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Post by BruceM on Nov 24, 2007 11:02:19 GMT -5
Amens all around LaRon. I can remember as a young person being asked "what's your doctrine?" and the only thing I could think of was 2x2 ministers and church in the home. I was pretty pathetic after decades of meetings. Like yourself, today I don't talk about the system at all, but point out what Christ has done for me, and how my life has changed exponentially for the better because of my faith. Chris, I echo a hearty Amen. Thanks for sharing. When I was so focused on the form, it became an idol to me. A sobering question for me was: "What do you talk about when you meet someone not in our fellowship?" In the past, I would talk about our church and the benefits of our method and form, and was uncomfortable talking about Christ. Now it is the other way around. To God be the glory, LaRon Terminology can become misleading. Are we "right" to refer to our fellowship group as "God's kingdom"? Are we "right" to imply that "God's people" are only found within our fellowship group? Are we "right" to refer to our fellowship group as "the truth" when Jesus used that term in refering to himself? Are we "right" to refer to our fellowship group as "the way" when Jesus used that term in refering to himself? Are we "right" to expect people showing interest in our church to renounce their previous experience with God and become "unsaved" so they can become "saved" in our fellowship group? "What" we belong to doesn't make us "right". It's better to consider "who" we belong to. Christ's sheep hear his voice and follow him, and need not fear. It's the Father's good pleasure to give them the kingdom. In the gospels we read of times when the disciples tried to hinder people from coming to Jesus, judging them unworthy of the Master's time and attention. It grieved him then, and I believe it grieves him now. Chris R
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geoff
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Post by geoff on Nov 24, 2007 13:35:17 GMT -5
Amen LaRon, Bruce.
Focus on what (who) saves, not focus on the byproducts.
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Post by nathanb on Nov 24, 2007 16:44:40 GMT -5
1) BruceM wrote: Amens all around LaRon. I can remember as a young person being asked "what's your doctrine?" and the only thing I could think of was 2x2 ministers and church in the home. I was pretty pathetic after decades of meetings. Like yourself, today I don't talk about the system at all, but point out what Christ has done for me, and how my life has changed exponentially for the better because of my faith. ~~ Nathan: The question is "Are we the Only ones right?"
Hey! BruceM... Welcome, to the ST message board my friend. Good to see, perhaps we can get some interesting discussion on here.
Thanks, guys... Well, for myself I just share my testimony how Christ has changed my life, and how He has made my life much happier than before I met Him. Now, I know the purpose of life and why? I am here on the earth.
Point to others to Christ then we can't go wrong because He is the Truth and the Way to Salvation and Eternal life.
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Post by Joe on Nov 24, 2007 21:20:16 GMT -5
I think in the early days we, myself included, talked about the form more than the things he has done for me, because I had not experienced the difference yet. It wasn't until I was in my mid twenties that I started understanding what the difference was. It really was years later though that I started presenting it as something that had happened to me instead of something we do to be right.
First understanding then wisdom.
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Post by nathanb on Nov 25, 2007 0:48:57 GMT -5
I think in the early days we, myself included, talked about the form more than the things he has done for me, because I had not experienced the difference yet. It wasn't until I was in my mid twenties that I started understanding what the difference was. It really was years later though that I started presenting it as something that had happened to me instead of something we do to be right. First understanding then wisdom. Yes, most of us have learned from our own trials and errors... Wisdom grows as we get older. Sometimes we wish we had the knowlege and understanding we've now when we were younger then it would have saved us a lot of headaches, sorrow, and pains.
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Post by Chris on Nov 25, 2007 20:53:57 GMT -5
La Ron wrote: "When I was so focused on the form, it became an idol to me."
Yes, idolatry creeps up on us. The bronze snake that Moses made is one example from scripture where something good became something bad over time.
It seems that the bronze serpent was a type of Christ the Saviour who was yet to come, and a doomed Israelite could look to it and be saved.
But a few generations came and went and the bronze snake became an object of worship and a snare. (See the scripture below.)
When the sole purpose of our method and form is to point people to Christ it is a good thing, but the moment it becomes an object of worship and usurps the rightful place of Christ, then it becomes counter-productive and a snare.
We rightly sing words like “Jesus alone can save me”, and “God forbid that I should glory, save in Jesus and his cross”.
Can Jesus alone save me? Or can I only be saved by belonging to the right Christian group?
Do I glory only in Jesus and his cross? Or do I glory in the rightness of our form and method?
We shouldn't expect to enjoy spiritual prosperity unltil Christ is exalted to his rightful place.
Chris
***************************************** Numbers 21:6-9 Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people. The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live." So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.
2 Kings 18:1-4 In the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, Hezekiah son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign. He was twenty-five years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem twenty-nine years. His mother's name was Abijah daughter of Zechariah. He did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father David had done. He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.)
John 3:14-17 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
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Post by Joe on Nov 25, 2007 22:20:56 GMT -5
The form was never an idol to me. I would say that it was the only way I knew how to present it to others because I did not fully understand what I had experienced of the working of the Spirit.
Now that I have been through so many experiences and have not only had the Spirit speak to me, but confirmations came that helped me understand what I understood was really true. I now understand there are more wonderful things to talk about. Yes the fellowship is wonderful, but the love and dealings of the Spirit is so much more. Yes the workers are wonderful, and my brothers and sisters are so wonderful. Do I depend on them for bread, or depend on them for encouragement when I go to meeting, NO. I understand that the only way I will find bread in the meeting, is if I bring bread. True bread is not eloquent words, but words from heaven.
Being filled with the love and grace from heaven is not just something that happens and we continue on living, but it changes us. I love the workers more, and my friends much, much more because I have seen the effect of that Spirit working in their lives also. Sometimes it brings tears to my eyes.
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Post by Alan C on Nov 26, 2007 0:46:52 GMT -5
The form was never an idol to me. I would say that it was the only way I knew how to present it to others because I did not fully understand what I had experienced of the working of the Spirit. Now that I have been through so many experiences and have not only had the Spirit speak to me, but confirmations came that helped me understand what I understood was really true. I now understand there are more wonderful things to talk about. Yes the fellowship is wonderful, but the love and dealings of the Spirit is so much more. Yes the workers are wonderful, and my brothers and sisters are so wonderful. Do I depend on them for bread, or depend on them for encouragement when I go to meeting, NO. I understand that the only way I will find bread in the meeting, is if I bring bread. True bread is not eloquent words, but words from heaven. Being filled with the love and grace from heaven is not just something that happens and we continue on living, but it changes us. I love the workers more, and my friends much, much more because I have seen the effect of that Spirit working in their lives also. Sometimes it brings tears to my eyes. I can give your last paragraph a hearty amen Joe. True life in Christ.
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delh
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Post by delh on Nov 26, 2007 12:47:23 GMT -5
Joe and Alan C. I also can understand where you are coming from. Having Jesus as our focus does not detract from our love of those in whom His work is being manifested, it only enhances our love for those in whom we see His work and our love for Jesus. It would be pretty superficial to point people to what we believe to be the Christ and ignore the product of His work in human lives.
If we believe that Jesus came to show us the way and that by His life and teachings we can learn to follow Him in that way, we will feel a kinship with those who are being led by Him in that way. This is simply the outcome of the Spirits work in the lives of His people. To as many as received Him to them gave He power to become the sons of God.
I for one am not ashamed to tell others that I love the ministry that Jesus is sending forth into the world because to me it is the manifestation of what He has established being worked out in the lives of men and woman willing to be led of His Spirit. They are willing to say not my will but thine be done. They are willing to respond to the gentle Shepard that said so often to His disciples---FOLLOW ME. It is an interesting study to look at the time lines of when Jesus sent forth the 12 and the 70. Of what he said to the rich young ruler concerning the ministry just days before His death. It was almost as if the subject became dearer and dearer to Him as His days on the earth were coming to a close.
Sure our message should be focused on Jesus the only one who can save us. We can talk about and hopefully manifest His work going on in our lives. And thankfully we can also point to others who are manifesting that work by their daily walk and words and actions.
Del
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Post by Emy on Nov 26, 2007 13:09:14 GMT -5
That was incredibly well-stated, Joe. I agree, as others have as well.
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fire
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Post by fire on Nov 30, 2007 19:18:32 GMT -5
I so wish I could say the same. In the past, I worshiped at the alter of form. It was how I defined my Spirituality. I judged people based on their adherence to what I believed was the true and only form. If a woman had shorter hair or wore earrings, well she was not serving God. If someone worshiped in a building and not a home, well then they weren't truly interested in being one of God's Children. I believed following the true form was proof that you were right with Christ, and if you were not following the true form, then that was proof you were a false Christian. I am so thankful now that God has removed these chains of legalism from my life and lead me into his warm embrace of grace where form is not the center of my life.
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fire
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Post by fire on Nov 30, 2007 19:21:03 GMT -5
Speaking of which - why are some of the commands Jesus gave in these lines now set aside, while others (going 2 by 2) are still adhered to by the ministry?
Are some of the commands no longer valid in our time?
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Post by nathanb on Nov 30, 2007 22:39:35 GMT -5
Speaking of which - why are some of the commands Jesus gave in these lines now set aside, while others (going 2 by 2) are still adhered to by the ministry? Are some of the commands no longer valid in our time? Hi, Fire...
I would like to answer two of your questions. Can you rewords your two questions more clearly in what you want to know. Thanks, in advance.
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geoff
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Post by geoff on Dec 1, 2007 9:46:02 GMT -5
I wonder if this is the seperator between those that leave and those that stay? Worshipping form?
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ram
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Post by ram on Dec 1, 2007 16:19:24 GMT -5
The reasons for people leaving the fellowship or just simply no longer being part of it are considerable and varied. Each individual has his or her own story, although many coincide on a fairly large number of details, just as occurs in any other part of the Christian church.
I do not think that every one who remains is "worshipping form," although for many, I have no doubt that recognising a certain "form" accompanies their worship.
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