|
Post by Alan C on Dec 2, 2007 2:02:51 GMT -5
God doesn't send out workers, i.e. a select group of preachers to do the work. All followers are disciples and have the responsiblities of spreading the good news of salvation. This was one of the biggest revelations to me when I finally got things straight and learned more about the Bible, the cultures of the time and what a personal relationship with the Lord means instead of just following along in "the way" and being stale and starving. This verse says otherwise, and if we wish to go further, we can look at how Paul said that he was sent and that he was a worker. Romans 10:15 - And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
|
|
ram
New Member
Posts: 22
|
Post by ram on Dec 2, 2007 4:37:17 GMT -5
Hi Alan,
My understanding of Romans 10:15 and accompanying passages is a contextual one. Paul was writing about people who had not heard the "good news" being preached to them.
At that time transportation was by mule or on foot. The former was quite expensive.
Now looking at matters "contextually," how could the people at that time learn about Jesus ? No books, no radio or TV, mobile phones etc. They were very much dependent upon their equivelent of the Town Cryer. The only way they could learn of the good news was through having it preached to them. There were no preachers in their midst at that time, so preachers would have to be sent. Most travelling was done on foot.
Therefore, "how shall they preach, except they be sent and how beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things " makes absolute common sense when seen in this context.
There was no other way at that time that the gospel could be delivered or pioneered.
Once a people had heard the gospel and had received the indwelling Christ, the prophesy of Joel kicks in, i.e. Your fathers and mothers shall dream dreams and your sons and daughters shall prophesy (speak the word of the Lord), or words to that effect.
|
|
geoff
New Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by geoff on Dec 2, 2007 13:19:36 GMT -5
Hi Geoff, I'm sorry I misquoted you, and yes, there is a difference between believing something and claiming something. I just find it odd that someone would claim something if he didn't believe it. Why would he do that? I'm likely just misunderstanding something here...sorry Geoff. Blessings, Linda Its my opinion that many who beleive this do not claim it - that it is they keep it to themselves and don't speak about it, much less go about proclaiming it. Those that "claim" it (that is, make an issue of it either verbally or orally) are a minority.
|
|
geoff
New Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by geoff on Dec 2, 2007 13:21:05 GMT -5
"Now looking at matters "contextually," how could the people at that time learn about Jesus ? No books, no radio or TV, mobile phones etc. They were very much dependent upon their equivelent of the Town Cryer. The only way they could learn of the good news was through having it preached to them. There were no preachers in their midst at that time, so preachers would have to be sent. Most travelling was done on foot."
This raises an interesting point, but a deviation from this thread, so I'll start another.
|
|
|
Post by nathanb on Dec 2, 2007 18:38:16 GMT -5
1) Eagle wrote: God doesn't send out workers, i.e. a select group of preachers to do the work.
~~~ Hi, Eagle... Welcome to ST message board. I hope you don't mind for us to jump in and sharing our thoughts, ideas, understanding and perphaps we can learn different things from one another.
Well, God the Father and Jesus did sent means Apostle out the 12 and 70 workers or laborers into Theirs harvest field in Matthew 10 and Luke 10 as preachers to proclaim the goodnews to the Jews (Judah and Benjamin tribes) and Lost sheep House of Israel (10 lost tribes)....
And the apostles or God's workers/laborers continue their Gospel work which Jesus has commanded them to fulfill until He comes again.... Jesus said, " And this Gospel of Kingdom shall be Preached in ALL the world for a witness to ALL nations; and then shall the end comes." (Matthew 24:14).
2) Eagle wrote: All followers are disciples and have the responsiblities of spreading the good news of salvation. This was one of the biggest revelations to me when I finally got things straight and learned more about the Bible, the cultures of the time and what a personal relationship with the Lord means instead of just following along in "the way" and being stale and starving.
~~~ Nathan: Yes, I agree with you that sharing the goodnews of Salvation through beliving in Jesus are the responsibilities of the apostles/workers/preachers and his followers/disciples and NOT just for the apostles/workers ONLY.
However, God has set some in the church first! apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, pastors, sheperds, evangelists.... (I Cor. 12:28)
(Eph. 4:8-14) Before Jesus ascended up on high he gave some apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors, some teachers for the perfecting for the saints for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.... Till all come in the UNITY! of the faith... that we henceforth be no more children toss to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.
God has given us apostles, teachers, evangelists, preachers, pastors, shepherds to guide, help, solve problems which do happen among the brethren as we read different letters in the New Testament that Paul and others addressed for all of those who were involved to read.
I agree 100% that the responsibilites of the Workers and the disciples of Jesus are to share or preach the Goodnews of Salvation through Christ as the Truth and the Way to God. We read the book of Acts that the disciples of Jesus Stephen, Philip, Aquilla and Prisilla, etc.. preach the word of God and they convinced others through the help of the Spirit to follow Christ.
|
|
|
Post by Alan C on Dec 3, 2007 0:28:54 GMT -5
Hi Alan, My understanding of Romans 10:15 and accompanying passages is a contextual one. Paul was writing about people who had not heard the "good news" being preached to them. At that time transportation was by mule or on foot. The former was quite expensive. Now looking at matters "contextually," how could the people at that time learn about Jesus ? No books, no radio or TV, mobile phones etc. They were very much dependent upon their equivelent of the Town Cryer. The only way they could learn of the good news was through having it preached to them. There were no preachers in their midst at that time, so preachers would have to be sent. Most travelling was done on foot. Therefore, "how shall they preach, except they be sent and how beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things " makes absolute common sense when seen in this context. There was no other way at that time that the gospel could be delivered or pioneered. Once a people had heard the gospel and had received the indwelling Christ, the prophesy of Joel kicks in, i.e. Your fathers and mothers shall dream dreams and your sons and daughters shall prophesy (speak the word of the Lord), or words to that effect. So you are accentually saying that there is no need for sent one's today? as there are books, radios, tv's or phones. I wonder how those man made tools can convey the Holy Spirit? If God had wanted there to be another way at that time to convey the Gospel there would have been nothing to stop Him. He does not need anything of man to help Him. I don't why man gets the funny idea that he has to help God. Learning about Jesus is not only about reading the Bible or having someone else tell someone, the full understanding is given by God. That is why the Bible is a closed book to many. It is so plain to me that that is the way that He planned from the beginning until the coming again of The Son. I prophesy every time I speak in the meeting but I ain't no preacher.
|
|
selah
Junior Member
Currently Reading 1 Samuel
Posts: 77
|
Post by selah on Dec 3, 2007 0:47:09 GMT -5
It's true...God does not need anything of man to help him, but He does use these things sometimes. He's God, so He can do whatever He wants to do, right? Why do we want to restrict how/what He can or wants to do?
Acts 19:11God did extraordinary miracles through Paul, 12so that even handkerchiefs and aprons that had touched him were taken to the sick, and their illnesses were cured and the evil spirits left them.
Remember too, that behind the books, radios, tvs and phones are men and women who are filled with the Holy Spirit. It's not that likely that God would just spread the gospel through an inanimate object, but it would not be impossible for Him to do if He wanted to. He did heal the sick even through Paul's touch on a handkerchief.
Blessings, Linda
|
|
ram
New Member
Posts: 22
|
Post by ram on Dec 3, 2007 4:50:01 GMT -5
Hi Alan, My understanding of Romans 10:15 and accompanying passages is a contextual one. Paul was writing about people who had not heard the "good news" being preached to them. At that time transportation was by mule or on foot. The former was quite expensive. Now looking at matters "contextually," how could the people at that time learn about Jesus ? No books, no radio or TV, mobile phones etc. They were very much dependent upon their equivelent of the Town Cryer. The only way they could learn of the good news was through having it preached to them. There were no preachers in their midst at that time, so preachers would have to be sent. Most travelling was done on foot. Therefore, "how shall they preach, except they be sent and how beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things " makes absolute common sense when seen in this context. There was no other way at that time that the gospel could be delivered or pioneered. Once a people had heard the gospel and had received the indwelling Christ, the prophesy of Joel kicks in, i.e. Your fathers and mothers shall dream dreams and your sons and daughters shall prophesy (speak the word of the Lord), or words to that effect. So you are accentually saying that there is no need for sent one's today? as there are books, radios, tv's or phones. I wonder how those man made tools can convey the Holy Spirit? If God had wanted there to be another way at that time to convey the Gospel there would have been nothing to stop Him. He does not need anything of man to help Him. I don't why man gets the funny idea that he has to help God. Learning about Jesus is not only about reading the Bible or having someone else tell someone, the full understanding is given by God. That is why the Bible is a closed book to many. It is so plain to me that that is the way that He planned from the beginning until the coming again of The Son. I prophesy every time I speak in the meeting but I ain't no preacher. Alan, Jesus' final command to his church was for them to go out into the world to preach, teach and baptize in his name. He "intended" his word would primarily be spread through the human agency of his church. The Epistles are a good example of spreading the word via the pen. So too is the book of Revelations which John was instructed to write and those who read it would be blessed. God uses all out senses to receive his word. The other means by which the word can be conveyed nowadays, accompany or are complimentary to human agency. Jesus said he would be with his church until the end of the world when he commanded them to preach and teach. Thus, modern appliances like computers, radio, phones, TV etc can all be useful tools in spreading the word, but the preacher and teacher are still the craftsmen/women. One bonus you can get with "direct" preaching is that with some preachers you can ask questions for clarification, or seek to take things further. Preachers and teachers are just as important today, in the various offices they hold. Paul in writing to the Ephesians (ch.4) vs 1 beseeched those people to "walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called." vs. 11 " And he gave some, apostles; and some , prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; vs 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ." These different offices were needed not just so much for preaching and teaching the word, BUT for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry and for the edifying of the body of Christ. Now, no matter how hard an itinerant ministry tries, considering it is generally absent from any particular area most of the time, it alone cannot perfect the saints and fully edify the body of Christ. This is clearly proven in Acts when the itinerant ministry could not attend to the needs of the widows and orphans. The itinerants instructed the church to appoint the first church committee of seven (local) men filled with the Holy Spirit to look into these matters. Some of these seven were evangelists and pastors etc. Such actions by these men, James later enshrined in his description of "pure religion." Yet, this is something that the itinerant ministry is incapable of addressing by itself. Their chief purpose is to "pioneer" the gospel. That is why these matters have to be addressed by locally appointed people such as those above. Itinerant ministry is very important for "pioneering" the gospel in new areas and setting up churches, etc, as well as having a refreshing effect when re-visiting areas. However, by its very peripatetic nature it cannot of itself address the full needs of the church, especially where the church may be large in numbers. Thanks Linda. I agree with you.
|
|
delh
Junior Member
Posts: 56
|
Post by delh on Dec 3, 2007 13:53:35 GMT -5
Hi Linda
Linda's Quote: There were specific and time-related reasons for the way He initiated those first followers into ministry. For example, I would not consider "Sending them out in twos" as one of God's truths. I would see that as a relevent instruction for their circumstance at the time. God always has perfect timing, and perfect planning for every situation. I see no evidence for that instruction being categorized as one of God's truths, while at the same time, I see it as one of many varieties of taking His truth to the world.
Linda you may not feel that Jesus "Sending them out in twos" is one of God's truths, but you cannot deny that it is true that He did in fact send them out in twos. If we take every action of Jesus and reason it out to be something that only applies to a particular circumstance at that particular time and place we will have successfully changed the entire bible from the living word into a nice history book.
Del's Quote: There was no ambiguity when he said Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests but I the Son of man have not where to lay my head.
Linda's quote: Jesus did have a home, and so did the disciples. They left their homes for a specific mission. Jesus' time was short, and there was an urgent need to establish a following before his physical presence left the earth. That's why there was a need to drop everything at the time.
Linda when did Jesus have a home? When He was a child, when He was a carpenter? Do you actually believe that He still had a home when he uttered the words I quoted above after He went forth to preach the gospel? The apostles left their homes, or Peter was lying when he said Lo we have left all and followed thee. You claim that they left their homes for specific missions. Can you tell me in the scriptures where and when those short missions ended? Peter uttered those words about a month before Jesus died and a little over a year after he was first sent forth to preach the gospel. Jesus spoke to the 11 disciples in Math 28 to take the gospel to all of the world. When did this short mission end??
Del's Quote: There was no ambiguity when he told the rich young ruler -- sell all that you have and come follow me.
Linda's quote: The rich young ruler was asked to sell all, because Jesus knew there was resistance in his heart. It was said so the young man would examine himself more deeply. The young man's question was not "What must I do to enter the ministry?" but "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" Does this mean we all must sell everything to have eternal life? No. Jesus specifically said to sell all to that individual, because he saw the lack in him. When read in context, it doesn't seem as though it was given as an instruction for entering the ministry.
Linda that is an interesting interpretation of why Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell all, take up his cross and follow Jesus. I don't believe that Jesus plays games with peoples lives. Yes the young man asked what he needed to do for eternal life. And when Jesus gave him the answer he went a way sorrowing. But in all three gospels that this event is recorded it immediately follows that Peter got the point that Jesus was bringing out, and he said lo we have left all, and followed thee. Mark 10 28Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.
29And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's,
30But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come ETERNAL LIFE.
The young man would have heard the answer to his question about eternal life if he actually stayed long enough to hear Jesus answer to Peter.
Notice also that Jesus said "There is no man that hath left house ---"
Doesn't look like those words are restricted to any specific circumstance or time does it??
Just the way it appeals to me. Del
|
|
ram
New Member
Posts: 22
|
Post by ram on Dec 3, 2007 15:42:58 GMT -5
Del, in my opinion a study of Luke 14 clarifies the dealings Jesus had with that rich young man in Matt. 19.
There is no rich young man in this chapter to confuse the issue. Jesus is talking to Pharisees and the multitude who followed him. It seems clear to me that ALL followers of Jesus must forsake all to be his disciple. This is a real eye-opener.
After Jesus gives the parable of the marriage feast and those bidden to attend from the highways and byways he says:
vs 26. "If any man come to me and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
27. And whosoever doth not bear his cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple.
vs. 33 "So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."
For me there is no ambiguity here. Jesus is talking about "all" believers or followers. He is not talking about itinerant preachers. He is talking to potential believers about being ordinary Christians.
This same message is contained within Matt. 19. but includes the rich young man. He came to Jesus asking about "salvation," not a position in the ministry. After that rich young man went away sorrowful, Jesus turned to his disciples and said, "Verily I say unto you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of God." Kingdom of God is "salvation." Jesus did not say "a rich man shall hardly enter the Work/Ministry." The whole matter was about salvation.
Yes the disciples said we have forsaken all and followed thee, but this was not "we have sold all." True, they had left all behind, but after Jesus was taken to the cross the disciples returned to their own homes (plural in NIV/ singular in KJV). At the cross Jesus handed over the responsibility of his mother, Mary, to John, who took her into "his own home." Presumably this was a commitment that John had for the life of Mary ?
At least some of the disciples returned to their jobs for a while, i.e. fishing. They had clearly not disposed of their equipment at that time, despite being told they would be made fishers of men !
When Jesus was out on the road, he clearly had no set place to lay his head. His mission took him well away from his home (where Mary was).
|
|
|
Post by Alan C on Dec 4, 2007 1:23:42 GMT -5
I have to wonder about this verse which shows He doesn't change, and to my way of thinking that would mean any thing He said or did would remain the same forever aswell or until He changed it.
[Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.]
|
|
fire
New Member
Posts: 18
|
Post by fire on Dec 4, 2007 5:47:25 GMT -5
Hi Linda Linda's Quote: There were specific and time-related reasons for the way He initiated those first followers into ministry. For example, I would not consider "Sending them out in twos" as one of God's truths. I would see that as a relevent instruction for their circumstance at the time. God always has perfect timing, and perfect planning for every situation. I see no evidence for that instruction being categorized as one of God's truths, while at the same time, I see it as one of many varieties of taking His truth to the world. Linda you may not feel that Jesus "Sending them out in twos" is one of God's truths, but you cannot deny that it is true that He did in fact send them out in twos. If we take every action of Jesus and reason it out to be something that only applies to a particular circumstance at that particular time and place we will have successfully changed the entire bible from the living word into a nice history book. Del's Quote: There was no ambiguity when he said Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests but I the Son of man have not where to lay my head. Linda's quote: Jesus did have a home, and so did the disciples. They left their homes for a specific mission. Jesus' time was short, and there was an urgent need to establish a following before his physical presence left the earth. That's why there was a need to drop everything at the time. Linda when did Jesus have a home? When He was a child, when He was a carpenter? Do you actually believe that He still had a home when he uttered the words I quoted above after He went forth to preach the gospel? The apostles left their homes, or Peter was lying when he said Lo we have left all and followed thee. You claim that they left their homes for specific missions. Can you tell me in the scriptures where and when those short missions ended? Peter uttered those words about a month before Jesus died and a little over a year after he was first sent forth to preach the gospel. Jesus spoke to the 11 disciples in Math 28 to take the gospel to all of the world. When did this short mission end?? Del's Quote: There was no ambiguity when he told the rich young ruler -- sell all that you have and come follow me. Linda's quote: The rich young ruler was asked to sell all, because Jesus knew there was resistance in his heart. It was said so the young man would examine himself more deeply. The young man's question was not "What must I do to enter the ministry?" but "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" Does this mean we all must sell everything to have eternal life? No. Jesus specifically said to sell all to that individual, because he saw the lack in him. When read in context, it doesn't seem as though it was given as an instruction for entering the ministry. Linda that is an interesting interpretation of why Jesus told the rich young ruler to sell all, take up his cross and follow Jesus. I don't believe that Jesus plays games with peoples lives. Yes the young man asked what he needed to do for eternal life. And when Jesus gave him the answer he went a way sorrowing. But in all three gospels that this event is recorded it immediately follows that Peter got the point that Jesus was bringing out, and he said lo we have left all, and followed thee. Mark 10 28Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. 29And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come ETERNAL LIFE. The young man would have heard the answer to his question about eternal life if he actually stayed long enough to hear Jesus answer to Peter. Notice also that Jesus said "There is no man that hath left house ---" Doesn't look like those words are restricted to any specific circumstance or time does it?? Just the way it appeals to me. Del del, When reading the passages wherein Jesus send them forth two and two, do you also read of additional instructions given by Jesus to the 12 and 70? I wonder why one instruction is cherry picked out of a list of instructions and deemed more worthy or more applicable to the Gospel call in the here and now. Do you have any idea why the one command should carry more weight then the others given by Jesus in the same passages? Also, if the one command should be given more weight and does hold significant importance of how true preachers are to be sent out, then why in the book of Acts does the practice of going out in pairs only happen 8 out of 29 times Paul, Barnabas, and others were sent out? looking forward to your response.
|
|
ram
New Member
Posts: 22
|
Post by ram on Dec 4, 2007 6:16:05 GMT -5
Another thing worth considering is that "Acts of the Apostles" is largely about that, i.e. the acts of the Apostles and even more specifically, Paul. It is not "Acts of the Church," although there is some coverage contained in the book. The church was still in its foundation phase.
Regarding Jesus being the same, Yesterday, today and forever, this surely refers to his spirit which is the same, yesterday, today and forever ? That same spirit should control and direct our lives. Anyone getting too hung up on precisely following "examples" in a practical sense, rather than the spirit of them, will undoubtedly follow some of these examples and ignore others. This should not be regarded as condemning practical "examples," but rather as drawing importance to the spirit influencing them.
|
|
delh
Junior Member
Posts: 56
|
Post by delh on Dec 4, 2007 13:06:18 GMT -5
fire wrote: ------- When reading the passages wherein Jesus send them forth two and two, do you also read of additional instructions given by Jesus to the 12 and 70?
I wonder why one instruction is cherry picked out of a list of instructions and deemed more worthy or more applicable to the Gospel call in the here and now. Do you have any idea why the one command should carry more weight then the others given by Jesus in the same passages?
Also, if the one command should be given more weight and does hold significant importance of how true preachers are to be sent out, then why in the book of Acts does the practice of going out in pairs only happen 8 out of 29 times Paul, Barnabas, and others were sent out?
looking forward to your response. ---------- ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Fire I have quoted below Jesus instruction to the 70, but I have gone back first to the last verses in Luke 9, since chapter 10 begins with the words after these things the LORD appointed other 70 also. I did this because what Jesus was saying just before He sent out the 70 seems pretty important to His instructions to the 70. Perhaps some of these He was speaking to were actually numbered among the 70??
In Luke 9:57 we have a man saying that he would follow Jesus whithersoever he would go. --- 57And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
Jesus response in verse 58 seems to lay down a condition for doing that. If Jesus had no certain dwelling place, then to follow Him would mean that the follower would have no certain dwelling place.
58And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
Another was asked to follow Jesus, but he had some thoughts of his own concerning what he needed to do. 59And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Jesus seemed to be telling him to put the kingdom first and to go forth and preach.
60Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
And yet another said he would follow Jesus, but he also had his own priorities.
61And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
62And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
Luke 10
1After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
We may not fully understand why Jesus sent them two and two, but in fact he did. I personally love the wording of the above verse, since it was accomplished as Jesus walked on the earth, and it is still applicable as the message goes forth even in our day and the "Lord whom you seek will suddenly comes into His temple".(Malachi)
2Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
It is interesting to me that Jesus uttered the above words also when He sent forth the 12. It shows me the importance to Jesus that the Church would continually be praying that the Lord would be sending forth laborers into His harvest field.
3Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
4Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
5And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
6And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
7And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
8And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
The above verses seem very consistent with what I would vision as an itinerant homeless ministry. The verse about their peace shall rest upon the house is one that I personally felt very strongly the first time the workers ever came to my home with the gospel message. I had never felt anything like it before in all of the church building I had regularly attended.
9And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
I am sure that this is the verse you are feeling is left out of the cherry picking. Namely PHYSICAL healing. It would appear that the 12 and the 70 were given the power to heal the sick. I am sure that you have heard the explanation that the healing of physical sickness was a sign to the Jews that their sins were forgiven since they strongly linked the two together. Of course the important thing is that the believers were cleansed of evil spirits, the devil. As we proceed through Acts and unto the gentiles, the later seemed to be the gift given the sent ones of God. I don't believe anyone is leaving this verse out of the instructions, it is more a matter is God concerned about the physical or the spiritual healing of the sinners.
10But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
11Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
12But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
16He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
Seems like the above verses are a dire warning that will be applicable until Jesus returns.
Del
|
|
ram
New Member
Posts: 22
|
Post by ram on Dec 5, 2007 5:17:11 GMT -5
QUOTE FROM DEHL'S POST ABOVE :
In Luke 9:57 we have a man saying that he would follow Jesus whithersoever he would go. --- 57And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
Jesus response in verse 58 seems to lay down a condition for doing that. If Jesus had no certain dwelling place, then to follow Him would mean that the follower would have no certain dwelling place. 58And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
Another was asked to follow Jesus, but he had some thoughts of his own concerning what he needed to do. 59And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Jesus seemed to be telling him to put the kingdom first and to go forth and preach. 60Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
And yet another said he would follow Jesus, but he also had his own priorities.
61And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
62And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.
RAM'S POST :
These are very interesting verses to raise Dehl. Thank you for posting them.
One thing which intriques me about the 70 or 72 disciples that Jesus subsequently chose to go out and preach, is why only Luke ever recorded them in his Gospel. The other three gospel writers either thought this event too insignificant or not an important enough part of the gospel story ? Also, Luke is credited in some extra-scriptural writings as being one of the seventy, so for him it may have been a very important event ?
Anyway, regarding these latter verses from chapter 9 in Luke's gospel. To my mind Jesus was seeking out recruits for that subsequent mission mentioned immediately thereafter in chapter 10, i.e. the sending out of the 70/72.
By this time we are quite some way into Jesus' short ministerial mission and therefore his time is short. The 12 had been sent out to the lost House of Israel and according to the written word had preached "everywhere" in that region. Now Jesus is preparing to send out the 72.
These 36 pairs were sent out "before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come." Therefore, this must have been a relatively short mission and one in which each pair of disciples actually visited only a few places, perhaps only one place each ? They were being sent to places where Jesus would himself go ! Think of it in realistic and practical terms.
This means that if each pair of disciples visited only one town or city, then Jesus had "36" towns and cities to go to. We have to keep in mind that Jesus was limited physically by his human form and travelled about on foot most of the time. Even visiting 36 towns and cities would have required some considerable time and effort. Business was slow no matter how fast he achieved it.
Now if each pair of disciples visited "ten" towns and cities, we are really considering an impossible feat for Jesus to pursue. Nevertheless he was an extremely busy man, even if limited to only 36 towns and cities.
It appears he did not commence visiting these places until the 72 returned, because verse 17 (ch.10) tells us about them returning and telling Jesus of their exploits. Common sense and logic tells us this was a short mission and that Jesus was going to be employed 36 fold what these 72 disciples had been doing. Just think how busy he was going to be compared to them.
Now to address the man in Ch. 9 vs 57. This man was clearly a follower of Jesus' teachings and therefore a disciple. He says to Jesus "Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest."
This man is now offering to follow Jesus in a geographical sense, but he does not know what lies ahead for Jesus, who has a bare minimum of 36 places to visit on foot over a fairly short period of time.
Jesus tells him " Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have their nests; but the Son of Man hath not where to lay his head."
This is the reality of what lies before Jesus. This statement applies specifically to him, the Son of Man, not to the 36 pairs of disciples or anyone else. When he sent out the 70 he told them to remain in the "same house," perhaps because they were only likely to visit one place ? They were told not to go from house to house (i.e. place to place ?).
Therefore the Son of Man who was going to be 36 times more itinerant than these disciples, clearly was going to be constantly on the move with his very urgent business. He certainly was going to have no set place to lay his head.
This urgency comes to the fore with the other two disciples, one who wanted to say "bye" to his folks and the other who wanted to wait and bury his Paw who was dying. In normal circumstances, these two would have been allowed their wishes, but Jesus wanted to impress the urgency and importance of this mission which began with putting Jesus first and foremost in their lives.
The missions of the 12 and the 70 were by and large missions of rejection as told in the parable of the man who was arranging a wedding feast. There was to be much hardship and the disciples had to be clear focussed on their task, otherwise it would have been too much for them.
Following Jesus is one of constant self denial and putting him first and foremost in our lives. "Forsaking all" is designed for the individual to build a close, personal relationship with Jesus.
In Luke 14 the masses followed the "showman" Jesus. He had to turn to them and say "if any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."
That's the reality of being a believer in Christ. However, from this it is clear that Jesus wants nothing to come between himself and the best possible relationship he can have individually with those who seek to follow his teachings.
|
|