Did the workers lied about history of the truth?

[geoff]

Alan said:

geoff said:

Alan

Has anyone tried to suggest to you that our fellowship has been in continuous, connected existence since Jesus day? That there have been workers in the same way that we have today, in a continuous succession since Jesus day?

It has never been suggested to me of any continuous physical fellowship.
But it has been told to me and I agree that there has been a continuous spiritual fellowship.
I have no way of knowing that there has been workers in the same way that we have today, in a continuous succession since Jesus day. But I would have to say that I would not be supprised that there have been at times those who worship God in that manner.

Thanks Alan,

Thats how I see it. Not claiming a continuous succession of workers throughout history, but agreeing that god has always had fellowship with the born again, those He has saved.

Problem arises when some (a minority) claim that there has been workers who have handed this message on one to another, no gaps, since Jesus day all conne cted to our workers today.
Then those who know this to be untrue challenge this uninformed claim and there's an argument.

It all misses out whats important, and focusses on whats not important.

[selah]

Thats how I see it. Not claiming a continuous succession of workers throughout history, but agreeing that god has always had fellowship with the born again, those He has saved.

AMEN! That's how I see it too...now. You mentioned that it's a minority that believe in the continuous succession of workers all the way back to the 1st century. Is that a minority of the f&w that you know, or is it a factual statement based on research of the group as a whole worldwide? Within the group of f&w that I've known throughout my life, it is a majority that believe that.

Since there is so much ambiguity involved, I think it's very important to clarify whether one is speaking of the "truth of God" (meaning His provision of Jesus Christ for redemption and restoration) or the system of fellowship and ministry that some folks refer to as the "Truth."

When someone says the Truth/truth has no founder and goes all the way back to the 1st century, it can easily be misunderstood.

You're right the whole "confusion" distracts from what is vitally important. It's my personal opinion that our enemy, he that seeks to destroy fellowship between believers and God, has used this tactic long enough. He is the author of confusion, and I'm just plain tired of the damage he's been causing.

We need to unite against him, so the barriers between us can be removed. Those who are born again are indeed the children of God, and we have family ties that go all the way back to the shores of Galilee.

Instead of working against one another, we need to work together against the real culprit...Satan, the father of lies. Many of us fell into his deceptions. I'm so glad our Father rescued me from them; not from the f&w meetings, but from believing lies that were separating me from my brothers and sisters in Christ who worshipped in other groups. They are his lies, and unfortunately some of us believed them. They are still creating a divide between some f&w and some exes. Let's not have any more of it!

We can get it straightened out. Nothing is impossible with God. If we ask His Spirit to bring us into truth...His truth (without our own perceptions of what that is in reference to doctrines and systems)...we can depend on Him to do that. He has promised that His Spirit would guide us into all truth. Every believer who is concerned about the separation between brothers and sisters in Christ ought to be in fervent prayer for the revelation of God's truth in our hearts.

Let's commit to be dedicated in prayer for the unity of believers in Him. I'd be interested to see what happens with a concentrated prayer effort over the next year.

Blessings,
Linda

[delh]

Quote:
Thats how I see it. Not claiming a continuous succession of workers throughout history, but agreeing that god has always had fellowship with the born again, those He has saved.

Linda,
I also agree strongly with the above quote of Geoff's, but I am a bit surprised that you say Amen to it. How do you define workers? I am not aware of other groups that you have fellowship with using that term?

Quote:
Since there is so much ambiguity involved, I think it's very important to clarify whether one is speaking of the "truth of God" (meaning His provision of Jesus Christ for redemption and restoration) or the system of fellowship and ministry that some folks refer to as the "Truth."

Is the "truth of God" only the provision of Jesus Christ? Is the life of Jesus and all that he taught not also part of the "truth of God"? Has it lost its relevancy for today Are the standards He set for those who would follow Him into the ministry no longer important? Why were they "His truths" to the early disciples but now are unimportant? There was no ambiguity when he said Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests but I the Son of man have not where to lay my head. There was no ambiguity when he told the rich young ruler -- sell all that you have and come follow me. There was no ambiguity when Peter responded --Lord we have left all---.

If we are children of the Father and He has certain standards for His children in the household of faith, would you refer to that as a system or part of His Truths?

Del

[selah]

Linda,
I also agree strongly with the above quote of Geoff's, but I am a bit surprised that you say Amen to it. How do you define workers? I am not aware of other groups that you have fellowship with using that term?

Hi Del,

When Geoff used the word "workers," I thought he was referencing the Workers of the f&w. Here is his statement:

Thats how I see it. Not claiming a continuous succession of workers throughout history, but agreeing that god has always had fellowship with the born again, those He has saved.

If, he was talking about workers in general, ie. people who carry out the Lord's work (loving, caring for the poor, evangelizing), then, I believe there IS a continuous succession of these workers throughout history.

Quote:
Since there is so much ambiguity involved, I think it's very important to clarify whether one is speaking of the "truth of God" (meaning His provision of Jesus Christ for redemption and restoration) or the system of fellowship and ministry that some folks refer to as the "Truth."

Is the "truth of God" only the provision of Jesus Christ?

Jesus is the truth, the way and the life. Of course there are many other truths of God, but they are all wrapped up in the person of Jesus Christ. I do not see any scripture that equates a specific style of worship or ministry as the truth.

Is the life of Jesus and all that he taught not also part of the "truth of God"?

Yes, Jesus life exemplified the truth of God. He taught love and compassion. He taught about reliance on our Father. His specific teaching about worship was that the Father seeks those who worship in Spirit and in truth. That seems to take priority over the place of worship, or the method of ministry etc.

Has it lost its relevancy for today Are the standards He set for those who would follow Him into the ministry no longer important?

The intent of Jesus' ministry is very relevent today, and the standards He set are vitally important. We just disagree on what the essence of his ministry was.

Why were they "His truths" to the early disciples but now are unimportant?

There were specific and time-related reasons for the way He initiated those first followers into ministry. For example, I would not consider "Sending them out in twos" as one of God's truths. I would see that as a relevent instruction for their circumstance at the time. God always has perfect timing, and perfect planning for every situation. I see no evidence for that instruction being categorized as one of God's truths, while at the same time, I see it as one of many varieties of taking His truth to the world.

There was no ambiguity when he said Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests but I the Son of man have not where to lay my head.

Jesus did have a home, and so did the disciples. They left their homes for a specific mission. Jesus' time was short, and there was an urgent need to establish a following before his physical presence left the earth. That's why there was a need to drop everything at the time.

There was no ambiguity when he told the rich young ruler -- sell all that you have and come follow me.

The rich young ruler was asked to sell all, because Jesus knew there was resistance in his heart. It was said so the young man would examine himself more deeply. The young man's question was not "What must I do to enter the ministry?" but "What must I do to inherit eternal life?" Does this mean we all must sell everything to have eternal life? No. Jesus specifically said to sell all to that individual, because he saw the lack in him. When read in context, it doesn't seem as though it was given as an instruction for entering the ministry.

There was no ambiguity when Peter responded --Lord we have left all---.

Yes, the first ones left all for awhile to carry out a time-sensitive mission. Jesus would soon be gone from them. Sometimes today, God asks the same thing, and people respond in the same way...even outside of the f&w. But, He has many areas of ministry; many different needs and circumstances that are quite different from the 1st century. These require specific and relevent attention. I'm talking about methods here. Of course, the needs of humanity remain the same from generation to generation, and it's still the living God who satisfies.

If we are children of the Father and He has certain standards for His children in the household of faith, would you refer to that as a system or part of His Truths?

I guess we have to be careful once again concerning semantics. When you say "standards," do you mean the characteristics of the Spirit of God...like love compassion, integrity, purity etc.? OR, do you mean "standards" as in style of worship and method of ministry? If your reference is to the latter, I believe God has shown Himself to be very flexible, to be most effective in each situation.

Even Jesus changed things from the first "sending out" to the next. He had reasons for doing that, and He is the same today. In character, God has no shadow of turning...He is ALWAYS the same, but He may have a variety of ways in which He'll carry His plan to completion. He is Almighty and can do whatever He wants. I haven't found scripture to convince me that He's restricted to any form or structure, except for that of love and holiness.

Blessings,
Linda

[fire]

geoff said:

Alan

Has anyone tried to suggest to you that our fellowship has been in continuous, connected existence since Jesus day? That there have been workers in the same way that we have today, in a continuous succession since Jesus day?

I believed in my heart of hearts that there has always been workers of the fellowship meetings through out the ages. I do not recall anyone directly telling me this, but it was a cornerstone of my understanding.

The suggestion that the fellowship was only 110 years old was laughable to me while I was professing.

Thinking back over my years in the fellowship, everything seemed to culminate and foster this belief, even down to the terminology used in meetings.

I still believe there is a large group of friends who are totally unaware of the fellowship's history, as I was until a few years ago.

Writing this reminds me of a conversation I had with a ex-worker who did not find out about the history until after he had entered the work. It was a total shock to him, as it was to me, since we both believed there had always been a continuous line throughout the ages.

[fire]

I was shocked and upset when I found out the history, but I never felt lied to by any one person.

I understand why those in the past would choose to suppress any discussion of the fellowship's history, but often the cover-up is far worse then the "crime".

After finding out the truth, where did that leave me? It forced me to answer very serious questions.

• If the fellowship is God's only true way, then does that mean all those before 1897 where lost?
  
  
• Or does it mean that other church groups, existing prier to 1897, were included in God's only true way?
  
  
• If I was totally clueless about something so obvious as the fellowship's history, what else am I unaware of when it comes to the meetings?
  

[nathanb]

1) Fire wrote:
I was shocked and upset when I found out the history, but I never felt lied to by any one person.

I understand why those in the past would choose to suppress any discussion of the fellowship's history, but often the cover-up is far worse then the "crime".

After finding out the truth, where did that leave me? It forced me to answer very serious questions.

• If the fellowship is God's only true way, then does that mean all those before 1897 where lost?
  
  ~~~ Nathan: God's true Way as you read in the Gospel, the book of Acts has always been around since the time of Christ, the apostles and his disciples... People have been SAVED in every generation because God has raised up men and women to carry on the Gospel of Salvation through believing in Christ as the Truth and Way to God.
  
  B)
• Or does it mean that other church groups, existing prior to 1897, were included in God's only true way?
  
  ~~~ Nathan: Yes, there were others similiar 2x2 Itinerant preachers/workers exist 1800 years prior to William Irvine. These Vaudois, Paulicans, Waldenses, Cathars, Albigenses, etc.. apostles and Christian claimed they were God's true Way. So, William Irvine and different 2x2 workers are NOT the first ones to claim this 2x2 fellowship is God's True Way.
  
  

[Alan C]

geoff said:

Alan said:

It has never been suggested to me of any continuous physical fellowship.
But it has been told to me and I agree that there has been a continuous spiritual fellowship.
I have no way of knowing that there has been workers in the same way that we have today, in a continuous succession since Jesus day. But I would have to say that I would not be supprised that there have been at times those who worship God in that manner.

Thanks Alan,

Thats how I see it. Not claiming a continuous succession of workers throughout history, but agreeing that god has always had fellowship with the born again, those He has saved.

Problem arises when some (a minority) claim that there has been workers who have handed this message on one to another, no gaps, since Jesus day all conne cted to our workers today.
Then those who know this to be untrue challenge this uninformed claim and there's an argument.

It all misses out whats important, and focusses on whats not important.

I really think Geoff that it can't be proved conclusively either way.
I really wouldn't like to say there was or was not, in case I was wrong.
But really speaking the truth, it matters not.

[Alan C]

geoff said:

Alan said:

It has never been suggested to me of any continuous physical fellowship.
But it has been told to me and I agree that there has been a continuous spiritual fellowship.
I have no way of knowing that there has been workers in the same way that we have today, in a continuous succession since Jesus day. But I would have to say that I would not be supprised that there have been at times those who worship God in that manner.

Thanks Alan,

Thats how I see it. Not claiming a continuous succession of workers throughout history, but agreeing that god has always had fellowship with the born again, those He has saved.

Problem arises when some (a minority) claim that there has been workers who have handed this message on one to another, no gaps, since Jesus day all conne cted to our workers today.
Then those who know this to be untrue challenge this uninformed claim and there's an argument.

It all misses out whats important, and focusses on whats not important.

Just to add a qualification, that those who are born again must be in the manner that God laid down.
But that is for God to judge.

[geoff]

Linda said
"AMEN! That's how I see it too...now. You mentioned that it's a minority that believe in the continuous succession of workers all the way back to the 1st century. Is that a minority of the f&w that you know, or is it a factual statement based on research of the group as a whole worldwide? Within the group of f&w that I've known throughout my life, it is a majority that believe that. "

But I didn';t say that a majority believe in continuous succession, I spoke about a minority claiming it. There s a difference.
As to what people believe... in my experience its a regional variation. There are those on each side of the argument everywhere, but from what I see, for example, in USA a majority probably go for continuous succession. Other places different.


Nathan said..
God's true Way as you read in the Gospel, the book of Acts has always been around since the time of Christ, the apostles and his disciples... People have been SAVED in every generation because God has raised up men and women to carry on the Gospel of Salvation through believing in Christ as the Truth and Way to God.

But this is a typically ambiguous statement. Technically its quite correct. But some will interpret it to mean that our fellowship "been around since the time of Christ".
Now thats not what Nathan said, he dind't claim in that statement a continuous connected succession of workers (as in our fellowship workers) from Jesus day to today.
But his statement is similar to those used by some who do claim that.

Alan said..
I really think Geoff that it can't be proved conclusively either way.
I think that it could be proved one way quite easily, but no-one seems able.
For example some evidence of the names of workers prior to say 1880, some convention dates, a workers list etc. Producing some of those for the years 33 - 1880 would be a good proof. BUt that unlikely that anyone will do that.
Is it possible to prove that our fellowship did not exist prior to 1880? Pretty hard to prove a negative.

[a funny question]

I am forever befuddled by this silly question.

It is totally erroneous in context.

It is no more of a ''lie'' than it would be to say that

Mary and Joseph ''lied'' about the origin of Jesus and how his

birth came about.

It seems according to the Roman law, that Joseph would have ''claimed'' to be Jesus father, in order to avoid any shame toward his young wife.

Yet, if Mary would have rightfully claimed that God was Jesus father, would she NOT be held as a looonie and to suggest that God was her mating partner???

It certainly was a NO win situation, that had to be ''COVERED UP'' somehow, and even so in the religious world today, we find many many that are very perplexed about this very issue, and some say Mary is the mother of God, and God is both the father and the son, how can God be both?

[eagle]

God doesn't send out workers, i.e. a select group of preachers to do the work. All followers are disciples and have the responsiblities of spreading the good news of salvation. This was one of the biggest revelations to me when I finally got things straight and learned more about the Bible, the cultures of the time and what a personal relationship with the Lord means instead of just following along in "the way" and being stale and starving.

[Richard McFarland]

eagle said:

God doesn't send out workers, i.e. a select group of preachers to do the work. All followers are disciples and have the responsiblities of spreading the good news of salvation. This was one of the biggest revelations to me when I finally got things straight and learned more about the Bible, the cultures of the time and what a personal relationship with the Lord means instead of just following along in "the way" and being stale and starving.

Welcome to the board, eagle.

I do agree with much of what you say because we do not read in the Bible of a Commandment showing we must send out "2 by 2" as Jesus Christ did. Jesus sent out Apostles, not workers and these Apostles were given the Spirit of God to "Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils." The same power was given to the 70. But also there is no Commandment against this practice either.

I have professed for over 35 years and even through the rough times with "my Spirit" being judged by Workers I have never turned my back on Jesus. He has never let me down.

We all have the responsibility of spreading the Good News to others whenever we can and where ever the opportunity arises. Please don't judge the professing friends by what you may have not observed. We all do spread the Good News and in many more ways than just "looking professing." (Hey, I have a goatee and sometimes don't shave for meeting and only get my hair cut twice a year. I'm still standing and it has nothing to do with my spirit or my refusing to follow edict.)

While I have seen both some professing friends and workers (disciples all) who may be dry and humorless. I have not found them to be "stale & starving." That would probably be my fault for not being to pay attention to a dry, humorless speaker. (I've fallen asleep in seminars with people like this so the problem is widespread. ) This is personality and in the jobs I've had I meet several hundred new people each season and see the same amongst the clients I have. Each is different.

It is also essential we believe that in order to understand more of the Holy Bible we must be willing to learn more about the time of Jesus and even the Old Testament times from as much history as has been found and published. Even many of the words translated in the King James Bible which were translated from the original Greek had a very different meaning in the Greek and even in the Old English of the KJV. I often look up words I know the meaning of because most good dictionaries will have the modern meaning and the Archaic meaning.

My relationship with the Lord is personal and very few people can understand it or even admit He has spoken to me. Not like I go sit on a hill and He speaks out of a cloud or anything but with a touch in prayer, a comfort from nowhere during times of extreme stress, (and my mom and some of the professing women here call me "Job") physical pain, heartache and loss. Jesus gives me direction when others have ignored me and my daughter.

I fully believe that we can have this personal relationship at anytime we want to enter into it and (almost) anywhere we are. I believe that no Christian Group is exclusive. Jesus Himself proved this. Jesus does not need a way or church or temple to find our spirit and indwell in us when He is invited. A church is a place for worship and fellowship and edification of that spirit and relationship. We take from meetings what the Lord intends for us to take and implement in our daily lives, backed by Scripture.

I welcome you and your alternative views. None of those who wish to Love and Serve God through His Son Jesus Christ can ever be too far from each other unless we separate ourselves.

I have no desire to separate myself from this way or the fellowship of friends I have in Christ through it. I do not condemn other Christians. I will call an evil person an evil person. I live to serve Jesus, raise my daughter and fight Satan and injustice which usually live together.

Be In Peace With
Christ Each Day,

Richard McFarland

[selah]

Hi Geoff,

But I didn';t say that a majority believe in continuous succession, I spoke about a minority claiming it. There s a difference.

I'm sorry I misquoted you, and yes, there is a difference between believing something and claiming something. I just find it odd that someone would claim something if he didn't believe it. Why would he do that? I'm likely just misunderstanding something here...sorry Geoff.

Blessings,
Linda

[selah]

Hi Richard,

Jesus does not need a way or church or temple to find our spirit and indwell in us when He is invited. A church is a place for worship and fellowship and edification of that spirit and relationship. We take from meetings what the Lord intends for us to take and implement in our daily lives, backed by Scripture.

I welcome you and your alternative views. None of those who wish to Love and Serve God through His Son Jesus Christ can ever be too far from each other unless we separate ourselves.

Thank you for posting these comments. You are building bridges, and I appreciate you.

Blessings,
Linda