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Post by Joe on Dec 5, 2007 10:22:55 GMT -5
Ram,
I thank you for your post... and the points you bring out about the 12/70 going out before Jesus.
I have been puzzling about this, why was there always someone going before him. John the Baptist was sent before Jesus, the 12 and then the 70.
We could even look at it as today Jesus sends others before him. We usually meet someone before Jesus comes, either one of God's children, or one of his ministers, then he comes to dwell when he is accepted.
I have notice lately that even in the Spirit's dealings, God doesn't leave question marks. He sends confirmation of what he has told us. Either there is someone else who has had the same revelation or in doing whatever it is we are prompted to do, there is a blessing that follows.
Has anyone else have any thoughts along these lines?
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delh
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Post by delh on Dec 5, 2007 12:07:52 GMT -5
Ram and Joe,
I have enjoyed both of your posts. Ram I hope that you are not questioning the validity of what Luke wrote about the 70. I would not say that just because an event is only recorded in one gospel that it is therefore unimportant to the other gospel writers. John tells us that if all of the events in Jesus life were written down then the world could not contain the books written.
Yes I agree He was a busy man, but I do not follow your logic on what it means to follow Him in the ministry. From the dates in my bible, He had about 3 months to visit the homes that the 70 went to. While you are correct that He would have been busy, I would guess that His travels were restricted to Israel which is not a huge country.
Joe, I too have also thought on the fact that Jesus first sent a ministry forth and then He himself came into the heart of the believers. Many have pointed out that we don't want to limit God in how He interacts with man, but it is important to understand how Jesus did things when He walked this earth. Maybe just maybe God was trying to tell us something about how he would like for man to have a small part in spreading the gospel story from faith to faith. Once we have a foundation of just exactly what Jesus did then we can decide whether it was important or not for that day or for our day. I will tend to believe that it is important for me and my day, while others are free to believe otherwise. Malachi 3 1Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
I enjoy the thoughts in Malachi along this line. The first verse speaks of a messenger coming before the LORD that we are seeking comes into the temple of our body. And that the one who comes to dwell in our hearts is the true messenger of the covenant that we learn to delight in. It then speaks of the change that goes on in our lives -- the purging and cleansing so that we can offer back to HIm the life that He has sanctified and cleansed. Paul put it that we should offer our lives a living sacrifice unto the Lord.
Del
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ram
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Post by ram on Dec 5, 2007 14:23:40 GMT -5
Dehl, Thanks for your comments. I am not questioning the validity of what Luke wrote, in fact it causes me to wonder about what other important facts we may not have been left with. I'm sure you would agree that the sending out of the 72 was a significant event, yet only one of the Gospel writers recorded it, whilst all four recorded the sending out of the 12. Its this imbalance that puzzles me.
The point I'm trying to make about Jesus at this time is that although the 72 disciples may only have had 36 towns or cities to visit (i.e. one per pair/hypothetically speaking), Jesus therefore had 36 ! He was to visit them all. Now this is a bare minimum figure. It could have been two or three times that number, but the more I think of it I'm inclined to believe he sent one pair of disciples to a single place he had not yet been. That being the case, visiting 36 places in 3 months would still been a tough task, considering most of his travels would have been on foot and that he would have to spend at least a couple of days at least in the places where the disciples had been received.
In comparing the ministry of the 72 and the ministry of Jesus it is clear that his was a lot more demanding and hectic and involved considerably more travel. Anyway, a lot of this is just hypothetical or speculative.
Joe, John the Baptist was sent to be a witness to the light (Jesus). At that time the message was still under the age of the law and being delivered to those under that law, i.e. the Jews/Israel. I might be wrong in making a connection here, but under the law the truth of a matter was established by the testimony of two or more witnesses. Now the testimonies need not be heard at the same time (John and Jesus were approx. 6 months apart) but it is more convenient that way. Also the testimony of Jesus and the disciples was confirmed by the various signs (miracles) God empowered them with.
As far as Jesus' ministry was concerned, it was a very demanding affair. Perhaps the 12 and the 72 were sent out or sent ahead to prepare his way, i.e. making delivery quicker if not easier. After all his time was short. In the case of the 72, they were to go where he was to come. They were not to go from house to house (place to place ?) but to remain in the one house. Maybe they were preparing a temporary den for the fox or a nest for the bird ? whenever he would come ? (Just my thoughts). Sort of arranging a tour ?
One important consideration is that the Holy Ghost had not been sent yet. That happened after Pentecost and it now accompanies God's servants. The Holy Ghost is a witness to the word nowadays in the hearts and minds of believers as it comes to indwell in them. This is something that did not happen until the Great Commission went out into the world. In other words, the servants from the Great Commission onwards, did not need to go and prepare the way for the Messaih, they bring him with them in the form of the Holy Ghost. There is no longer a need for two witnesses under the law as we are under Grace, and besides Jesus himself (Holy Ghost) bears witness to us and of us.
Don't read too much into what I'm saying. These are just some thoughts I play around with from time to time.
I'm sure you will agree that when you hear God's truths, you feel it confirmed in your heart. That is the Holy Spirit writing it there.
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selah
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Post by selah on Dec 6, 2007 0:31:45 GMT -5
Hi Del,
There were many things Jesus taught that were and are timeless. Even in prayer, He literally included us, we who are alive and believing today!! The only way to remove remove the life from Jesus' teachings is to limit them to the letter by quenching the Spirit. Otherwise they are ALIVE and powerful!
But SOME teachings were time/location specific. When read in context with the whole chapter, book and the whole Bible, these are not that difficult to distinguish. There were likely many things Jesus did that were never intended to be ongoing practices. For some that's a matter of interpretation...for example...Jesus kept the 7th Day Sabbath and the Feast Days of Judaism, but most believers today do not. To make the point, an extreme example would be that Jesus went to the mountain to pray...but of course, we don't feel we have to do that.
The mission given in Matt. 28 was the great commission. The intent is clear that it would be ongoing.
I've appreciated all the comments here, including yours Del...thanks. While we may not agree on everything, I'm so glad we can communicate with love and respect.
I've always found I learn the most in this kind of interaction...just discussing different points of view sometimes sheds new light, a new perspective....and sometimes a revelation is born out of a simple Spirit-filled discussion! By inviting His Spirit to guide the discussion, those participating demonstrate their sole motivation of drawing closer to God and His truth. It's less about converting one another than it is about seeking God together.
Blessings, Linda
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ram
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Post by ram on Dec 6, 2007 14:19:06 GMT -5
Having given some more thought to the sending out of the 12 and the 70/72 I thought I might share what's currently occupying my mind that I might benefit from the responses and input of others.
Formerly I had mistakenly assumed the very brief mention that the Apostle John made in his gospel to Jesus selecting disciples, was a reference to him sending out the 12. In actual fact, John makes very little reference to the contributions of the disciples and other than focussing upon Jesus, it is John the Baptist whom he gives some attention to. Anyone attempting to justify a "form of ministry" from John's gospel far less a 2 and 2 one, will find extremely sparse pickings there. Odd that "the disciple whom Jesus loved" and who took on board the responsibility for Mary, the mother of Jesus at the crucifixion, should not have seen fit to include this ?
Anyway, another Apostle Matthew covered the sending out of the 12 and surrounding circumstances in some detail. Mark's account is similar to Matthew's but much more concise. Neither mention the sending out of the 70/72.
Luke, the Gentile, alone covers the sending out of the 70/72. Our main authorities for the sending out the 12 and the 70/72 are Matthew and Luke respectively, with Luke the only one to give an account of both.
Until today I had assumed that the 12 were sent out to prepare the way for Jesus coming to the same areas they were sent and that later on the 70/72 were a repeat of this feat but on a larger scale. How erroneous I have been !
Matt. Chapter 4 verse 12 onwards tells us that after John the Baptist had been imprisoned, Jesus left Nazareth and went to "dwell" at Capernaum in the Galilee region. This fulfilled OT prophesy. Interestingly (and please take note),, Galilee was known as "Galilee of the Gentiles," indicating a large amount of gentiles resided in this area.
Jesus then began to teach in the Galilee area and made his sermon on the mount. Afterwards, Jesus then started selecting disciples, from a pool of which he selected the 12 Apostles. These came from the region of Galilee (of the Gentiles !).
Matt. 10 tells us these Apostles were instructed "not to go into the way of the Gentiles, or the city of the Samaritans." In Mark's Gospel Jesus explains at this time that a Prophet has no honour in his own country !
They were sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel to preach the Kingdom of God is at hand. In Mark's Gospel Ch.9 vs. 6 we are told they went through the towns, preaching the gospel, and healing "everywhere." Presumably "everywhere" means within the greater region but outwith the areas where the gentiles and Samaritans were found - i.e Galilee ?
Now these 12 Disciples were from the Galilee area and had been commanded to go to other areas to preach the Kingdom of God. They would have had concerns about their friends and neighbours in the Galilee area not receiving the gospel. However, Jesus took care of that himself. He sent the best to their home areas, i.e. himself ! Matt:11 Ch. 1 tells us that after Jesus had made an end to commanding his 12 Disciples, he departed thence to teach and preach in THEIR cities !
At some point afterwards the 12 returned to Jesus and soon we find them in the desert with 5,000 followers.
Then in Luke's gospel ch.10 we read of Jesus sending out another 70/72 disciples before his face to every city and place, whither he himself would come.
These cities and places were in the Galilee area. Galilee is a relatively small area geographically speaking, but it is awkward with high mountains and a large inland sea. Even if the 35/36 pairs of disciples were only to go to one city, town or area each, it would still have been a taxing time for Jesus to get round these places within the space of a few months.
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selah
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Post by selah on Dec 6, 2007 14:56:45 GMT -5
The Sea of Galilee was basically the boundary between the Jewish regions on the west shore and the Gentile regions on the east shore. The Gentile region around the Galilee was known as the Decapolis (10 Greek cities).
Then he returned from the region of Tyre, and went through Sidon to the Sea of Galilee, through the region of the Decapolis. Kind of a round about route Jesus took, eh? Some have said it would have taken approximately 8 months for him to make that trip. I think Tyre and Sidon were primarily Gentile too.
Blessings, Linda
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ram
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Post by ram on Dec 6, 2007 15:29:14 GMT -5
Thanks for that Linda. What you've said helps to make more sense of things. The Gospels of Matthew and Luke, although our chief authorities on these events, are actually out of synch chronologically speaking with some points. However, if we regard the sending out of the 12 and the 70/72 as occurring within a fairly short time frame and with a short time frame in between, then we can see a sensible pattern of events. It may be that at or about the same time as Jesus started preaching in the cities of Galilee (post sending out the 12) that he also sent out the 70/72 ahead of him, or shortly thereafter ?
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Post by Kim on Dec 7, 2007 16:26:56 GMT -5
To Delh: RE: Yes I agree He was a busy man, but I do not follow your logic on what it means to follow Him in the ministry. From the dates in my bible, He had about 3 months to visit the homes that the 70 went to. While you are correct that He would have been busy, I would guess that His travels were restricted to Israel which is not a huge country.
***What Bible version are you using that has dates in it? Thats a feature I would really like to have.
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delh
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Post by delh on Dec 8, 2007 10:07:36 GMT -5
Kim, I have an Allan 24 edition of the KJV of the bible. It has a very good concordance in it. In the concordance under Christ, harmony of life of, in has a section detailing the events, dates, and location of the event, in chronological order. Del
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Post by Kim on Dec 8, 2007 21:11:27 GMT -5
Delh: do you mean you have a bible published by R. L. Allan & Sons? Is it one of the Oxford KJV Bibles? Or another one? (I can't find any listing by googling: Allen 24) Thank you.
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delh
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Post by delh on Dec 8, 2007 21:16:42 GMT -5
Delh: do you mean you have a bible published by R. L. Allan & Sons? Is it one of the Oxford KJV Bibles? Or another one? (I can't find any listing by googling: Allen 24) Thank you. Yes. Perhaps it no longer is printed? I believe the Allan 26 has the same concordance. Del
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Post by Kim on Dec 8, 2007 23:15:21 GMT -5
RE DelH: Yes I agree He was a busy man, but I do not follow your logic on what it means to follow Him in the ministry. From the dates in my bible, He had about 3 months to visit the homes that the 70 went to. While you are correct that He would have been busy, I would guess that His travels were restricted to Israel which is not a huge country.
Delh: What dates does your Bible Harmony give for the 70 going out and coming back? And for the 12 going out and coming back?
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Post by nathanb on Dec 10, 2007 1:36:13 GMT -5
It seems to me John 17 offers clues how important the ministry was. Jesus starts out by praying, "I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." Nearly all of this chapter is about the apostles - a strong indication that at least part of the work God gave Jesus to do was setting up a ministry. Imagine the impact that ministry had at that time. (New wine, and the old bottles burst with anger over it.) He wasn't praying for the apostles alone but for "all them that would believe on on me thought their word", and that they (apostles - disciples) may all be one with Jesus and the Father. This is a very good chapter to read over often. As far as the ministry being specific to that time - I would have to ignore too many words Jesus spoke to agree. Looks like very thin ice to me. Yes, I agree about the itinerant ministry of Jesus was VERY important part of his life.... Salvation came to those who believed in his words, teachings through his Itinerant ministry!
So while he was alive he sent=apostle forth 82 men to carry on and continue His Gospel work of Salvation after he ascended back to heaven.
His death on the Cross would be invain if there were NO men and women to tell His Divine love, death, and sacrificed on Calvary's cross.
So God has been calling and sending men and women forth as Itinerant ministers of the Gospel since the time of the early apostles in EVERY generation to continue on the Gospel work of Christ to the end of time.
Therefore Luke recorded how the apostles and his disciples continue the work of Christ in the book of Acts as Jesus had commanded them when He said, "Ye shall receive power, when the Holy Ghost comes upon you (Acts 2) ye shall be MY Witnessess! both in Jerusalem, in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the utmost part of the earth.... (Acts 1:8)
Before Jesus died he said, "And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be PREACHED (by human beings) in ALL the world, for a Witness unto ALL nations; and then shall the END comes." (Matthew 24:14)
~~~ Men and women have received Salvation through hearing the Itinerant ministry and the disciples of Jesus through down the ages....
Faith comes by HEARING, and HEARING by the word of God. (Romans 10:17) For whoseover shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be SAVED.... How beautiful are the FEET of them that PREACH the Gospel of peace, and bring lad tidings of good things.
~~~ God has been calling and sending forth men and women into His harvest field for 2,000 yr... With men this is Impossible but with God NOTHING is impossible. (Acts 2:17-21)
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Post by nathanb on Dec 10, 2007 10:10:13 GMT -5
John 6 - 21: Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went. Sounds like they went faster than the speed of sound - would have there been a sonic boom? Seriously, this verse illustrates Jesus wasn't confined by what we think of as the laws of nature. I agree Jesus, the son of man and the son of God walked on the water, the stormy sea became imediately calm down at his command, he could command the fish to come at certain at his own thoughts, he found money in a fish's mouth when he wanted to pay taxes... he appeared and disappeared in thin air at will after his resurrection. When Jesus was taken up in the sky seeing by eyewitnesses....
How? Jesus was/is God the Son and the Son of God and man.
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delh
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Post by delh on Dec 10, 2007 11:58:35 GMT -5
[quote author=Kim board=general thread=1196111445 post=1197173721
Delh: What dates does your Bible Harmony give for the 70 going out and coming back? And for the 12 going out and coming back?
[/quote]
Kim, I don't have my bible in front of me, but I believe the dates given for the 12 being sent out is about 15 months before Jesus died on the cross. Much later in His ministry then I would have thought from where it appears in the gospels. It does not list a date or event for their coming back. I do not recall any event of the the 12 coming back. That is why I previously asked the question when did the mission end? In reality I picture Jesus not very far from them the whole time they were going out. I believe they still spent much time with Jesus during this time. As already mentioned Jesus time during this period was mostly around Galilee.
The date given for the 70 being sent out is about a year later or about 3 months before Jesus died. Jesus was mostly in the region just east of the Jordan and in Bethany, Jerico, Jerusalem, and some up into Ephraim and even the edge of Samaria. A rather small area about 20 miles on a side. Again there is no date given for when the 70 returned. We do know that Luke mentioned at one point they came to Jesus in the verses cited below rejoicing. I don't believe this means that the mission that they were sent on ended at this time. Like the 12 that were sent earlier I picture the 70 having lots of contacts with Jesus as they went forth with the gospel message. He did tell them he would follow and come where they had been.
17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
21In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
22All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
23And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
24For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
The date given for the exchange with the rich young ruler was sometime in the month just before Jesus died. That is where Peter said Lo we have left all and followed thee. Doesn't appear from this discourse that Peter or Jesus believed that what Jesus had asked him to do was over and ended.
Del
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