Jesus in the wrong way by cutting the servant of the high priests ear off. I believe there was a strong message to them. When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. There never will be a lack when we do and teach what Jesus taught. Luke 22:38And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.When Jesus said here it is enough, was he saying that the rest didn't need to sell their garments and buy a sword, or was it an expression of disgust for what He already knew they had that would be used contrary to every teaching He had tried to impart unto them?? I am not sure I follow your reasoning on all things with Jesus having an end. Certainly He came with the express purpose that the end would be giving his life on the cross for us all. I don't believe it means that all things that he lived and taught were destined to have an end. You certainly would not apply that reasoning to what He taught in Mathew 5,6 and 7 would you? Just the way I see it on this side of the harbor.
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Post by harborlight on Jan 2, 2008 23:27:35 GMT -5
del,
Thanks for your response. Sorry I misquoted Jesus by saying "all" things concerning him have an end... I believe he is still reigning today!I like how the NIV puts clarity to this passage, it seems that Jesus is instructing them all to take back their possessions, and all get swords.
Luke 22
35Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered.
36He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."
Also this scripture in has puzzled me. Jesus said this to his disciples, of whom Phillip and Thomas were named; He indicates the apostles kept homes:
John 16
31"You believe at last!" Jesus answered. 32"But a time is coming, and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.
Do the workers still think that the apostles didn't have homes to go back to when they finished their mission with Jesus? I went to meeting nearly all my life, and I wonder why I have never heard any of these verses spoken about.
Interested in more imput...
Harborlight
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delh
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Post by delh on Jan 3, 2008 12:43:01 GMT -5
del, Thanks for your response. Sorry I misquoted Jesus by saying "all" things concerning him have an end... I believe he is still reigning today!I like how the NIV puts clarity to this passage, it seems that Jesus is instructing them all to take back their possessions, and all get swords. Luke 22 35Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered.
36He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment." Also this scripture in has puzzled me. Jesus said this to his disciples, of whom Phillip and Thomas were named; He indicates the apostles kept homes: John 16 31"You believe at last!" Jesus answered. 32"But a time is coming, and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me. Do the workers still think that the apostles didn't have homes to go back to when they finished their mission with Jesus? I went to meeting nearly all my life, and I wonder why I have never heard any of these verses spoken about. Interested in more imput... Harborlight There are two intertwined issues that you are raising. First is the intent of Jesus message in Luke 22. You mentioned that " it seems that Jesus is instructing them all to take back their possessions, and all get swords." Isn't it a little far fetched to believe that the Prince of Peace would desire that his disciples go out in the world with the message of peace with a sword strapped to their side? They were to be followers of Jesus. Can you picture Jesus going forth to draw others to himself with a sword strapped to his side? The one who died for you and me who would not even open his mouth to defend himself. The one who instructed his disciples to not even think ahead of how to answer their enemies. The one who told them to turn the other cheek. I certainly don't read in those verses you have quoted that they were instructed to take back their possessions. How do you do that after you have left them? Say to the person you gave them to, sorry I made a mistake and want it all back? You also bring up the issue of some of the disciples having homes. I believe that we need to be very careful how we interpret the way in which the word homes is mentioned in these scriptures. When I was a child I had a home. Legally, of course my Mother and Father OWNED the home and I lived there. But you could not have convinced me that I didn't have a home. When I left school I went HOME. When I left any activity I went HOME. When I married, I left that home and rented an apartment. That became my temporary home, month to month. But when I visited my parents, I went HOME. My son has been in the work many years, but every few years he comes HOME. Is it his home still? I hope he feels that it is. Would the legal authorities say it is his home. No. We have an interesting saying in the USA that we say to many quests, "make yourself at home", and "my home is your home". Of course since my son is doing what Peter said to Jesus " Lord we have left all".... He has Jesus promise that he will have 100 homes... Only those willing to leave all will ever know the reality of this promise. In many countries children still remain in the same home they grew up in, their parents home, years into adult hood. I suspect that was even truer in the days of the New Testament. In some areas the whole extended family occupies one home. We ofter use the term our home to simply designate that is the place where we live. This brings to mind an funny story. One of our friends took a teaching job in North Vietnam. A homeless young man professed and it worked out for him to live with out friend in his home. As time passed he noticed that some of his clothes and even his underwear were being worn by the young man. When he found out his toothbrush was also being used by the young man he knew he had to have a talk with him. It turned out that the custom under which the young man grew up was that EVERYTHING in the home was common property. We all have many different understandings about such a simple topic as what is a home, don't we? Perhaps when we talk about the ministry Jesus sent out we shouldn't be talking about a homeless ministry, but a ministry with a hundred fold homes, sisters, brothers............ Del
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Post by George on Jan 3, 2008 16:28:14 GMT -5
Another thought about ''homes'' , and the instruction and Peter saying he ''left all''.
I do believe that Peters wife, was cared for by the Lord, just as Peter himself was, yet, it is quite possible that the early apostles did leave their home/house along when they left their wives to preach the gospel story, as Jesus said that those that needed to leave their wives, would be cared for in truth. just as it was for Paul, to say it would be better to remain unmarried, thus that seems to be the most prefered status for the ministry, even today.
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Post by harborlight on Jan 4, 2008 1:30:07 GMT -5
del, Thanks for your response. Sorry I misquoted Jesus by saying "all" things concerning him have an end... I believe he is still reigning today!I like how the NIV puts clarity to this passage, it seems that Jesus is instructing them all to take back their possessions, and all get swords. Luke 22 35Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered.
36He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment." Also this scripture in has puzzled me. Jesus said this to his disciples, of whom Phillip and Thomas were named; He indicates the apostles kept homes: John 16 31"You believe at last!" Jesus answered. 32"But a time is coming, and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me. Do the workers still think that the apostles didn't have homes to go back to when they finished their mission with Jesus? I went to meeting nearly all my life, and I wonder why I have never heard any of these verses spoken about. Interested in more imput... Harborlight There are two intertwined issues that you are raising. First is the intent of Jesus message in Luke 22. You mentioned that " it seems that Jesus is instructing them all to take back their possessions, and all get swords." Isn't it a little far fetched to believe that the Prince of Peace would desire that his disciples go out in the world with the message of peace with a sword strapped to their side? They were to be followers of Jesus. Can you picture Jesus going forth to draw others to himself with a sword strapped to his side? The one who died for you and me who would not even open his mouth to defend himself. The one who instructed his disciples to not even think ahead of how to answer their enemies. The one who told them to turn the other cheek. Del, I actually don't think it is far fetched, since Jesus himself said it. I certainly don't read in those verses you have quoted that they were instructed to take back their possessions. How do you do that after you have left them? Say to the person you gave them to, sorry I made a mistake and want it all back? What I meant was, that he gave instruction to now carry a sword to defend themselves, a purse to provide for their own financial needs, and a bag with their own possessions. These are different instructions then he gave them in Matt 10. Why do you think he changed his mind? I think it is because his mission with these men was over.You also bring up the issue of some of the disciples having homes. I believe that we need to be very careful how we interpret the way in which the word homes is mentioned in these scriptures. Mathew 8:
14When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever. 15He touched her hand and the fever left her, and she got up and began to wait on him.
Del, do you think Peter left his wife at home permanently? I believe he did for a temporary period of time, for a temporary mission."When I was a child I had a home. Legally, of course my Mother and Father OWNED the home and I lived there. But you could not have convinced me that I didn't have a home. When I left school I went HOME. When I left any activity I went HOME. When I married, I left that home and rented an apartment. That became my temporary home, month to month. But when I visited my parents, I went HOME. " Del, By your assumption, it appears that you believe that Peter and his wife must have lived with his inlaw's then, and Matthew must have lied when he said Jesus entered "Peter's house"
Matt 8:14When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever. 15He touched her hand and the fever left her, and she got up and began to wait on him. Phillip, too must have had a wife and family, because it says his daughters prophysied.Acts 21
8And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
9And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy. "My son has been in the work many years, but every few years he comes HOME. Is it his home still? I hope he feels that it is. Would the legal authorities say it is his home. No. We have an interesting saying in the USA that we say to many quests, "make yourself at home", and "my home is your home". Of course since my son is doing what Peter said to Jesus " Lord we have left all".... He has Jesus promise that he will have 100 homes... Only those willing to leave all will ever know the reality of this promise." Del, I have no doubt that God will reward your son's sacrifice! I believe God rewards us richly. However, iI believe the apostleship as the F&W claim it to be, it is not the only way God chose to spread the gospel.
Eph 4 11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: "In many countries children still remain in the same home they grew up in, their parents home, years into adult hood. I suspect that was even truer in the days of the New Testament. In some areas the whole extended family occupies one home. We ofter use the term our home to simply designate that is the place where we live. This brings to mind an funny story. One of our friends took a teaching job in North Vietnam. A homeless young man professed and it worked out for him to live with out friend in his home. As time passed he noticed that some of his clothes and even his underwear were being worn by the young man. When he found out his toothbrush was also being used by the young man he knew he had to have a talk with him. It turned out that the custom under which the young man grew up was that EVERYTHING in the home was common property. We all have many different understandings about such a simple topic as what is a home, don't we? "Perhaps when we talk about the ministry Jesus sent out we shouldn't be talking about a homeless ministry, but a ministry with a hundred fold homes, sisters, brothers............" It is a wonderful thing, that when we become part of God's family, that we are all blessed with many brothers and sisters, and have fellowship in each others homes as well. This is truly a gift of hospitality God has promised his childrenI appreciate the time you took to help me understand your point of view! This is just how things look from my side of the harbor. [/color] Harborlight
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delh
Junior Member
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Post by delh on Jan 4, 2008 13:17:10 GMT -5
Dear Harborlights,
This has been an interesting discussion, even though we obviously see things very differently. I would only like to make a few things very clear in light of your last post.
Del, I actually don't think it is far fetched, since Jesus himself said it.
The fact that Jesus said it does not necessarily mean we understand the intent with which he said it. We are all aware of instances where we heard someone say something only to discover later that we really didn't understand what we thought we heard.
What I meant was, that he gave instruction to now carry a sword to defend themselves, a purse to provide for their own financial needs, and a bag with their own possessions. These are different instructions then he gave them in Matt 10. Why do you think he changed his mind? I think it is because his mission with these men was over.
Well actually I don't believe he changed his mind. I have tried to state in as delicate a way as I can that there is a very different way to look at these verses. You apparently feel that there is no alternate to the way you are interpreting them, so you have to conclude that Jesus changed his mind. That is not my position but yours. If you truly believe that Jesus changed his mind from blessing the meek and those who turn the other cheek to now blessing those who take up a sword and defend themselves and do harm to others then I would have to conclude that we have come to believe in someone called Jesus that is very different indeed.
Del, By your assumption, it appears that you believe that Peter and his wife must have lived with his inlaw's then, and Matthew must have lied when he said Jesus entered "Peter's house"
I am glad you said it APPEARS that you believe that Mathew must have lied, because I certainly didn't say that, nor did I imply it. I was simply pointing out that the word's "Peter's house" does not prove who owned the house and since this event occurred BEFORE Peter left all and was sent forth to preach by Jesus it really has nothing to do with the issue of whether he still had a home that he owned after he went out to preach. I take Peter at his word ... Lord we have left all... which were spoken shortly before Jesus death to mean that he no longer considered the home to be his.
Phillip, too must have had a wife and family, because it says his daughters prophysied.
Acts 21
8And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
9And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
I am not sure why you are bringing this up, since Phillip was a deacon not an apostle, and one of the marks of a deacon was that he be faithful to one wife.
I agree that the gospel goes forth from faith to faith, and every child of God has their part in living and telling the gospel story. The bible is full of stories of those who helped to spread the gospel whether they be saint or servant. But to deny that Jesus is still sending laborers into the harvest field to sow the precious seed is to me a dangerous position. There seems to be almost an animosity by some for the fact that workers go forth today much like Jesus sent His servants forth in his day. It is almost like people think the way in which the workers choose to go forth to preach the gospel is something of their own invention and not in obedience to Jesus. Paul stated that we receive grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith. We might ask ourselves to what are we being obedient... Jesus or our own way of thinking of how the servant is sent forth?
Del
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Post by bluejay on Jan 5, 2008 22:42:44 GMT -5
Del - in your post above you said:
How do we discern Jesus's intent? Also, in the instance of differing opinions, how do we know who's correct?
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