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Post by nathanb on Oct 15, 2007 15:47:19 GMT -5
1) Geoff wrote: It leaves more questions unanswered than it answers. If we follow this line of the story then, we have Wm Irvine hearing the gospel from his sister. I wonder which sister that was, he had several. (I used to live near where one of his sisters lived with her husband and family.) According to Robert Darling (who is mentioned on the 1905 workers list) WI heard the gospel from his sister who heard it from others, but the others are unidentified. This account implies that there were very few friends at this time. Its interestig that the account acknowledged a "revival of the faith" - acknowledges that there was a gap. Of course we don't know the size of that gap, could have been 1700 years or so. But a gap implies a new beginning. That happened in Ireland in the 1880s, and has been recorded as such. Thats what I was first taught back in the 70s. This email you received of this account does nothing to hold up the theory that there were workers of friends in the years prior to say 1880. So we're no further ahead. No workers, friends etc identifiable prior to 1880 or so. ~~~ Nathan: Historical documents facts on my website and Robert Darling's personal experience indicate there has always been people who believe and practice in the apostolic 2x2 Itinerant ministry and believers through down the ages since the time of Jesus, the early apostles and PRIOR! to the time of William Irivine. You can't NOT deny this church history. Believe or NOT it is up to you. 2) Geoff wrote: The manner of our fellowship starting (exactly who, exactly how) might be possibly disputed, but the timing cannot. There were none connected to us prior to 1880. There might have been some with similar practices and similar doctrine, but not actually connected. ~~~ Nathan: I will let the readers make up their own minds about the connection. 3) Geoff wrote: I personally don't think any of this matters in terms of salvation, in terms of relationship with the Lord. Our salvation is not of a system, not of men, not of a fellowship, its in Jesus. Our fellowship is not with the dead, but with the living. We don't meet with historical characters on Sunday morning, but with living people. ~~~ Nathan: Yes, our Salvation is based on accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. But AFTER the apostles and believers in the New Testament became Christians they met and have fellowship with one another like minded to worship God in spirit and in Truth.4) Geoff wrote: But to some, the beginnings have this importance: They were told that our fellowship had existed continuously from biblical days until now, and thats simply not true. (and this note of what Robert Darling said doesn't change that). ~~~ Nathan: Church documents have proven to us this to be TRUE... There has been 2x2 Itinerant apostolic ministry and fellowship have existed continously from Jesus and apostles days until now. It doesn't matter if we believe it or not history will remain the same.
Do you have any Bible scripture/s Jesus or the apostle speak about the GAP theory? of the Church which Jesus and the apostles started? I would like to read it.
According Jesus words, teachings... there is NO GAP theory! in the Old Testament or in the New Testament. This belief and teachings are Unscriptures and false according to the Bible.5) Geoff wrote: There are many factors that could prove otherwise, but they don't. Such things as: * a hymn book prior to the 1914 one (Even pre 1880) * the name of even ONE worker prior to 1880 * the name of a convention ground proven to have had a convention since before 1880 * the name of one professing person prior to 1880 No-one has ever produced such a fact. Or do you have one? ~~~ Nathan: I have read these above statement or questions from the ex-2x2 website in the past... I can't answer and have no answer because I wasn't born or profess at this period and time 1800-1914.
However, this I know for a FACT! which people CAN'T deny.... It is NOT Misleading people when we say! there has always been men and women whom God raised up that have existed and continously practicing Jesus and the apostles' 2x2 Itinerant ministry and fellowship through down the ages! to our days.
If you don't mind Geoff... Can show me where Jesus or any of the apostles teachings teach about the "GAP theory" of Christ's TRUE church and the Itinerant ministry.
I have many scriptures, parables in the Bible and teachings of Jesus and the early apostles mention of the Continous existence Christ's TRUE church and Itinerant ministry through down the ages to the time of His return.
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Post by nathanb on Oct 15, 2007 21:56:12 GMT -5
Jesus said, " Thou art Peter upon this Rock! I will build MY Church! and the gates of Hell shall NOT prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18) And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be PREACHED! in ALL the world for a witness unto ALL nations; and then shall the end Come. (Matthew 24:14)
Before Jesus ascended back to heaven he said to his disciples and apostles, "But ye shall receive power after the Holy Spirit comes upon you (Acts 2) and ye shall be MY witnessess unto me both in Jerusalem, in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto uttermost of part of the earth." (Acts 1:8)
~~ Gamelio, a Pharisee said to Jews concerning those who opposed to the work of the apostles in (Acts 5:33-42) "Now, I say unto you, Refrain from these men (apostles) and let them ALONE! for if this work be of men, it will come to nought/fail: but if it be of God, ye Can NOT overthrow it, lest ye happly ye found even to fight against God."
~~~~ Earth changes, but God and His word STAND sure! In (Malachi 3:6) I the LORD, I do NOT change."
For us as followers of Jesus Christ, this puts more faith in our spiritual backbone. We gain confidence in the God's assurance of the fulfilledment of EVERY divine promise. If God were easily moved by every whim or notion, our eternal destiny would be in constant jeopardy. But because He is the "Unchanging God" we can Trust in His words and promises completely.
The "GAP" theory! is unbiblical, false teaching, because Jesus own words, the apostles teachings, and historical documents have proven there is NO such thing as "Gap" theory in the New Testament.Romans 11:1-5; 25,26 Paul wrote: I ask then, "Has God cast away his people? God forbid which he foreknew. Don't you know the scripture said about Elijah? how he appealed to God against Israel, saying "Lord they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am LEFT alone! and they SEEK my life. But what was God's answer to him? " I have RESERVED! for myself 7,000 men who have NOT bowed their knees to the image of Baal" (pagans god). Paul wrote: Even so then at this present time also there is a REMNANT! according to the election of grace. Verse 25,26,30: For I would NOT, brethern, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye (Gentiles) should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL! the fullness (numbers) of the Gentiles has come in (the kingdom). And so ALL Israel shall be SAVED as it is written, there shall come out of Zion the Deliever (Jesus) that shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. For as ye (Gentiles) in time past have NOT believed God yet have now obtained mercy through their UNBELIEF! ~~~ In the book of Revelation around 95 A.D. God gave John the apostle glimpses about the REMNANT of Jesus' Church, Itinerant ministry, and fellowship have survived through down the ages and to the time of His Son returns. Revelation 6:9-11 When he had opened the 5th sealed, I (John the apostle) saw the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held... and whit robes were given to them... it was said unto them, that they should REST! yet for a little season until their fellow servants also and their BRETHREN! that should be KILLED as they were, should be fulfilled. Revelation 7: 9, 13-14 After this I (John apostle) beheld, and lo, a GREAT multitude which no man could COUNT! of ALL nations, tribes, and people, and languages, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands. One of the elders said unto me, "Who are they? who are arrayed in white robes? and where did they come from? And I (John) unto the elder, "Sir, thou knowest. And he said unto me, These are they who came out of GREAT tribulation, and have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb... they shall hunger no more, neither thrist any more... and God shall wipe away their tears. Revelation 14:1-20And I (John) saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the EVERLASTING! Gospel PREACH unto them that dwell on the earth, and to EVERY nation, languages, and people.... Here is the patience of the saints: Here are they that OBEY the commandments of God, and the Faith of Jesus... Blessed are the dead who died in the Lord from now on: they may REST from their labors; and their works do follow them. The harvest is ripe and ready to be harvested: Verse 15-18 With a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, "Trust thy sickle, and REAP! for the harvest of the earth is RIPE." And he that sat on the cloud thrust his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. In (Matthew 24: 29-31) Jesus gave his disciples a glimpse about his coming as the King of kings... Immediately after the tribulation of these days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall NOT give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear! the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and shall ALL the nations of the earth will mourn, and they shall SEE! the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and with great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHER! his ELECT from the 4 winds, from one end of heaven to the other. ~~ Revelation chapter 11: Is about the New Testament ministry. ~~ Revelation chapter 12: Is about the True Church of Christ. ~~ Revelation chapter 14: The harvest of the True Chuch. Revelation 12:12-14 The REMNANT! of the True Church/Bride of Christ. And the Dragon (Satan) having great Wrath! because he knows that he has a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast out unto the earth, he "Persecuted" the Woman (True Church) which brought forth the child (Jesus).
And the woman (true Church) were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness! (Alps, Switzerland and other countries around the globe) into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent... And the dragon was angry with the Woman! and went to make WAR! with the REMNANT! of her seed, who KEEP the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.~~ Revelation chapter 13: The beasts, the false prophets, the enemies of God's people. ~~ Revelation chapter 17,18: About the false Church of Christ. ~~~ Revelation 16: Plagues/terrible punishment shall fall on those who belong to the false bride or church. In (Revelation 18: 4-6) So God made a way of Escapse from the false Bride! by calling His people to come out and join His true Church and Fellowship "Come out of her MY PEOPLE! that ye be NOT partakers of her sins, and that ye receive NOT of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven and God has remember her iniquities. Reward her (Revelation 16) even as she rewarded you, and double (her punishment) according to her works. ~~~ Revelation 18:20-24 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles, and prophets; for God has avenged you on her... And in her (false bride of Christ) was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. Revelation 19:1-2 Salvation and glory, and honor, and power unot the Lord our God. For true and righteous are His judgment; for He has JUDGED the great W.H.O.R.E. (false bride) who did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and has avenged the boold of His servants at her hands. ~~~~ Sadly to say according to history the Catholic Church leaders in Rome tourtured, killed over 100,000, 000 millions lives of the Vaudois, Waldenese, Poor men Lyons, Cathars, Albigenses and those who believe like them, and many others who did NOT agree with the Church pagans ritual, worship, teachings, belief from the 4th-19th century.
You either converted to Catholism or die by burning ALIVE at stakes, torturing, and hanging. They used all kinds of torturing methods, devices to convert or change their loyalty to the Catholic faith/church. Many of these cruel, inhumane devices have been preserved in various museums throughout Europe today.
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Post by Richard McFarland on Oct 16, 2007 0:02:45 GMT -5
geoff, nathan,
I have been following these posts closely and do enjoy seeing some of this direct questioning and answering without anger or animosity. We all are truly brothers in Christ and it shows for all to see here before the friends and the world who happen by to look and read some.
We truly have peace and love in Christ.
I was concerned over the true beginnings of this way when I first read of William Irvine and others from shortly before the turn of the century. I had heard that this way was the way of Christ and that we were living in the way in which Christ lived his life but I knew that was not quite true since Jesus was Jew. Jesus taught His own His new way and took us from under the Old law by his Sacrifice into a place of salvation through His blood.
I did not consider any implications from the way being raised up again when it was because to think otherwise would be taking away from the Power of God. We have examples in the Bible in both Testaments of God raising up holy men and women to meet His tasks for the plan He has had from the beginning.
To disregard others such as the Waldenses or the Vaudois apostles because they were "not of us" would seem to put us spiritually aloof especially considering Jesus words in Mk:9:40: For he that is not against us is on our part.
We should be very concerned of our acceptance and questioning of the Lord to ensure we do not overstep the bounds of possibilities for His plan and pattern for His chosen people world wide. We are but a small part of the world God so loved that He gave His only begotten Son!
The little history of these earlier ways does point to them being like more than unlike. They took no name as the names were given from the areas they lived and worshiped. Their structure was similar and Bible/Spiritually based.
Quite possibly there were no conventions in these earlier times. We have no instruction telling us to follow this tradition as this seems very unique to "house churches."
Workers lists? What do we know of their access to printing or distribution? If there were only a few then lists were not necessary and/or scribes might have been used. Do we have archives of our own?
The same question should logically apply to the hymn books. Quite possibly these people used an available hymn book of the times. Without meaning to be sarcastic, where are any remnant scrolls of the hymns mentioned in: Mt:26:30: And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.
Satan is lurking outside our way and indeed inside also. I know because I had to face him in professing people recently.
Questions and answers are edifying, strengthening, spiritually educational and actually quite fun as we can discuss the word of God without hatred or anger.
I truly love our Lord and I truly love this way! No unanswered question is worth leaving a doubt in my mind for with doubts come fears and with fears come comforting by Satan. I have seen it work and been very near to one who was lost to doubts, fears and the comforting of evil persons (Satan).
Brothers and sisters, let us each continue in faith in Jesus Christ and and enjoy the fellowship of the Conventions, weekly meetings and places of written conversation such as this.
I thank each of you for the kindness that has been shown to each other. This goes to prove that with the Spirit of the Lord we can even agree to disagree without fear.
Peace and Love in Jesus Christ,
Richard
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Post by nathanb on Oct 16, 2007 0:19:16 GMT -5
This email is from Del, a professing friend who wrote this to the Standingtrue message board but didn't know how to post it on here so he asked me to post it for him.
Nathan, I have enjoyed your standing true discussion board and was going to post the following, but it wouldn't let me. I guess I need to learn how to use it.
Del
Dear friends, I have enjoyed much the discussion on this subject. It would seem that there is pretty general agreement that there was a movement near the turn of the century in which a quite visible revival of faith in Jesus occurred. Because of many documents and stories of those who we now have fellowship with, it is easy to trace our roots back to that time in a physical sense. Likewise as Geoff correctly points out, the records before this time do not seem to exist in the same way.
This makes it easy to make one of two conclusions. Either there was no one who believed as we do prior to 1880, who came into contact with some of the early friends and workers or there is no written record of any such contact. Nathan seems to present a compelling case that there were indeed a few who survived earlier persecution who did indeed have contact with some of the early friends and workers. I have no reason to disbelieve that account, and it seems to fit into the many stories we have often heard of those who had read their bibles and God put it in their hearts to just wait for His sent ones to come to their area.
The important thing to me is what Richard brought out about this way being God's way, not our way, not some man's way, but God's way. So it really doesn't matter whether the ones that God sent forth at the turn of the century first heard others who believed, the importance is that they heard God's voice to their own hearts and followed Jesus in the way. I believe it is safe to say that when they did that, all who believed would have wanted to be in fellowship with them. That is just the way it is in this family of God. We want to be close to those who are close to Jesus.
Any who have read Cornelius' book the Apostles Doctrine and Fellowship can see that throughout the centuries it is possible to find those of like precious faith. But as he concludes it is not possible to show that there are complete links between those of like precious faith from one generation to the next. That doesn't say that the opposite is true and there was no links, I am sure in many cases there are, but it simply says that the written records of those who were literally persecuted to death for their beliefs is very very sketchy. Perhaps God planned it that way so that our faith would be a living faith in Him only.
Love to all, Del H.
~~~ Nathan: Del, Thanks... for sharing your wisdom and understanding with us! please feel free and jump in to share your thoughts with us.
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Post by nathanb on Oct 16, 2007 0:36:41 GMT -5
Thanks, Richard for your awesome and beautiful post.
Geoff, and I have very interesting backgrounds... both of us were NOT born and raised in the 2x2 fellowship... Both of us were members of different denomination churches before we heard the Gospel from the workers ourselves.
I met Geoff in Greg Lee's chatroom and we had discussed different topics in the past. We do not always agree on everything but we want to show a respect for each other's experience and understanding as brothers in Christ.
I don't have or know all the answers. I have a lot of things to learn but I would like to share the little that I have learned from my study, and research on church history.
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geoff
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Post by geoff on Oct 16, 2007 15:01:38 GMT -5
This is so far an interesting discussion, and its nice to be able to discuss such things without animosity - thanks for that.
Comments on a few points made since my last post...
Nathan: Historical documents facts on my website and Robert Darling's personal experience indicate there has always been people who believe and practice in the apostolic 2x2 Itinerant ministry and believers through down the ages since the time of Jesus, the early apostles and PRIOR! to the time of William Irivine. You can't NOT deny this church history. Believe or NOT it is up to you.
I disagree that historical documents and your website prove this point. But be clear, lest I fail to make this point clear enough, I'm not saying that there have never in history been some who follow the itinerant ministry format, nor the home meeting etc, just that its not proven that it has been continuous all that time.
But I'm not promoting the GAP theory either. I'm not pointing to any specific gap, and in fact had forgotten that some have formulated this idea calling it the "gap theory".
It was easy for me to focus on a specific period and suggest that there were no connected 2x2 ministry at that time. I used the early 1800s as an example.
You can't NOT deny this church history. Believe or NOT it is up to you
I CAN deny it until its proven. Whether I believe it or not is irrelevant and in fact in the scheme of things unimportant. I'm not important enough that my beleif or not is important. But the continuous unbroken itinerant paired ministry has not been shown properly by anyone to have existed. There is no histiorical document that teaches this. There are documents that show its intermittent existence.
There has been 2x2 Itinerant apostolic ministry and fellowship have existed continously from Jesus and apostles days until now..
This pojnhasn't been proven yet. A postulation isn't a proof.
I have read these above statement or questions from the ex-2x2 website in the past... I can't answer and have no answer because I wasn't born or profess at this period and time 1800-1914.
I wasn't suggesting that you should have this from personal knowledge. The statements you've produced from early times do not rely on your personal knowledge, so this perdio of time need not rely on your personal knowledge either. Not being alive in any period of time isn't a valid reason to be unable to show evidence of something from that time. I didn't extract these questions from any other source, I wrote them myself.
However, this I know for a FACT! which people CAN'T deny.... It is NOT Misleading people when we say! there has always been men and women whom God raised up that have existed and continously practicing Jesus and the apostles' 2x2 Itinerant ministry and fellowship through down the ages! to our days.
This isn't a fact, its an opinion. If we followed your earlier reasoning, then we'd have to say that you weren't alive then so you wouldn't know. But putting aside that argument as being childish (on my part), this isn't a proven fact. I claim it IS misleading to state something for which there is no proof.
If you don't mind Geoff... Can show me where Jesus or any of the apostles teachings teach about the "GAP theory" of Christ's TRUE church and the Itinerant ministry.
I do not support this GAP theory as its stated elsewhere. But I do thnk there have been periods where there is no record of any such fellowship or ministry. NO record means no written evidence. Perhaps there is some? I've not seen any references to it yet. I pointed to some of the sort of things that might constitute such evidence. But Jesus or the Apostles teaching or not teaching about something doesn't prove or disprove its existence. Jesus didn't preach about radio communications that we have today. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And that isn't to demean Jesus teachings, its just a fact that a thing being included in Jesus teaching doesn't declare a point valid or invalid.
To address Richards post... Richard wrote I was concerned over the true beginnings of this way when I first read of William Irvine and others from shortly before the turn of the century.
When I first went to any gospel meetings (not B&R, no prior contact), I asked those workers about the beginnings. I had a reference from an encyclopedia of religions that laid out the start of our current fellowship, with WI (and others too), and this was acknowledged by those workers. So for the last 30 years thats been my belief, and it was relatively recently that I was surprised to find that some had been taught (and believed in) a continuous, connected, unbroken fellowship from Christs time.
To disregard others such as the Waldenses or the Vaudois apostles because they were "not of us" would seem to put us spiritually aloof...
I support this unexclusive viewpoint. I am not saying these Waldenses were "not saved" or any such thing. Just that our current fellowship is not an extension of their tradition.
Workers lists? What do we know of their access to printing or distribution? If there were only a few then lists were not necessary and/or scribes might have been used. Do we have archives of our own?
It could be that this habit started suddenly in 1905. (the earliest surviving list). But it seems unbelievable that even without names, lists etc, not one name of a worker for the few decades immediately prior to 1880 exists.
Del makes some good points too... (via Nathan - thanks Nathan for that)
This makes it easy to make one of two conclusions. Either there was no one who believed as we do prior to 1880, who came into contact with some of the early friends and workers or there is no written record of any such contact.
I think there are other possible conclusions. For example.. There could have been such people before those days (1880s), that were unconnected.
So it really doesn't matter whether the ones that God sent forth at the turn of the century first heard others who believed,...
I agree, it doesn't matter. But the original point asked is "Are we misleading people to say..."? I still maintain that to promote an unproven "continuous connected... fellowship" is misleading.
Finally, Nathan said
I don't have or know all the answers. and on this we are agreed, and share the same position. I too don't have all the answers, but I continue to seek for solid ground, definitive proofs for assertions of historical fact.
keep up the good work, keep the faith...
Geoff
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Post by nathanb on Oct 16, 2007 17:00:26 GMT -5
Geoff wrote: This is so far an interesting discussion, and its nice to be able to discuss such things without animosity - thanks for that. ~~~~ Nathan: I too appreciate your patience, longsufferings with me on some of my answers. It is tough to know exactly what others are asking and saying sometimes without speaking face to face.Geoff wrote: Comments on a few points made since my last post... Nathan said: Historical documents facts on my website and Robert Darling's personal experience indicate there has always been people who believe and practice in the apostolic 2x2 Itinerant ministry and believers through down the ages since the time of Jesus, the early apostles and PRIOR! to the time of William Irivine. You can't NOT deny this church history. Believe or NOT it is up to you.1) Geoff wrote: I disagree that historical documents and your website prove this point. But be clear, lest I fail to make this point clear enough, I'm not saying that there have never in history been some who follow the itinerant ministry format, nor the home meeting etc, just that its not proven that it has been continuous all that time. ~~~~ Nathan: I just want you to remember! It is NOT my OWN idea historical documents. You can disagree ALL you want and it doesn't bother me one bit, Geoff. NOT good to have people agree with all every time. 2) Geoff wrote: But I'm not promoting the GAP theory either. I'm not pointing to any specific gap, and in fact had forgotten that some have formulated this idea calling it the "gap theory". It was easy for me to focus on a specific period and suggest that there were no connected 2x2 ministry at that time. I used the early 1800s as an example. ~~~~ Nathan: I am very pleased to KNOW that you don't believe in the GAP theory! Nathan said: You can't NOT deny this church history. Believe or NOT it is up to you3) Geoff wrote: I CAN deny it until its proven. Whether I believe it or not is irrelevant and in fact in the scheme of things unimportant. I'm not important enough that my beleif or not is important. But the continuous unbroken itinerant paired ministry has not been shown properly by anyone to have existed. There is no histiorical document that teaches this. There are documents that show its intermittent existence. ~~~ Nathan: Continuous unbroken itinerant ministry has NOTHING to do with your or mine Salvation!
The Catholic Church in Rome and the Vaudois apostles (A.D. 70-1800) have documents according to their Church history. Both groups can trace their lineage back to the early apostles then to Jesus Christ as the FOUNDER! It doesn't change the the fact if you, me, or anyone who believes it or NOT. It's historical document fact.
God the Father, God the Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit will send forth the workers/apostles "CONTINOUSLY" into God's harvest/work in EVERY generation to all nations until His Son returns to reign king of kings and Lord of lords on the earth.Nathan said: There has been 2x2 Itinerant apostolic ministry and fellowship have existed continously from Jesus and apostles days until now..4) Geoff wrote: This poinhasn't been proven yet. A postulation isn't a proof. ~~~ Nathan: Well, Geoff... The Waldenses Church still exist today and they have all the documents for you to see about their 2x2 Itinerant forefathers workers/apostles through down the ages since the time of Paul apstle. Nathan said: I have read these above statement or questions from the ex-2x2 website in the past... I can't answer and have no answer because I wasn't born or profess at this period and time 1800-1914.5) Geoff wrote: I wasn't suggesting that you should have this from personal knowledge. The statements you've produced from early times do not rely on your personal knowledge, so this period of time need not rely on your personal knowledge either. Not being alive in any period of time isn't a valid reason to be unable to show evidence of something from that time. I didn't extract these questions from any other source, I wrote them myself. ~~~ Nathan: Well, Geoff... you are not the first Person to come up with your list of questions. I have read them before from the ex-2x2 members, on different message boards and website. So, these questions which you have it is NOT new to me I have read them before. Good questions though.Nathan said: However, this I know for a FACT! which people CAN'T deny.... It is NOT Misleading people when we say! there has always been men and women whom God raised up that have existed and continously practicing Jesus and the apostles' 2x2 Itinerant ministry and fellowship through down the ages! to our days.6) Geoff wrote: This isn't a fact, its an opinion. If we followed your earlier reasoning, then we'd have to say that you weren't alive then so you wouldn't know. But putting aside that argument as being childish (on my part), this isn't a proven fact. I claim it IS misleading to state something for which there is no proof. ~~~ Nathan: I say it's fact for me and you are entitled to say its my opinion. It is misleading and not enough proof for you but It is enough proof for me.Nathan said: If you don't mind Geoff... Can show me where Jesus or any of the apostles teachings teach about the "GAP theory" of Christ's TRUE church and the Itinerant ministry.7) Geoff wrote: I do not support this GAP theory as its stated elsewhere. But I do think there have been periods where there is no record of any such fellowship or ministry. ~~~ Nathan: Thanks, for sharing what you think but let me ask you again, Geoff... Do you KNOW or HAVE 1 or 2 verses in the New Testament where it indicate or say there's a period of NO 2x2s Itinerant and fellowship of Jesus did NOT exist?
Or do you read anywhere in the Scriptures where Jesus teaches or the apostles writings write about the Way, the Truth of Jesus' Church and ministry disappear for 100 or 1800 years then God would raise someone (William Irvine) to RESTART Jesus' Church again?
~~ Why? does God NEED someone to RESTART Jesus' Church when He said even the GATES of Hell can't prevail against it.8) Geoff wrote: NO record[/color] means no written evidence. Perhaps there is some? I've not seen any references to it yet. ~~~ Nathan: As Richard and myself have written about the evidences are out there Geoff! go to Google.com and search it out for yourself. Have you done any research on your own about the Vaudois, the Waldenses, the Cathars, Albigenses before? And if you haven't how can you know any references?8) Geoff: I pointed to some of the sort of things that might constitute such evidence. But Jesus or the Apostles teaching or not teaching about something doesn't prove or disprove its existence. Jesus didn't preach about radio communications that we have today. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And that isn't to demean Jesus teachings, its just a fact that a thing being included in Jesus teaching doesn't declare a point valid or invalid. To address Richards post... Richard wrote: I was concerned over the true beginnings of this way when I first read of William Irvine and others from shortly before the turn of the century.When I first went to any gospel meetings (not B&R, no prior contact), I asked those workers about the beginnings. I had a reference from an encyclopedia of religions that laid out the start of our current fellowship, with WI (and others too), and this was acknowledged by those workers. So for the last 30 years thats been my belief, and it was relatively recently that I was surprised to find that some had been taught (and believed in) a continuous, connected, unbroken fellowship from Christs time. Richard wrote: To disregard others such as the Waldenses or the Vaudois apostles because they were "not of us" would seem to put us spiritually aloof... Geoff reply: I support this unexclusive viewpoint. I am not saying these Waldenses were "not saved" or any such thing. Just that our current fellowship is not an extension of their tradition. Richard wrote: Workers lists? What do we know of their access to printing or distribution? If there were only a few then lists were not necessary and/or scribes might have been used. Do we have archives of our own?Geoff reply: It could be that this habit started suddenly in 1905. (the earliest surviving list). But it seems unbelievable that even without names, lists etc, not one name of a worker for the few decades immediately prior to 1880 exists. Del makes some good points too... (via Nathan - thanks Nathan for that) Dale wrote: This makes it easy to make one of two conclusions. Either there was no one who believed as we do prior to 1880, who came into contact with some of the early friends and workers or there is no written record of any such contact.Geoff reply: I think there are other possible conclusions. For example. There could have been such people before those days (1880s), that were unconnected. Del wrote: So it really doesn't matter whether the ones that God sent forth at the turn of the century first heard others who believed,...Geoff reply: I agree, it doesn't matter. But the original point asked is "Are we misleading people to say..."? I still maintain that to promote an unproven "continuous connected... fellowship" is misleading. Geoff wrote: Finally Nathan said: I don't have or know all the answers.Geoff wrote: and on this we are agreed, and share the same position. I too don't have all the answers, but I continue to seek for solid ground, definitive proofs for assertions of historical fact. keep up the good work, keep the faith... Geoff ~~~~ Nathan: Well, Geoff... Thanks, in a million my brother! for good, interesting questions, thought provoking answers. You make me think! and it is good for me to understand and search these things out for myself also. Like I wrote on different message board doing my own research has strengthen my belief, Faith, and Love for God's words and promises.
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Post by Joe on Oct 16, 2007 17:13:58 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for all your post... a very good discussion.
The last point made: "I don't have or know all the answers."
and
"and on this we are agreed, and share the same position. I too don't have all the answers, but I continue to seek for solid ground, definitive proofs for assertions of historical fact."
I agree and would only like to add that I don't know very much, except that there are some facts about WI starting and others following his example. To this I only say, great, I knew that before God spoke to me because I was born and raised in this. I am thankful he started it... and that others have liked it and followed it. I know for myself that when God started dealing with my heart, I knew it was him talking and dealing... not the workers, not my parents, not anyone around me. In fact I would have to say that I spent a couple of years making sure that it was not them, but God alone speaking. Yes, when I responded and started giving him my life, the dealings became stronger and more convincing. I then made that known to the workers and those around me.
Today, I will have to say that we have the knowledge and should be willing to acknowledge that WI was indeed one of the first that sought to go forth as the original apostles and establish meetings in homes for fellowship in this time period. Then other things were added, such as conventions & special meetings. Those things only seek to enrich our fellowship, and I am thankful they do. But we have to draw near to the Spirit and to God before he will reveal to us the proof that this is again God's hand working, dealing, supporting, encouraging, creating a Kingdom within the hearts of his children here on this earth. I think both Geoff and Nathan would agree that if there was not a single person here on this earth that had God's spirit within, and that seems highly unlikely, that he could raise to himself someone that would believe and walk and follow his bidding. Could that not have been WI? It does seem though that WI got a little sidetracked like Saul did in David's time, so those who felt the need to ask him to not preach as he was, knew he would leave not change.
I think today, it is up to us to prove the heart of God to ourselves, because the need for proof or lack of it showing there was someone before to hand it on, is limiting the power of God here on this earth in the lives of his children.
God Bless
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Post by nathanb on Oct 16, 2007 19:03:37 GMT -5
1) Joe wrote: Thanks everyone for all your post... a very good discussion.
The last point made: " Nathan said: I don't have or know all the answers." and Geoff said: "and on this we are agreed, and share the same position. I too don't have all the answers, but I continue to seek for solid ground, definitive proofs for assertions of historical fact."
2) Joe wrote: I agree and would only like to add that I don't know very much, except that there are some facts about WI starting and others following his example. To this I only say, great, I knew that before God spoke to me because I was born and raised in this. I am thankful he started it... and that others have liked it and followed it. I know for myself that when God started dealing with my heart, I knew it was him talking and dealing... not the workers, not my parents, not anyone around me. In fact I would have to say that I spent a couple of years making sure that it was not them, but God alone speaking. Yes, when I responded and started giving him my life, the dealings became stronger and more convincing. I then made that known to the workers and those around me.
~~~ Good to see you posting again, Joe. I am very thankful to read about different men and women whom God raised up through down the age to carry on Christ's precious gospel of Salvation to every generation.
Our heavenly Father is a fair God... His desires to give every generation the same opportunity in hearing His Son Precious Gospel of Salvation.
God wants everyone to make his/her choice to serve Him willingly by choice. God doesnt want anyone to serve him to please our our parents, our peers or to be accepted by others. Don't serve God for the WRONG reason then life can be very miserable.
3) Joe wrote: Today, I will have to say that we have the knowledge and should be willing to acknowledge that WI was indeed one of the first that sought to go forth as the original apostles and establish meetings in homes for fellowship in this time period. Then other things were added, such as conventions & special meetings. Those things only seek to enrich our fellowship, and I am thankful they do. But we have to draw near to the Spirit and to God before he will reveal to us the proof that this is again God's hand working, dealing, supporting, encouraging, creating a Kingdom within the hearts of his children here on this earth.
~~~ The Vaudois apostles (A.D. 70-1800) and their "friends" had special religious gatherings among themselves, annual conventions to strengthen their faith and where they sent out new preachers to start with older workers as their mentors for 3 years then the new ones move on with another older worker.
John Govan Faith Mission Founder in 1886, and William Irvine were NOT the first ones to come up with conventions, special meetings, workers going in pairs, married workers, the terminologies such as the friends, the workers, companions, etc...
The Book: The Heroic of Men and Women for religion of Jesus Christ written by James D. Macabe in (1881)
Soon after the introduction of Christianity into Italy 70 A.D. by the apostles, the people in these valleys became converts to the Faith preached by Paul! the apostle. They accepted and taught the doctrines of the apostles and practice the simple rites or usages as described by Justin or Tertullian.
The Vaudois were divided into "TWO" classes, the "Apostles" or the "Perfect" and "the Friends or Believers." Among the apostles bound by vow of poverty, wandered about from place to place preaching.
Such an Itinerant life was ill suited for married state, and to the profession of poverty they added the vow of Chastity. VERY few of the Vaudois apostles were married in the ministry and their perpetual mission, their poverty, their missionary tours, their lives spent amidst warefare's and danger, make it easy to understand the reason of their CELIBACY!
The apostles were NOT allowed to perform manual labor, but to depend for their subsistence on the members of the sect known as "FRIENDS," these continued to live in the world, married, owned property, and engaged in secular pursuits. Their generosity and alms were to "Provide" for the materials needs of the Apostles or the Perfect.
~~ Their missionaries were everywhere, proclaming the simple truths of Christianity, and stirring the hearts of men and women to their very depth in Hungary, Bohemia, France, England, Scotland, as well as Italy.
The Vaudois apostles ALWAYS went Two and Two: The older minister on his part, thus made his preparation by "Training" for the church SUCCESSORS! worthy of it. His task being accomplished he could die in peace, with consolotary assurance of having committed of the sacred trust of the Gospel into prudent and zealous hands.
Their maintenance of the obsolute authority the word of God and of the doctrine of Salvation by Jesus Christ. The Vaudois, therefore are NOT schematics, but "CONTINUED" inheritors of the Church founded by Jesus Christ and the early apostles.
~~~ In the annual synod, special gathering, which was held in the valleys inquiries were made concerning the conduct of the ministers and changes of "Residence," were made among them. Those actually employed in the ministry were exchanged from place to place EVERY 3 years. Two of them always exchanged with another, accepted the aged preachers who no longer able.
Supreme legislative power was vested in the general CONVENTION, which met once or twice a year and was orginal compose of the apostles but a later date only of those senior members among them.
The apostles admonished those who behave ill, and if remonstrance's produce no effect, they went to length of "Excommunication" but it was very rare.
The Vaudois apostles Always went Two and Two, a younger man and an older one. The latter was the redigor, and companion the coadjutor, they traveled to Italy, where they had stations organized in many places and secret adherents in almost all the tours.
The younger apostles were thus imitated into the dedicated duties of Evangelization, each of them is under the experience guidance of a man of years in the ministry, who according to the disciples of his church was his superior.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~ When I have more time I will post more.......
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Post by Emy on Oct 16, 2007 23:16:43 GMT -5
Coming late to this discussion...
IMO, to say "This way is from the beginning" doesn't indicate an unbroken connection. It never did in my mind, I guess. Years ago when I was in a hospital, a Catholic priest wanted to know if we could trace our faith back to Jesus. I told him no, but that wasn't the point.
The point is being LIKE the church that became the body of Christ after he was crucified. Not too long after the conversation with the priest, a worker spoke in a Bible study about how a recipe for bread makes the same bread no matter when it is used. Does the Bible give us a "recipe" for being a part of the body of Christ?
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selah
Junior Member
Currently Reading 1 Samuel
Posts: 77
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Post by selah on Oct 17, 2007 0:03:39 GMT -5
Yes...You must be born again.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by nathanb on Oct 17, 2007 0:45:12 GMT -5
Yes...You must be born again. Blessings, Linda Yes, I agree You must be born again....
Jesus own words Verily, Verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of the Water (the word of God) and of the Spirit (Holy), he can NOT enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)
I Cor. 1:18, 21, 24 For the preaching of the Cross (Calvary) is to them that perish, foolisheness; but unto us who are SAVED it is the power of God.... It pleased by the foolishness of PREACHING! to SAVE them that Believe.
But unto them who are CALLED both Jews and Gentiles, Christ the Power of God, and the Wisdom of God.
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geoff
New Member
Posts: 0
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Post by geoff on Oct 17, 2007 2:27:52 GMT -5
Good to see a few more people joining this discussion. And good that we can keep it a civil one. Comments on a few points made... Emy said This way is from the beginning" doesn't indicate an unbroken connection...I agree Emy, it doesn't. And I too claim that phrase... on the basis that we are trying to do as Jesus taught. NOt always well, not always right, but trying. But what Nathan is claiming is something different. He is claiming that there IS an unbroken connection all the way back. Thats largely the point of this thread. By making such a claim are we "misleading people"? The Vaudois (French term for Waldenses) was itself a startup group of the middle ages (late 1100s) at the time of Pope Alexander 3rd. Nathan claims they still exist today, and that seems partially confirmed as "Today, the Waldensian Church is included in the Alliance of Reformed Churches of the Presbyterian Order" (ref: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldensians ) Nathan asked me some specific questions, so.. Do you KNOW or HAVE 1 or 2 verses in the New Testament where it indicate or say there's a period of NO 2x2s Itinerant and fellowship of Jesus did NOT exist?Short answer "no". Long answer.. I don't see what this has to do with it, and said so earlier. The absence of something from Scipture is proof of nothing necessarily. I used the example of some aspects of modern technology. Lets use mobile phones. There's no mobile phones in the scripture. That doesn't mean they don't exist, nor that we should not use them. Its irrelevant. The fact that scripture does not say that there will be a time when there will not be a paired itinerant ministry, does not say anything about today. In fact on that very point, scripture does imply that the conditions that Jesus set up for the ministry, in (eg Luke 10) were changed. (see Luke 22:35,36)? Nate further said.. Why? does God NEED someone to RESTART Jesus' Church when He said even the GATES of Hell can't prevail against it.This question imples that you feel that our fellowship constitues the only true way, and that contradicst your agreement with Richard about not ignoring the Christianity in other traditions. There has clearly been a Christian Church since Jesus day. Continuous, unbroken, recorded in history, documented facts. The Church didn't need restarting. Its just that our fellowship system needed it. There were paired itinerant ministries though the ages at different times - agreed historical fact. But there has not been a continuous, connected group of which we are a part today. Today the Waldenses exist, but we are not part of it. They are a seperate group. If our fellowship came from that, then when was the split that divided us? and another question... Have you done any research on your own about the Vaudois, the Waldenses, the Cathars, Albigenses before?short answer "yes". For other readers of this discussion, lets be clear. The points made about being born again, about what constitutes salvation, etc, we are agreed. Salvation is not from a system, not from historical facts, not from accepting or disputing what did or didn't happen in the 1880s. What we're discussing is the question of whether we're being misleading when we say that our fellowship has existed in its current form, continuously and without gaps since Jesus day. I say no, and that that fact doesn't matter. Nate says it has done and that history proves it. On this point we disagree. edit. Wrong quote corrected, reference added.
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Post by Jesse Lackman on Oct 17, 2007 20:25:58 GMT -5
"What we're discussing is the question of whether we're being misleading when we say that our fellowship has existed in its current form, continuously and without gaps since Jesus day. I say no, and that that fact doesn't matter. Nate says it has done and that history proves it." I'll humbly submit that instead of yes or no it might be more accurate if we admit we don't know where and when there may have been those in fellowship with God with or without a fellowship and ministry like Jesus established. Something happened in the late 1800s but there was a big forest outside that tree. That all we seem to see is that tree should not make us forget about the huge forest that tree is in. God is well able to have had some in fellowship with him - with or without the fellowship and ministry like Jesus established - any time thoughout history he wanted it so. We can't say yes or no about it, all we can honestly and objectively say is we don't know, and since we really don't know for sure it becomes a moot point. "The absence of something from Scipture is proof of nothing necessarily." The same could be said of history; "The absence of something from history is proof of nothing necessarily". The dark ages are called dark ages for a reason, a lot of history didn't survive the dark ages. I think this is precisely why it is suggested we not be taken up with endless geneologies, (I am of Xxx, I am of Xxxx), and that we remember, "I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase." Jesse Lackman
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Post by mzbetts1 on Oct 17, 2007 21:10:00 GMT -5
This is a very interesting article in the archives in Paris, France. Anyone can go there and read the original. This is only a part of it.
"Declaration of the Cardinals of the Roman Catholic Church to Pope Giulio in 1550. From Paris National Library Folder B 1088 Vol. 2, Pages 641-650.
Of all the counsel that we can offer your Holiness, we have left the most necessary for the last. We should open wide our eyes and make use of all of our efforts on our own behalf. That is to say, permit as little as possible the reading of the gospel, especially in the common language in every country that is under our jurisdiction. Let us limit ourselves to those portions of the gospel that are usually read during mass, and let us not permit any more to be read.
As long as the people will be content with such limited portions our interests will prosper; however, as soon as the people desire to hear more our interests will fail. The Holy Bible, more than any other book, has caused tumults and tempests to rise up against us and thus, we have been the losers. So much so that if anyone examines carefully the teachings of the Bible in comparison with those imparted in our churches, he will soon find dissentment, and will understand that our teachings are often different from the Bible and even contradictory to the scriptures..
If the people realize this, we will become the object of universal scorn and hatred. Therefore, it is necessary to hide the Bible from the public’s eyes, but with extreme precaution so as not to cause rebellion."
Notice this is HISTORY in 1550. We were told the Popes were mean to people as well.
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