Post by nathanb on Oct 17, 2007 22:43:40 GMT -5
1) Geoff wrote:
Comments on a few points made...
Emy said
This way is from the beginning" doesn't indicate an unbroken connection...
I agree Emy, it doesn't. And I too claim that phrase... on the basis that we are trying to do as Jesus taught. NOt always well, not always right, but trying.
But what Nathan is claiming is something different. He is claiming that there IS an unbroken connection all the way back. Thats largely the point of this thread. By making such a claim are we "misleading people"?
The Vaudois (French term for Waldenses) was itself a startup group of the middle ages (late 1100s) at the time of Pope Alexander 3rd. Nathan claims they still exist today, and that seems partially confirmed as "Today, the Waldensian Church is included in the Alliance of Reformed Churches of the Presbyterian Order" (ref: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians )
~~~Nathan: Geoff... I have read the Wiki website on Vaudois or Waldenses before and their article on Waldensians was itself a started up group around 1100s is NOT correct information at all.
I have found many different church historians DISAGREE! about Peter Waldo in 1100's WAS the founder of the Waldenses.
Here are some VERY interesting information can be found on my website which different historians proved Peter Waldo WAS NOT the founder of the Waldensians in 1170 A.D.
www.homestead.com/prosites-hobarker/noblelesson.html
According to my research many Vaudois followers during 15th-18th century LEFT the Vaudois belief, teachings and started their own Protestant churches, building churches.
~~~ Was Peter Waldo (1170) the Founder of Vaudois?
Raynonard, a notable linguist who examined certain Waldensian writings, was convinced of their antiquity. For instance, with regard to the "Noble Lesson," he wrote that "the date of the year 1100, which we read in the poem, deserves entire confidence."14 This is three-quarters of a century earlier that the Ministry article's date for the Waldenses.
Antiquity of Waldenses:
How does all this affect the question we began with, the length of time the Waldenses existed? Most of the older Protestant authorities ascribe ancient or even apostolic roots to the Waldenses.
10) Some assert that Peter Waldo (or Waldus) transferred his biblical concepts to the inhabitants of the Alpine area, but others maintain that the centuries before Waldo frequently testify of similar opposition by these inhabitants against the unbiblical presumptions of the papal church.
11) One nineteenth-century historian wrote, "It is plainly established nowadays that Peter Waldus or Valdus was not the founder of the Waldensian church, but owes his enlightened ideas to her."
12) Some ancient manuscripts may also testify to the antiquity of the Waldensian church. The Waldenses had a translation of the Scriptures which must be of a more ancient date than their preserved writings, which make many references to this translation.
13) Ellen White wrote that "the Waldenses were among the first of the peoples of Europe to obtain a translation of the Holy Scriptures" (The Great Controversy, p. 65). Raynonard, a notable linguist who examined certain Waldensian writings, was convinced of their antiquity. For instance, with regard to the "Noble Lesson," he wrote that "the date of the year 1100, which we read in the poem, deserves entire confidence."
14) This is three-quarters of a century earlier than the Ministry article's date for the Waldenses. It is fairly certain that the ancient writings of the Waldenses were copied many times and were adapted linguistically (and perhaps in other ways) to more recent standards because of manifold daily use.
15) But how old are the underlying documents, and how far back does the origin of the Waldenses go? Scholars differ on those questions. Nineteenth-century German scholars began to turn away from a very ancient, even apostolic, origin for the Waldenses, but a prominent scholar among them, Dieckhoff, noted that because of lack of further historical information, we are greatly dependent on suspicious Catholic sources.
16) He wrote in his foreword that in no way were his investigations brought to a satisfying conclusion on all points. 17) In his 1880 work Storia dei Valdesi avanti la Reforma, Emilio Comba, a Waldensian professor of historical theology and homiletics, was the first authority from within that group to reflect the new German investigations and conclusions regarding a non-ancient origin for the Waldenses.
18) It appears, however, that he was not entirely convinced, since six years later, in 1886, his booklet Who are the Waldenses? compared the influence of the Waldenses with the river Nile that owes its origin to a source still clouded in darkness. He noted that some writers trace the origin of the Waldensian church to the first persecutions of the Christians by the Romans, others to the time of Vigilantius or of Claudius, bishop of Turin, while still others see the Waldensian church first appearing in the twelfth century. And then he stated plainly that the only thing that can be clearly proved is that the origin of the Waldenses is very closely related to the study of the Scriptures.
19) In 1922 the Waldensian school was transferred from Florence to Rome with Emilio's son Ernesto Comba as professor of the theological faculty. Ernesto also wrote a book about the history of the Waldenses: Storia dei Valdesi, published in the Waldensian town of Torre Pellice in 1923. A Dutch copy was published in 1927. In the first chapter we are assured that at least as early as the fourth century there were flourishing churches in the Piedmont valleys. The chapter also indicated that we can accept Monastier's conviction that the Waldensian church is the connecting link between the ancient Christian churches and the later evangelical churches.
20) Comba presented arguments to demonstrate that the name Waldenses derives from valley ("vallis densa" valdensis) or from "vaudès," indicating also sorcery and heresy, and that they already existed before the time of Peter Waldo. Comba cited Atto, bishop of Vercelli, who in his letters complained of apostates in that mountainous area. And in the chronicle of the monastery of St. Trudon in Belgium, the abbot Rodolf on his way to Rome indicated the Alps as a district with deep-rooted heresy. This was about 50 years before Waldo.
Eberhard de Béthune mentioned the name Waldenses more than a decade before Peter Waldo, (1170) while the abbot Bernard de Foncald wrote about heretics named "Valdensis" who were condemned during the pontificate of pope Lucius II (1144), nearly three decades before Peter Waldo.
21) Both Eberhard and Bernard said that their name is derived from "vallis densa," a dreary, deep valley. 22) Further, a letter written by the bishop of Liège to pope Lucius II mentions heretics as "old enemies" who scattered themselves all over France with their own church polity and discipline.
23) This proves clearly that a church organization, apart from Rome, was in existence before the year 1144. Well before the time of Waldo, in the early twelfth century, a report was written in the chronicle of the abbey of Corbie, telling about the activities of a "peculiar and ancient kind of people" inhabiting the Alps, who learned the Bible by heart and often wandered about as merchants. They despised the ceremonies and customs of the church and showed no regard for images and relics.
24) Abbot Conrad of Lichtenau wrote in the year 1212 that the" Poor Men of Leonists" or Valdenses, "when viewed as a sect and when considered in reference to their ultimate theological origin, had already sprung up and had long existed in Italy, previous to their becoming celebrated in France under the auspices and tutelage of the piedmontese merchant Peter."
25) Allix also held "that Peter Waldo was not the founder of the churches of the valleys, which were in being long before him." He pointed out clearly and decidedly, "Wherefore, that I may once for all clear this matter, I say, first, that it is absolutely false, that these churches were ever founded by Peter Waldo."
26) Some recent publications still uphold similar views. Mia S. H. van Oostveen wrote, "The opinion that the name "Waldens'' would have its origin since [Waldo] and would mean "follower of Peter Waldo" is incorrect."
27) Interestingly, in the canons of the councils and in other official documents we do not find the followers of Waldo named as Waldenses but as "poor men of Lyon, France."
28) Another source remarks: "Peter Waldus or Waldo, who was but a follower of the Waldenses, first became known after the persecution of Lyon, France in the year 1181," while "shortly afterwards the history of the Waldenses is confined mainly to the valleys of Piedmont in Switzerland."
29) Waldo and his followers were at first also called "Leonists" (from "Lyon, France") and when persecuted they "fled into Piedmont, incorporating themselves with the Vaudois."
Why does the Apostles' Creed refer to the Holy Catholic Church?
The question is often asked, "why did the early church fathers refer to the Church as "Catholic" particular, the Apostle's Creed which is truly a symbol of faith and is dated to about a century after the New Testament was completed." It is important to understand that the term "Catholic Church" simply refers to the "Universal Church of believers." It is NO Way referring only to the Roman Catholicism.
To fully understand this, we need to look at the original languages. For example, the word "Creed" is for Latin [Credo] meaning I believe, thus the Apostle's Creed was a statement of Christians beliefs. Some people have the mistaken idea that the word "Catholic" belongs to the Roman Church. But, simply because Rome claims to be Catholic Church, doesn't make it so. In truth, the word "Catholic" is simply a form of the Greek word "[Katholikos]" which means, "of the whole." Taken from two root words [kata] meaning pertaining to, or about, and the word [kolos] meaning the whole..,i.e., it means the whole of the Universal Church.
Before those grounded in sound, Biblical Theology broke away from the "Dominant" church in Rome in Protest (thus they were called Protestants) of that church slipping into "Idolatry and Unscriptural" practices, they were "ONE whole" (Universal) church. Rome can claim ownership of the word, but that is mere sematics. For they are not "Holy or Catholic", nor in a real sense, the Church. In a sense, they are a church, but they have long ago left, being under authority of God.
The name "Catholic", in our day, has come to denote a denomination rather that's true meaning. But, in the early Church, it was the title denoting its "Universal" nature, and had nothing to do with a denomination in Rome. Denominations are invention of man. There is only the "Universal" Church, not a Roman Church, and Protestant Churches, but "One" holy Universal Church.
In the big picture, thus hasn't really changed today. The true Church of God is the "Universal Church" no matter what label man puts on it by denomination edict. There is "One" Holy Church fulfilling its commission to go to the end of the earth with the gospel.
( written by Tony W.)
The Friends of God in the 12th Century:
www.ccel.org/b/bevan/friends/friend.htm
The "Friends of God," who stood in immediate connection with the Waldensian "Brethren" say that about the year 320 A.D. after Christ, the Church in Rome had fallen into worldliness and was "corrupted" through EVIL teaching. For the Roman Emperor Constantine, instead persecuting the Christians, had begun to honor them, and to give them worldly "power" and "riches", and not by the Word of the Lord. And, because their fathers had "Held Fast" to the ancient teachings of the apostles of the Lord, they had been Persecuted and Killed by the Roman Church.
And, many of them had fled to the mountain of "Italy" and "Switzerland" and "France" and some other countries, and God had kept them as the apple of His eye, and they could "NEVER" be destroyed, though they had suffered hardship, and persecution, and death, from generation to generation. And, so as time went on, they were to be found in many races, and in many lands, and wherever they went, they brought the Word of God, as they believe the apostles "Taught it."
The Pilgrim Church by E.H. Broadbent
Chapter V Page 81-101
The Vaudois are, in fact ,descended from those refugees from Italy, who after apostle Paul had preached the Gospel, abandoned their beautiful country and "FLED" like the woman mentioned in Apocalypse (Revelation chapter 12) to these wild mountains (Swiss Alps), where they have, to this day, handed down the Gospel from father to son, in the same purity and simplicity as was preached by Paul.
Had you asked their name, they would have replied that they were Christians. They owned no name besides. But ,amongst themselves, they were used to speak to one another as "Brethen." They were, therefore, called in various countries "The Apostolic Brethen," "The Swiss Brethen" or "Italians Brethen," or "The Brethen of Lombardy."
In the Alpine valleys of Piedmont there had been, for centuries, (A.D 70-1800) congregation of believers, calling themselves brethen, who came later to be widely known as Waldenses or Vaudois, though they did not, themselves, accept the name. They traced their ORIGIN in those parts back to the apostolic times. Like many of the so-called Cathar, Paulicans, and other churches, these were "NOT" reformed "NEVER" having degenerated from the New Testament pattern, as had the Roman, Greek Orthodox, and some others, but having always maintained, in varying degree, the Apostolic tradition.
From the time of Emperor Constanstine (3rd century), there had been a continuation to be a succession of those who "Preached" the Gospel and founded churches, uninfluenced by the relations between Church and State existing at the time.
The Brethen from Bosnia and other Balkan countries making their way through Italy, came into the South of France, finding everywhere, those who shared their faith. The teaching they brought with them found ready acceptance. The Roman clergy called them Bulgarians, Cathars, Patarenes, and other names, and following the habit of centuries in Asia Minor and in the Balkan countries affirmed that they were Manichaeans.
Pierre de Brueys: a prominent, able and deligent preacher, who for 20 years, braving all dangers, traveled throughout Dauphiny, Provence, Languedoc, and Gascony, drawing multitudes from the "Superstition" in which they had been brought up, back to the teachings of scripture, until he was burned at St. Gilles
He showed from Scripture that "NONE" should be baptized until they had attained to the full use of their reason; that it is "Useless" to BUILD Churches, as God accepts sincere worship whenever offered; that crucifixes should "NOT" be venerated, but rather looked upon with horror, as representing the instrument on which our Lord suffered;
That the Bread and Wine are "NOT" changed into the body and blood of Christ, but are symbols commemorative of His death; and that the prayers and good works of the living can not benefit the dead.
~~~ Was Peter Waldo in 1170 A.D. the Vaudois/ Waldenses Founder? The answer is "NO".
Peter Allix: Some remarks upon the Eccesiastic History of the Ancient Church of Piedmont pp. 176-182. The Waldenses had stiffly opposed the abuses of the Roman Church, and they held their doctrine from father to son, ever SINCE the year A.D. 120, as they had heard and received it from their elders and ancestors.
These believers of the valleys could "NOT" be so called from Peter Waldo of Lyons, France because he did "NOT" flourish at the soonest till the year 1170, according to Roger Hovenden, whereas the people of the valleys of Lucerne and Angrogne had the name of Wallenses from the beginning of the 12th century. I have already made it appear, that they separated themselves from the Church in Rome long before, and that the name Wallenses or Vaudois, was given to them from the place of their abode, which the habitants called les Vaux de Lucerne et Angrogne, that is to say, the Valley of Lucerne Angrogne, from which came the Latin name Valenses, which was afterwards changed to Valdenses, when the design was laid to make men believe Peter (Waldo) Valdo was their founder.
It has often been said that a man Peter Waldo, who lived in Lyons, France about the year 1170, was really the founder of this "sect that was everywhere spoken against." But, history proves that such could "NOT" be the case, as tradition of the Vaudois existence from the days of the apostles can be traced back and in the 13th century, they are not only spoken of as having been known for a long while back, but as being numerous all over Western Europe.
For instance, in 1150 the Vaudoios were heard in Cologne, 1177 at Frankfurt, Nuremberg, and other Germans towns; large meetings were held by them at Metz in 1180; in Spain they were persecuted, in 1192 by Alfonso or Aragon, who mentions in his edict against them that he follows the example of his forefathers in forbidding their preaching. In 1170 they were forbidden to preach at Lyons, France by the Pope Lucius III, who edict against them.
They abounded at this time in Piedmont, and in Dauphine; all over the Southern of France, at Naples in Sicily, and Southern Italy---in the Netherlands, Flanders, and Brabant --- in Northern France and in England.
Who was Peter Waldo?
Peter Waldo of Lyons, France, a sucessful merchant and banker, was aroused to see his need of salvation by the sudden death of one of the guests at a feast he had given. A Vaudois theologian directed Peter Waldo to the Lord's words in (Matthew 19:21) "If thou be Perfect, go and "sell" that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shall have treasure in Heaven, and come and follow me."
Peter Waldo, therefore, made over his lands, property to his wife, SOLD the remainder, and distributed it among the poor. For a time, he devoted himself to the study of the Scriptures and then (1180) gave himself to traveling and preaching taking as the Lord's words, "He sent His disciples "Two and Two." Therefore, Jesus said unto them: "Pray, ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that He would send forth laborers into His harvest."
Companions joined Peter Waldo, traveling and preaching in this way, came to be known as the "Poor men of Lyons" Their appeal for recognition (1179) to the third Lateran Council, under the Pope Alexander III, had already ben scornfully refused. They were driven out of Lyons, France by Imperial edict and (1184) excommunicated. Scattered over the surrounding countries, their preaching proved very effectual and "Poor men of Lyons" became one of the many names attached to those who follow Christ and His teaching.
The relations of Peter Waldo with the Waldenses were so intimate that MANY! call him the "Founder" of a sect of that name, though others derive the name from the Alpine valleys, Vallenses, in which so many of those believers lived.
It is true that Peter Waldo was highly esteemed among them, but "NOT" possible that he should have been their founder, since the found their faith and practice on the scriptures and were followers of those who from the earliest times had done the same. For outsiders to give them the name of a man "prominent" among them was only to follow the usual habit of their "opponents" who did not like to admit their right to call themselves, as they did, "Christians" or "Brethen."
Comments on a few points made...
Emy said
This way is from the beginning" doesn't indicate an unbroken connection...
I agree Emy, it doesn't. And I too claim that phrase... on the basis that we are trying to do as Jesus taught. NOt always well, not always right, but trying.
But what Nathan is claiming is something different. He is claiming that there IS an unbroken connection all the way back. Thats largely the point of this thread. By making such a claim are we "misleading people"?
The Vaudois (French term for Waldenses) was itself a startup group of the middle ages (late 1100s) at the time of Pope Alexander 3rd. Nathan claims they still exist today, and that seems partially confirmed as "Today, the Waldensian Church is included in the Alliance of Reformed Churches of the Presbyterian Order" (ref: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians )
~~~Nathan: Geoff... I have read the Wiki website on Vaudois or Waldenses before and their article on Waldensians was itself a started up group around 1100s is NOT correct information at all.
I have found many different church historians DISAGREE! about Peter Waldo in 1100's WAS the founder of the Waldenses.
Here are some VERY interesting information can be found on my website which different historians proved Peter Waldo WAS NOT the founder of the Waldensians in 1170 A.D.
www.homestead.com/prosites-hobarker/noblelesson.html
According to my research many Vaudois followers during 15th-18th century LEFT the Vaudois belief, teachings and started their own Protestant churches, building churches.
~~~ Was Peter Waldo (1170) the Founder of Vaudois?
Raynonard, a notable linguist who examined certain Waldensian writings, was convinced of their antiquity. For instance, with regard to the "Noble Lesson," he wrote that "the date of the year 1100, which we read in the poem, deserves entire confidence."14 This is three-quarters of a century earlier that the Ministry article's date for the Waldenses.
Antiquity of Waldenses:
How does all this affect the question we began with, the length of time the Waldenses existed? Most of the older Protestant authorities ascribe ancient or even apostolic roots to the Waldenses.
10) Some assert that Peter Waldo (or Waldus) transferred his biblical concepts to the inhabitants of the Alpine area, but others maintain that the centuries before Waldo frequently testify of similar opposition by these inhabitants against the unbiblical presumptions of the papal church.
11) One nineteenth-century historian wrote, "It is plainly established nowadays that Peter Waldus or Valdus was not the founder of the Waldensian church, but owes his enlightened ideas to her."
12) Some ancient manuscripts may also testify to the antiquity of the Waldensian church. The Waldenses had a translation of the Scriptures which must be of a more ancient date than their preserved writings, which make many references to this translation.
13) Ellen White wrote that "the Waldenses were among the first of the peoples of Europe to obtain a translation of the Holy Scriptures" (The Great Controversy, p. 65). Raynonard, a notable linguist who examined certain Waldensian writings, was convinced of their antiquity. For instance, with regard to the "Noble Lesson," he wrote that "the date of the year 1100, which we read in the poem, deserves entire confidence."
14) This is three-quarters of a century earlier than the Ministry article's date for the Waldenses. It is fairly certain that the ancient writings of the Waldenses were copied many times and were adapted linguistically (and perhaps in other ways) to more recent standards because of manifold daily use.
15) But how old are the underlying documents, and how far back does the origin of the Waldenses go? Scholars differ on those questions. Nineteenth-century German scholars began to turn away from a very ancient, even apostolic, origin for the Waldenses, but a prominent scholar among them, Dieckhoff, noted that because of lack of further historical information, we are greatly dependent on suspicious Catholic sources.
16) He wrote in his foreword that in no way were his investigations brought to a satisfying conclusion on all points. 17) In his 1880 work Storia dei Valdesi avanti la Reforma, Emilio Comba, a Waldensian professor of historical theology and homiletics, was the first authority from within that group to reflect the new German investigations and conclusions regarding a non-ancient origin for the Waldenses.
18) It appears, however, that he was not entirely convinced, since six years later, in 1886, his booklet Who are the Waldenses? compared the influence of the Waldenses with the river Nile that owes its origin to a source still clouded in darkness. He noted that some writers trace the origin of the Waldensian church to the first persecutions of the Christians by the Romans, others to the time of Vigilantius or of Claudius, bishop of Turin, while still others see the Waldensian church first appearing in the twelfth century. And then he stated plainly that the only thing that can be clearly proved is that the origin of the Waldenses is very closely related to the study of the Scriptures.
19) In 1922 the Waldensian school was transferred from Florence to Rome with Emilio's son Ernesto Comba as professor of the theological faculty. Ernesto also wrote a book about the history of the Waldenses: Storia dei Valdesi, published in the Waldensian town of Torre Pellice in 1923. A Dutch copy was published in 1927. In the first chapter we are assured that at least as early as the fourth century there were flourishing churches in the Piedmont valleys. The chapter also indicated that we can accept Monastier's conviction that the Waldensian church is the connecting link between the ancient Christian churches and the later evangelical churches.
20) Comba presented arguments to demonstrate that the name Waldenses derives from valley ("vallis densa" valdensis) or from "vaudès," indicating also sorcery and heresy, and that they already existed before the time of Peter Waldo. Comba cited Atto, bishop of Vercelli, who in his letters complained of apostates in that mountainous area. And in the chronicle of the monastery of St. Trudon in Belgium, the abbot Rodolf on his way to Rome indicated the Alps as a district with deep-rooted heresy. This was about 50 years before Waldo.
Eberhard de Béthune mentioned the name Waldenses more than a decade before Peter Waldo, (1170) while the abbot Bernard de Foncald wrote about heretics named "Valdensis" who were condemned during the pontificate of pope Lucius II (1144), nearly three decades before Peter Waldo.
21) Both Eberhard and Bernard said that their name is derived from "vallis densa," a dreary, deep valley. 22) Further, a letter written by the bishop of Liège to pope Lucius II mentions heretics as "old enemies" who scattered themselves all over France with their own church polity and discipline.
23) This proves clearly that a church organization, apart from Rome, was in existence before the year 1144. Well before the time of Waldo, in the early twelfth century, a report was written in the chronicle of the abbey of Corbie, telling about the activities of a "peculiar and ancient kind of people" inhabiting the Alps, who learned the Bible by heart and often wandered about as merchants. They despised the ceremonies and customs of the church and showed no regard for images and relics.
24) Abbot Conrad of Lichtenau wrote in the year 1212 that the" Poor Men of Leonists" or Valdenses, "when viewed as a sect and when considered in reference to their ultimate theological origin, had already sprung up and had long existed in Italy, previous to their becoming celebrated in France under the auspices and tutelage of the piedmontese merchant Peter."
25) Allix also held "that Peter Waldo was not the founder of the churches of the valleys, which were in being long before him." He pointed out clearly and decidedly, "Wherefore, that I may once for all clear this matter, I say, first, that it is absolutely false, that these churches were ever founded by Peter Waldo."
26) Some recent publications still uphold similar views. Mia S. H. van Oostveen wrote, "The opinion that the name "Waldens'' would have its origin since [Waldo] and would mean "follower of Peter Waldo" is incorrect."
27) Interestingly, in the canons of the councils and in other official documents we do not find the followers of Waldo named as Waldenses but as "poor men of Lyon, France."
28) Another source remarks: "Peter Waldus or Waldo, who was but a follower of the Waldenses, first became known after the persecution of Lyon, France in the year 1181," while "shortly afterwards the history of the Waldenses is confined mainly to the valleys of Piedmont in Switzerland."
29) Waldo and his followers were at first also called "Leonists" (from "Lyon, France") and when persecuted they "fled into Piedmont, incorporating themselves with the Vaudois."
Why does the Apostles' Creed refer to the Holy Catholic Church?
The question is often asked, "why did the early church fathers refer to the Church as "Catholic" particular, the Apostle's Creed which is truly a symbol of faith and is dated to about a century after the New Testament was completed." It is important to understand that the term "Catholic Church" simply refers to the "Universal Church of believers." It is NO Way referring only to the Roman Catholicism.
To fully understand this, we need to look at the original languages. For example, the word "Creed" is for Latin [Credo] meaning I believe, thus the Apostle's Creed was a statement of Christians beliefs. Some people have the mistaken idea that the word "Catholic" belongs to the Roman Church. But, simply because Rome claims to be Catholic Church, doesn't make it so. In truth, the word "Catholic" is simply a form of the Greek word "[Katholikos]" which means, "of the whole." Taken from two root words [kata] meaning pertaining to, or about, and the word [kolos] meaning the whole..,i.e., it means the whole of the Universal Church.
Before those grounded in sound, Biblical Theology broke away from the "Dominant" church in Rome in Protest (thus they were called Protestants) of that church slipping into "Idolatry and Unscriptural" practices, they were "ONE whole" (Universal) church. Rome can claim ownership of the word, but that is mere sematics. For they are not "Holy or Catholic", nor in a real sense, the Church. In a sense, they are a church, but they have long ago left, being under authority of God.
The name "Catholic", in our day, has come to denote a denomination rather that's true meaning. But, in the early Church, it was the title denoting its "Universal" nature, and had nothing to do with a denomination in Rome. Denominations are invention of man. There is only the "Universal" Church, not a Roman Church, and Protestant Churches, but "One" holy Universal Church.
In the big picture, thus hasn't really changed today. The true Church of God is the "Universal Church" no matter what label man puts on it by denomination edict. There is "One" Holy Church fulfilling its commission to go to the end of the earth with the gospel.
( written by Tony W.)
The Friends of God in the 12th Century:
www.ccel.org/b/bevan/friends/friend.htm
The "Friends of God," who stood in immediate connection with the Waldensian "Brethren" say that about the year 320 A.D. after Christ, the Church in Rome had fallen into worldliness and was "corrupted" through EVIL teaching. For the Roman Emperor Constantine, instead persecuting the Christians, had begun to honor them, and to give them worldly "power" and "riches", and not by the Word of the Lord. And, because their fathers had "Held Fast" to the ancient teachings of the apostles of the Lord, they had been Persecuted and Killed by the Roman Church.
And, many of them had fled to the mountain of "Italy" and "Switzerland" and "France" and some other countries, and God had kept them as the apple of His eye, and they could "NEVER" be destroyed, though they had suffered hardship, and persecution, and death, from generation to generation. And, so as time went on, they were to be found in many races, and in many lands, and wherever they went, they brought the Word of God, as they believe the apostles "Taught it."
The Pilgrim Church by E.H. Broadbent
Chapter V Page 81-101
The Vaudois are, in fact ,descended from those refugees from Italy, who after apostle Paul had preached the Gospel, abandoned their beautiful country and "FLED" like the woman mentioned in Apocalypse (Revelation chapter 12) to these wild mountains (Swiss Alps), where they have, to this day, handed down the Gospel from father to son, in the same purity and simplicity as was preached by Paul.
Had you asked their name, they would have replied that they were Christians. They owned no name besides. But ,amongst themselves, they were used to speak to one another as "Brethen." They were, therefore, called in various countries "The Apostolic Brethen," "The Swiss Brethen" or "Italians Brethen," or "The Brethen of Lombardy."
In the Alpine valleys of Piedmont there had been, for centuries, (A.D 70-1800) congregation of believers, calling themselves brethen, who came later to be widely known as Waldenses or Vaudois, though they did not, themselves, accept the name. They traced their ORIGIN in those parts back to the apostolic times. Like many of the so-called Cathar, Paulicans, and other churches, these were "NOT" reformed "NEVER" having degenerated from the New Testament pattern, as had the Roman, Greek Orthodox, and some others, but having always maintained, in varying degree, the Apostolic tradition.
From the time of Emperor Constanstine (3rd century), there had been a continuation to be a succession of those who "Preached" the Gospel and founded churches, uninfluenced by the relations between Church and State existing at the time.
The Brethen from Bosnia and other Balkan countries making their way through Italy, came into the South of France, finding everywhere, those who shared their faith. The teaching they brought with them found ready acceptance. The Roman clergy called them Bulgarians, Cathars, Patarenes, and other names, and following the habit of centuries in Asia Minor and in the Balkan countries affirmed that they were Manichaeans.
Pierre de Brueys: a prominent, able and deligent preacher, who for 20 years, braving all dangers, traveled throughout Dauphiny, Provence, Languedoc, and Gascony, drawing multitudes from the "Superstition" in which they had been brought up, back to the teachings of scripture, until he was burned at St. Gilles
He showed from Scripture that "NONE" should be baptized until they had attained to the full use of their reason; that it is "Useless" to BUILD Churches, as God accepts sincere worship whenever offered; that crucifixes should "NOT" be venerated, but rather looked upon with horror, as representing the instrument on which our Lord suffered;
That the Bread and Wine are "NOT" changed into the body and blood of Christ, but are symbols commemorative of His death; and that the prayers and good works of the living can not benefit the dead.
~~~ Was Peter Waldo in 1170 A.D. the Vaudois/ Waldenses Founder? The answer is "NO".
Peter Allix: Some remarks upon the Eccesiastic History of the Ancient Church of Piedmont pp. 176-182. The Waldenses had stiffly opposed the abuses of the Roman Church, and they held their doctrine from father to son, ever SINCE the year A.D. 120, as they had heard and received it from their elders and ancestors.
These believers of the valleys could "NOT" be so called from Peter Waldo of Lyons, France because he did "NOT" flourish at the soonest till the year 1170, according to Roger Hovenden, whereas the people of the valleys of Lucerne and Angrogne had the name of Wallenses from the beginning of the 12th century. I have already made it appear, that they separated themselves from the Church in Rome long before, and that the name Wallenses or Vaudois, was given to them from the place of their abode, which the habitants called les Vaux de Lucerne et Angrogne, that is to say, the Valley of Lucerne Angrogne, from which came the Latin name Valenses, which was afterwards changed to Valdenses, when the design was laid to make men believe Peter (Waldo) Valdo was their founder.
It has often been said that a man Peter Waldo, who lived in Lyons, France about the year 1170, was really the founder of this "sect that was everywhere spoken against." But, history proves that such could "NOT" be the case, as tradition of the Vaudois existence from the days of the apostles can be traced back and in the 13th century, they are not only spoken of as having been known for a long while back, but as being numerous all over Western Europe.
For instance, in 1150 the Vaudoios were heard in Cologne, 1177 at Frankfurt, Nuremberg, and other Germans towns; large meetings were held by them at Metz in 1180; in Spain they were persecuted, in 1192 by Alfonso or Aragon, who mentions in his edict against them that he follows the example of his forefathers in forbidding their preaching. In 1170 they were forbidden to preach at Lyons, France by the Pope Lucius III, who edict against them.
They abounded at this time in Piedmont, and in Dauphine; all over the Southern of France, at Naples in Sicily, and Southern Italy---in the Netherlands, Flanders, and Brabant --- in Northern France and in England.
Who was Peter Waldo?
Peter Waldo of Lyons, France, a sucessful merchant and banker, was aroused to see his need of salvation by the sudden death of one of the guests at a feast he had given. A Vaudois theologian directed Peter Waldo to the Lord's words in (Matthew 19:21) "If thou be Perfect, go and "sell" that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shall have treasure in Heaven, and come and follow me."
Peter Waldo, therefore, made over his lands, property to his wife, SOLD the remainder, and distributed it among the poor. For a time, he devoted himself to the study of the Scriptures and then (1180) gave himself to traveling and preaching taking as the Lord's words, "He sent His disciples "Two and Two." Therefore, Jesus said unto them: "Pray, ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that He would send forth laborers into His harvest."
Companions joined Peter Waldo, traveling and preaching in this way, came to be known as the "Poor men of Lyons" Their appeal for recognition (1179) to the third Lateran Council, under the Pope Alexander III, had already ben scornfully refused. They were driven out of Lyons, France by Imperial edict and (1184) excommunicated. Scattered over the surrounding countries, their preaching proved very effectual and "Poor men of Lyons" became one of the many names attached to those who follow Christ and His teaching.
The relations of Peter Waldo with the Waldenses were so intimate that MANY! call him the "Founder" of a sect of that name, though others derive the name from the Alpine valleys, Vallenses, in which so many of those believers lived.
It is true that Peter Waldo was highly esteemed among them, but "NOT" possible that he should have been their founder, since the found their faith and practice on the scriptures and were followers of those who from the earliest times had done the same. For outsiders to give them the name of a man "prominent" among them was only to follow the usual habit of their "opponents" who did not like to admit their right to call themselves, as they did, "Christians" or "Brethen."