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Post by nancyeinspahr on Oct 10, 2007 22:33:30 GMT -5
I am thinking today, too, of what we heard at Riverton, Utah conv a couple of years ago from Irving Ross. He was pointing out that we could copy the NT way of how the ministry went forth. We could copy meeting in homes, etc. and it still wouldn't be pleasing to God if we didn't have the life of what was in them. We are not part of an organization, but rather an ORGANISM. Christ's church is a living church. His ministry is a living ministry. We have the privilege of being "alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." Ro 6:11 We are thankful that through the help of God's Holy Spirit we can discern the difference and know true fellowship with one another because each is in fellowship with Christ. We understand what it means to have been quickened, and that we continue to be so! We look to the resurrection of these mortal bodies/ the coming again of Christ. When we will "know even as also we are known"..........
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Post by Betty Morris on Oct 10, 2007 23:26:32 GMT -5
You know something, I can't see how we are misleading people when we say Jesus only and no one else started this fellowship we enjoy with God and His people, a new and living way, a living way because the law did not give life. I believe God planned His way with Jesus in heaven before Jesus left the glory there to come to earth to live, die and be resurrected so that we could be saved from a lost eternity. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life so why isn't the way from the very beginning even in that sense, beginning in heaven before the earth was created? I just pray that people will give themselves a chance to learn what is God's will for them and not yield to the enemy's tactics to deceive them by telling them they have been told lies, which in fact, they have not.
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Post by Betty on Oct 10, 2007 23:38:00 GMT -5
You know something, I can't see how we are misleading people when we say Jesus only and no one else started this fellowship we enjoy with God and His people, a new and living way, a living way because the law did not give life. I believe God planned His way with Jesus in heaven before Jesus left the glory there to come to earth to live, die and be resurrected so that we could be saved from a lost eternity. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life so why isn't the way from the very beginning even in that sense, beginning in heaven before the earth was created? I just pray that people will give themselves a chance to learn what is God's will for them and not yield to the enemy's tactics to deceive them by telling them they have been told lies, which in fact, they have not.
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Post by nathanb on Oct 11, 2007 0:06:06 GMT -5
I am thinking today, too, of what we heard at Riverton, Utah conv a couple of years ago from Irving Ross. He was pointing out that we could copy the NT way of how the ministry went forth. We could copy meeting in homes, etc. and it still wouldn't be pleasing to God if we didn't have the life of what was in them. We are not part of an organization, but rather an ORGANISM. Christ's church is a living church. His ministry is a living ministry. We have the privilege of being "alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." Ro 6:11 We are thankful that through the help of God's Holy Spirit we can discern the difference and know true fellowship with one another because each is in fellowship with Christ. We understand what it means to have been quickened, and that we continue to be so! We look to the resurrection of these mortal bodies/ the coming again of Christ. When we will "know even as also we are known".......... Thanks, for sharing your thoughts. It says in Acts 5:32 The Holy Ghost whom God has given to them that OBEY! him. When we Obey the teachings of His Son, and the apostles who follow in the same footsteps of Jesus then God grants us His Spirit to dwell in our hearts.
Then the Spirit will be our Teacher to guide, teach us the Truth of God. (John 16:13, 14) Howbeit, when He the Spirit of truth is coming, He will guide you into ALL TRUTH: for He shall NOT speak of Himself; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will show you things to come. He shall glorify me (Jesus): for the Spirit receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.
~~~ The Spirit always glorify Jesus, and pointing others to follow Him. One of the Spirit's responsibility to reveal Jesus, the Truth and Way to Salvation.
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geoff
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Post by geoff on Oct 11, 2007 14:24:23 GMT -5
Nathan said "From many historical documents facts which I have read the form of our fellowship has EXISTED in its current form, continous since the time of the Jesus and the apostles for 1800 years... prior to the time of John Govan the Faith Mission founder in 1886, and William Irivine who was a 2x2 worker in 1897."
Thats intersting Nathan. Can you give some references for these documents? Is there a record of any workers names prior to say 1850? Is there a record of a convention place prior to then? Even one?
And also said... "People can BELIEVE whatever they want but historical documents facts are there for us to read and learn from the past."
People believe either what they want or whats put in front of them as evidence. Rather than placing opinion or secondhand reports of something, the best way to convince others is to place the evidence in front of others. The documents might be there for all to read, but you'll have to point people to them. Would you mind doing that please? References to these documents would do - you shouldn't have to do all the work, just give the references and let others (like me) search them out.
I'm interested to find some evidence that what the first workers I spoke to told me about the beginnings was wrong.
I'm interested to find that when they told me that it started in Ireland in the 1880s I was told wrong information.
A worker name or a convention date prior to then would go some way to helping.
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Post by nathanb on Oct 11, 2007 19:55:30 GMT -5
Nathan said "From many historical documents facts which I have read the form of our fellowship has EXISTED in its current form, continous since the time of the Jesus and the apostles for 1800 years... prior to the time of John Govan the Faith Mission founder in 1886, and William Irivine who was a 2x2 worker in 1897."
1) Geoff wrote: Thats intersting Nathan. Can you give some references for these documents? Is there a record of any workers names prior to say 1850? Is there a record of a convention place prior to then? Even one?
~~~ Many of these historical documents facts are found on my 2x2 website. Yes, there has been apostles who called themselves workers! ;D for 1800 years Prior to the time of John Govan and William Irivne were born.
Yes, the Vaudois apostles or workers (A.D. 70-1800) had conventions where young men and women started in the ministry with an older companions. Nathan, also said... "People can BELIEVE whatever they want but historical documents facts are there for us to read and learn from the past."
2) Geoff wrote: People believe either what they want or whats put in front of them as evidence. Rather than placing opinion or secondhand reports of something, the best way to convince others is to place the evidence in front of others. The documents might be there for all to read, but you'll have to point people to them. Would you mind doing that please? References to these documents would do - you shouldn't have to do all the work, just give the references and let others (like me) search them out.
I'm interested to find some evidence that what the first workers I spoke to told me about the beginnings was wrong.
I'm interested to find that when they told me that it started in Ireland in the 1880s I was told wrong information.
A worker name or a convention date prior to then would go some way to helping.
~~~ According to the historical documents that I have read there has been many 2x2 apostolic Itinerant workers like the 12 and 70 apostles exist for 1800 yrs in England, Africa, Egypt, Ireland, Scotland, Spain, Switzerland, Italy, Germany, Russia, Romania, etc... before John Govan, Faith Mission group in 1886. and William Irvine, John Long so-called 2x2 workers "Experiement" in 1897.
I believe these John Govan, William Irvine & John Long copied the 2x2 Itinerant workers ministry and the fellowship from those who had done it before them the Vaudois, the Waldensians, Albigenese, Cathars, Poor men of Lyons, and others like them.
Well, I have given names of different books, websites addreses on my Topicsinbible website where these information can be read.
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geoff
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Post by geoff on Oct 12, 2007 15:17:08 GMT -5
Nathan
thanks for your reply, but I still have a couple of problems that you could help with...
You pointed me to your website. I think I might have read all thats there at one time or another, but I don't remember anything thats as specific as something that names a worker or convention (after the model that we have today), that links the current history to those that you point to.
As there's so much on your website, maybe you remember which article I should re-read? Pointing me just to your website is a little like saying "there's the library, go read!"
If we start at todays worker list, its very possible to make a list of nearly every worker since about 1890. We could start at 2007 and work backwards to about 1890. But then we find a lack of data. We get a huge number on todays list, and a reducing number as we go back in time to that time.
Thats because there were no workers immediately associated with those workers of that time (last 1880s to 1900) before then.
This is not to say there were never preachers who went in pairs, between 0033 and say 1870, not to say that there were never gatherings of Christians that could be interpreted to be similar to a convention of today (except for the obvious differences). I'm not saying there were never Christians like the Waldenses, etc, just that they were in no way connected to our fellowship. I note that your website doesn't expand much on the Waldenses structure (they didn't call themselves "workers"; they had priests, bishops, deacons etc, had practices of confession before a priest, they remained in communion with the Catholic church. I remember working my way through those huge volumes of Philips Schafe's "History of the Christian Church" in about 1980 or 1981. If I remember right, the practices of the early NT seemed to be all but gone by about 200 AD.
Can you be a little more specific in the connection you think exists between these early sects and our fellowship in the late 1800s?
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Post by nathanb on Oct 12, 2007 19:44:37 GMT -5
Thanks, for sharing your own experience and understanding. I have some questions for you, Geoff my friend. I can only share the information of the 2x2 Itinerant apostles/workers through down the ages for 2000 yrs on my website. I don't have all of their names but people can read it on there and do more of their own research as they wish.
1) Do you believe William Irvine the founder of the 2x2 Itinerant workers' church?
2) Are you saying there were "NO" 2x2 Itinerant workers/apostles exist before William Irvine started his so called 2x2 Itinerant workers experiement in 1897?
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Post by Richard McFarland on Oct 12, 2007 22:29:06 GMT -5
geoff, I had never heard of the Waldenses until I visited Nathan's website and then began to explore some on my own. There is actually quite a bit of history of the Waldenses on the Internet and there is no reason to doubt most if any of it.Phil:1:1: Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
1Tm:3:10: And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
1Tm:3:1: This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.The word "Workers" is only mentioned 6 times in the New Testament and 3 of the 6 are as a bad example: 2Cor:11:13: For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
Phil:3:2: Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Lk:13:27: But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
1Cor:12:29: Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
2Cor:6:1: We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
Col:4:11: And Jesus, which is called Justus, who are of the circumcision. These only are my fellowworkers unto the kingdom of God, which have been a comfort unto me.I feel we should all be very careful before taking this fellowship as "our fellowship." This fellowship is not ours, but the fellowship of Jesus Christ; approved by Him, lived by Him, bought and paid for by Him in His Holy Father's Name. We have only been granted the wonderful grace of being chosen to know of this fellowship and that only for the Father's faith in our own faith and love for His only begotten Son.
In spite of what so many friends may think or even what some of the Workers may have spoken in the past, the Holy Bible does not promise the Word to be handed down from Jesus to the apostles to Workers, bishops, elders, etc in an unbroken succession. We have so many examples of God raising up Holy men and not so Holy men to use as His Own that it would seem to take away from His power to deny that He did not do this very thing 100 years ago. (see: Noah, Moses, John the Baptist, Saul{Paul})
This way is right.This way is unique. This way is different and within it there is a special closeness to God through Jesus Christ that I have not seen in any of my excursions to other churches that are full of pomp and circumstance.All the more reason I think to have faith in our God who can raise up Holy men to meet the spiritual need where He sees fit at any time. The early Christian NT practices may have "gone out" as Schafe claims but history also points to it going "underground" - literally. From "Spiritsites" - www.spiritsites.com/reference/church_hist_part1.htm
In the meantime, in 62 A.D., the Jerusalem Christian church under the leadership of James was wiped out and James was thrown from the Temple Mount by Roman soldiers. A full-scale Jewish rebellion breaks out the following year. In 70 A.D., Rome burns Jerusalem, the Jewish Temple is destroyed, and the Jewish people are subjugated. The homeland of Jesus is no longer the homeland of Christianity.
Persecution continued for another 100 years and the Christians were driven underground in Rome (literally underground into catacombs) and into hiding elsewhere. As Christianity slowly becomes more Romanized, the persecution became less and less. This is a great time of change throughout the Roman Empire and people were looking for new beliefs to replace the old gods.
By 200 years A.D., Christianity had spread everywhere in the Roman Empire. Early Christianity gathered in households where the communal meal took place. These places of worship have become known as "house churches." In these homes, the women were often in charge because this was their domain. Men and women were on an equal footing in the early Christian movement. These house churches evolved informally and developed different customs, but they all shared a communal meal (communion). This diversity led to different factions within the Jesus movement threatening to destroy Christianity. So, a new movement arose to organize and centralize the movement as a way to guarantee the survival of Christianity.Before I ever allow myself to get carried away in thinking that I am in a "better" church or more "holy" than others I always remind myself of the words Jesus Himself spoke to his disciples: Mk:9:40: For he that is not against us is on our part.In the name of Jesus Christ, Peace,
Richard
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geoff
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Post by geoff on Oct 13, 2007 2:00:56 GMT -5
Thanks, for sharing your own experience and understanding. I have some questions for you, Geoff my friend. I can only share the information of the 2x2 Itinerant apostles/workers through down the ages for 2000 yrs on my website. I don't have all of their names but people can read it on there and do more of their own research as they wish.
1) Do you believe William Irvine the founder of the 2x2 Itinerant workers' church?
2) Are you saying there were "NO" 2x2 Itinerant workers/apostles exist before William Irvine started his so called 2x2 Itinerant workers experiement in 1897? Nathan thanks for your reply. I note that you didn't answer the question about being more specific. To answer your questions though... 1. Yes I do. This is what i was told by workers. I don't see this as threatening, a problem, a worry or a problem to accept this fact of history. I don't see it as a problem that there have been periods in history when there were few or none in true fellowship with God, or that our existing form of fellowship started in the 1800s. 2. I have not used this word "experiment" to describe the fellowship started by Irvine and others. I see that term as somewhat derogatory, and I'm surprised you use it in this conversation. Do I think there were no workers before then? I do not believe there were any. No ambiguity. But I'm quote prepared to be proved wrong. I will read an reliable references, and referenced historical research etc. I have lived on the farm next to the one where Wm Irivine lived at a time, and nexct to the one where his sister lived. His lifes story is a matter of recrorded local history in Kilsyth. Its possible to read books and pamphlets in the local library there that refer to him, and others and what happened in those days. One immediate and reliable proof would be the names of some workers and perhaps convention places that were about in the years immediately prior to Irvines time. We can trace our fellowship back worker by worker from today to Irvine (et al), but not one person prior. You have some dispute about the year on your website. (1887 verses 1897 or something), but thats rather immaterial. It might be a typo, it might not. But it remains that we don't have a single name for a worker prior to the 1880s, say the 1870s. You said "I don't have all of their names ..."Do you have ANY names? You also said " I can only share the information of the 2x2 Itinerant apostles/workers through down the ages for 2000 yrs on my website."Who places this restriction on you? Who stops you from discussing this except on your website? Or is it a self imposed restriction. I am thankful to you for the various information you have assembled on your website, but it is somewhat selective. Your description of some groups, (presumably taken from other websites that use exactly the same wording), leaves out very relevant parts that do not show similarities between groups in history and our fellowship. In case you missed the question I asked earlier. Can you be a little more specific in the connection you think exists between these early sects and our fellowship in the late 1800s?
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Post by nathanb on Oct 13, 2007 16:06:30 GMT -5
1) Richard wrote: Geoff, I had never heard of the Waldenses until I visited Nathan's website and then began to explore some on my own. There is actually quite a bit of history of the Waldenses on the Internet and there is no reason to doubt most if any of it.2) Richard wrote: Phil:1:1: Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:
1Tm:3:10: And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
1Tm:3:1: This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.The word "Workers" is only mentioned 6 times in the New Testament and 3 of the 6 are as a bad example: 2Cor:11:13: For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
Phil:3:2: Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
Lk:13:27: But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
1Cor:12:29: Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
2Cor:6:1: We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
Col:4:11: And Jesus, which is called Justus, who are of the circumcision. These only are my fellowworkers unto the kingdom of God, which have been a comfort unto me.~~~~ NathanB: Thanks, so much Richard! Yes, there are many websites on the Internet and books are available today that we can read about the Vaudois apostles, their followers (disciples) and many of their brethen throughout Europe, Africa, Egypt, Russia, etc.. who believed in the same 2x2 Itinerant ministry and the New Testament fellowship through down the ages PRIOR! to the birth of John Govan and William Irvine who were born in the 1800's. My former fellow-worker Jay Wicks and myself first! heard about the Vaudois apostles during the 1100's in Coosbay, Oregon 1990 when a church historian was given a lecture about these men belief and the 2x2 Itinerant ministry during the 11th century. About 6 months later! at Boring convention in Portland, Oregon one of the workers had a book The Pilgrim Church by E.H. Broadbent forewordby F.F. Bruce.... It was in this book I found a lot information about Peter Waldo apostle (1173) and his fellow-workers who I heard mentioned by that professor in Coosbay, Oregon. ~~~ An ex-2x2 worker named Joe K. (1900's) who wrote in a letter (1950) about the Pilgrim Church book where there were apostles/workers and disciples existed prior the time of William Irvine in 1897 for 1800 years. So some of the friends, 2x2 workers, and ex-2x2s have read and known about the Vaudois apostles who lived and practiced the 2x2 Itinerant ministry for many years. 3) Richard wrote: I feel we should all be very careful before taking this fellowship as "our fellowship." This fellowship is not ours, but the fellowship of Jesus Christ; approved by Him, lived by Him, bought and paid for by Him in His Holy Father's Name. We have only been granted the wonderful grace of being chosen to know of this fellowship and that only for the Father's faith in our own faith and love for His only begotten Son.~~~ NathanB: I can say a heartily "AMEN!" brother. 4) Richard wrote: In spite of what so many friends may think or even what some of the Workers may have spoken in the past, the Holy Bible does not promise the Word to be handed down from Jesus to the apostles to Workers, bishops, elders, etc in an unbroken succession. We have so many examples of God raising up Holy men and not so Holy men to use as His Own that it would seem to take away from His power to deny that He did not do this very thing 100 years ago. (see: Noah, Moses, John the Baptist, Saul{Paul})
This way is right. This way is unique. This way is different and within it there is a special closeness to God through Jesus Christ that I have not seen in any of my excursions to other churches that are full of pomp and circumstance.~~~ Nathan B: Yes, I agree with you again, Richard. The Catholic church in Rome was a branch of the True Church of Christ which went astrayed by the end of the 3rd century. They've claimed of apostolic succession and they are correct! they can trace it back to Peter, Clement, and to Christ. There's nothing wrong claiming in apostolic succession because they can do it. It doesn't make them the True Church or bride of Christ. Jesus said, "ye shall know them (false prophets) by their fruits. Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a Corrupt tree brings forth EVIL fruit. Every tree that bring NOT forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. (Matthew 7:13-20) ~~ The Vaudois apostles also claim they can trace their lineage back to Paul the apostle whom they heard the Gospel from Paul when he was in Rome (A.D. 68)... We can read what kind of fruits these men and women produce in their 2x2 Itinerant ministry and fellowship. According to their church history it was very edifying NOT too so violence, tortures, deaths, killing like the Catholic Church in Rome history! Those who came in contact with the Vaudois or those like them according to their testimonies their lives were changed for the better. There were the 12, the 70 apostles, and other apostles which started out in the work of the Gospel in the book of Acts such as Matthias, Timothy, Silas, Luke, John Mark, Titus, Demas, and many more.... They had Many disciples who believed in the gospel of Christ that they preached. So when the Vaudois apostles preaching the Gospel of Christ to different countries throughout the world they found many apostles and disciples who believed in the same 2x2 apostolic ministry and New Testament church in many countries. Some of the 2x2 workers and the friends in the past spoke and said things which they had very little knowledge of because not too much information were available for them to read. Now, with the Internet we can find almost anything by searching google.com The Catholics in Rome and the Vaudois apostles have claimed Apostolic succesion. This is a historial document facts! according to their church history records. ~~ God has been raising up men and women in EVERY generation to continue on the Gospel of Jesus Christ to ALL nations until He comes again to reign on the earth with His chosen people for 1000 years. Richard reply: All the more reason I think to have faith in our God who can raise up Holy men to meet the spiritual need where He sees fit at any time. The early Christian NT practices may have "gone out" as Schafe claims but history also points to it going "underground" - literally. ~~~ Nathan: Wow! Richard... it seems you have been doing quite a bit of research on different church history on your own. Good for you! my friend. I hope many of the friends and workers search these things out for themselves also. It will strengthen your Faith in God's words and promises. You will see the scriptures open to you in such a way will humble you to dust and ashes. Richard wrote: From "Spiritsites" - www.spiritsites.com/reference/church_hist_part1.htm~~~ Nathan B: Interesting, Thanks. That's a very nice, brief reference Church history. 5) Richard wrote: In the meantime, in 62 A.D., the Jerusalem Christian church under the leadership of James was wiped out and James was thrown from the Temple Mount by Roman soldiers. A full-scale Jewish rebellion breaks out the following year. In 70 A.D., Rome burns Jerusalem, the Jewish Temple is destroyed, and the Jewish people are subjugated. The homeland of Jesus is no longer the homeland of Christianity.
Persecution continued for another 100 years and the Christians were driven underground in Rome (literally underground into catacombs) and into hiding elsewhere. As Christianity slowly becomes more Romanized, the persecution became less and less. This is a great time of change throughout the Roman Empire and people were looking for new beliefs to replace the old gods.
By 200 years A.D., Christianity had spread everywhere in the Roman Empire. Early Christianity gathered in households where the communal meal took place. These places of worship have become known as "house churches." In these homes, the women were often in charge because this was their domain. Men and women were on an equal footing in the early Christian movement. These house churches evolved informally and developed different customs, but they all shared a communal meal (communion). This diversity led to different factions within the Jesus movement threatening to destroy Christianity. So, a new movement arose to organize and centralize the movement as a way to guarantee the survival of Christianity.
Before I ever allow myself to get carried away in thinking that I am in a "better" church or more "holy" than others I always remind myself of the words Jesus Himself spoke to his disciples:
Mk:9:40: For he that is not against us is on our part.~~~ Nathan: These information of church history which we have found and read should make us very humble because there's so much we do NOT know or understand of God's greatness and wisdom. God just give us little glimpses of His Truth and Way on the earth.
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Post by nathanb on Oct 13, 2007 22:02:23 GMT -5
~~ NB wrote: Thanks, for sharing your own experience and understanding. I have some questions for you, Geoff my friend. I can only share the information of the 2x2 Itinerant apostles/workers through down the ages for 2000 yrs on my website. I don't have all of their names but people can read it on there and do more of their own research as they wish.
1) Do you believe William Irvine the founder of the 2x2 Itinerant workers' church?
2) Are you saying there were "NO" 2x2 Itinerant workers/apostles exist before William Irvine started his so called 2x2 Itinerant workers experiement in 1897?
Geoff wrote: Nathan, thanks for your reply. I note that you didn't answer the question about being more specific.
To answer your questions though...
1. Yes I do. This is what i was told by workers. I don't see this as threatening, a problem, a worry or a problem to accept this fact of history. I don't see it as a problem that there have been periods in history when there were few or none in true fellowship with God, or that our existing form of fellowship started in the 1800s.
~~~~ NB: Sorry, I don't believe William Irivine is the Founder of the 2x2 Itinerant ministry or the fellowship. William Irvine is NOT a founder but a "FINDER" because he did NOT come up the 2x2 Itinerant ministry by himself. William Irvine copied it from John Govan and perhaps others before him.
2. I have not used this word "experiment" to describe the fellowship started by Irvine and others. I see that term as somewhat derogatory, and I'm surprised you use it in this conversation.
~~~~ NB: I don't understand why you say the word "Experiment" is somewhat derogatory! It was William Irvine's own words in one of his letters when he called it was his "experiement" AFTER he LEFT the ministry in 1914 and eventually became an ex-2x2.
3) Geoff wrote: Do I think there were no workers before then? I do not believe there were any. No ambiguity.
~~~ NB: Sorry, different church historians might disagree with you but you are entitled to your own opinion.
4) Geoff wrote: But I'm quote prepared to be proved wrong. I will read an reliable references, and referenced historical research etc.
~~~ NB: Well, I can provide different websites for you to check it out if you like.
5) Geoff wrote: I have lived on the farm next to the one where Wm Irivine lived at a time, and nexct to the one where his sister lived. His lifes story is a matter of recrorded local history in Kilsyth. Its possible to read books and pamphlets in the local library there that refer to him, and others and what happened in those days.
One immediate and reliable proof would be the names of some workers and perhaps convention places that were about in the years immediately prior to Irvines time. We can trace our fellowship back worker by worker from today to Irvine (et al), but not one person prior.
You have some dispute about the year on your website. (1887 verses 1897 or something), but thats rather immaterial. It might be a typo, it might not. But it remains that we don't have a single name for a worker prior to the 1880s, say the 1870s.
~~~ NB: Robert Darling a worker from Ireland who started in the work in 1905 have said it differently.
You said "I don't have all of their names ..."
6) Geoff asked: Do you have ANY names?
~~~ NB: Yes, I have many different names of 2x2 Itinerant workers prior to the time of William Irvine and John Govan in 1886.
You also said "I can only share the information of the 2x2 Itinerant apostles/workers through down the ages for 2000 yrs on my website."
7) Who places this restriction on you? Who stops you from discussing this except on your website? Or is it a self imposed restriction.
~~~ NB: Nobody has placed restriction anything on me. I think you misunderstand my above statement.
8) Geoff wrote: I am thankful to you for the various information you have assembled on your website, but it is somewhat selective. Your description of some groups, (presumably taken from other websites that use exactly the same wording), leaves out very relevant parts that do not show similarities between groups in history and our fellowship.
~~~ NB: I have listed what these 2x2 Itinerant apostles/workers belief, teachings, way of worship.... If you are a 2x2 friend or workers you can spot the similiarities. Go to Waldenses doctrines, belief, statement of faith on my website then you can read it for yourself.
9) Geoff wrote: In case you missed the question I asked earlier. Can you be a little more specific in the connection you think exists between these early sects and our fellowship in the late 1800s?
~~~ What do you mean by connection? can you explain it more clearly, thanks.
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geoff
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Post by geoff on Oct 14, 2007 6:49:49 GMT -5
Nathan
Thanks for your further explanations.
I do not diagree that there were Waldenses, that there were itinerant paired preachers prior to the 1880s. thats not a matter of dispute. As you say its a matter of history.
You have said that Irvine and his friends copied this format from some of these earlier people. I don't know if thats right or not, but I couldn't dispute it. But that's not the point here.
The point is that there was no connection (other than this similarity) between Irvine and his pals and those earlier ones.
You asked what I mean by "connection". I mean that they were not in fellowship. That they did not meet personally, that there was no continuity between them.
This might perhaps be like you or I today reading of something in history and thinking "thats a good idea, I'll do that too". Then we might start doing what we'd read about. That does not mean that we are connected, or that we are a continuation of that earlier thing.
And so I think that Irvine etc had no connection with these earlier paired itinerants, such as the Waldenses etc. Whether Irvine of any others read about those earlier ones or not perhaps we'll never know, but I agree there are strong similarities, thats no disputed.
I note that you quoted me and replied...
6) Geoff asked: Do you have ANY names?
~~~ NB: Yes, I have many different names of 2x2 Itinerant workers prior to the time of William Irvine and John Govan in 1886. But you didn't actually give any names. Its a common way to ask this question, to say "do you have any...?", meaning "please provided the names". Your answer is technically correct to just say "yes I do", but it doesn't take matters any further.
Please give some references. Please state the names of some workers immediately prior to Irvine etc.
Question: Do you claim, Nathan, that there were 2x2 workers in the first half of the 1800s? (1800 - 1850)? If you do why do you think that there's no record of them in the same way there's extensive records from 1900 onwards?
I did misundertsnad you comment when I said "I can only share the information of the 2x2 Itinerant apostles/workers through down the ages for 2000 yrs on my website"
Your use of the word "ONLY", threw me of course. I thought that meant that the website was the ONLY way you could share this info. And I wondered why that would be, and who would restrict this. What did you mean?
In your post you said "NB: Robert Darling a worker from Ireland who started in the work in 1905 have said it differently."
What did Robert darling say about it?
Geoff
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Post by nathanb on Oct 14, 2007 21:33:08 GMT -5
Geoff,
I will share with you part of the email which one of the friends in Manitoba, Canada by the name of Bob G. R. wrote to me in Novermber, 2005.
Dear Nathan,
For the record I ran my first account which I had written up and posted by George Gittins (a USA worker now labor in Canada) to ensure I had recorded correctly what he told us. George G. made a couple of minor corrections which I have incorporated.
George Gittins met Robert Darling at Calloway, Nebraska (USA) convention in the early 1970. Robert Darling, from Ireland (the first known worker's list indictates he went in the work 1905).
~~~~ These two workers had an interesting visit between 3-4 A.M. drinking tea in the convention kitchen where it took place. During the course of their impromptu visit, Robert D. talked about the early days.
George told Robert D. that he did not have any concerns about the beginnings of our faith back in IRELAND! but wonder if he could tell him about it. Without hesitation, Robert proceeded to do so.
He told George that William Irvine "HEARD" the gospel through his sister who was working as a domestic helper for a family who had moved to IRELAND! from the Alps region of Germany/Switzerland/France some years earlier because of religious persecution. (There may have been other families who had moved to IRELAND as well and were in fellowship with the family for whom William Irvine's sister worked.)
In any event, this family told William Irivine's sister about their faith and the true ministry, and apparently she attended fellowship meeting in their home.
After making her choice she got in touch with her brother, William Irvine, who was preaching for Faith Mission in IRELAND. He came and met these folks and AFTER hearing the gospel from them, also made his choice and was BAPTIZED. William Irivine, then LEFT! the Faith Mission and went out into the ministry.
The following day George G. went to see Garrett Huges (another early day worker) who was also at convention and told him what Robert Darling had shared with him the night before. Garett comment was words to the effect that Robert would know because he was there.
I suggested to George G. that this story should really be TOLD! because it seemed to add an "Important" piece to the puzzle that had many folks here in North America and other places CONFUSED! and bitter about the Origins of our faith.
George's comment was, "Yes! I agree it should be TOLD! you can tell this story to Whomever! you wish."
I asked George G. about the family/s that Robert mentioned. What happened to them? Robert apparently told George that a number of their descendants had gone into the work and at the time of him telling the story, there were still a number in the ministry---- I believe, in North America.
Robert also told George that the family/s in question did not want their name/s spread around and being given public credit/notoriety for the revival of the faith at the turn of the century. (Why? george was not sure. Perhaps, they did not want the attention). So, George did not pursue finding out their name/s and I presume, at the time the name were indicated to Robert's very interesting story.
Robert, did tell George, however, that he KNEW the family concerned and had been in their home. In a later discussion George said that it was certaintly Scriptural for William Irivine and his sister to profess and be BAPTIZED through an elder. He referred to Phillip and the Ethopian Eunuch in Acts 8:29-39.
Ananias, a disciple of Jesus preached and baptized Saul who later became Paul, one of the apostle leaders brought the Gospel to the Gentiles. (Acts 9:10-20)
George also told us that some years ago when he and Calvin Casselman (now deceased worker) were together in B.C. Cornelius Jaenen, the author of "Apostles' Doctrine and Fellowship," had come to visit them ( Cornelius had professed through Calvin).
George used the occasion to tell Cornelius what Robert Darling had told him about the early days. Cornelius' response was that he was NOT too surprised because Robert's story was consistent with the things the had over the years and come across in his research.
~~~~~~~~~~~
In 2001 I wrote to George Gittins myself and asked hims about the early days... his letter is posted on my 2x2 website under Part III: Is William Irvine the founder in 1897? You can read what George G. and others have said about William Irvine.
I have talked to Cornelius J. on the phone couple times and I shared with him the information which I posted about the Vaudois apostles and others like them through down the ages on my website before he wrote the book "Apostles' Doctrine and the Fellowship" around 2003.
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geoff
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Post by geoff on Oct 15, 2007 14:34:35 GMT -5
Nathan thanks for posting that info. I enjoyed re-reading it. I had read it some time ago for the first time.
It leaves more questions unanswered than it answers.
If we follow this line of the story then, we have Wm Irvine hearing the gospel from his sister. I wonder which sister that was, he had several. (I used to live near where one of his sisters lived with her husband and family.)
According to Robert Darling (who is mentioned on the 1905 workers list) WI heard the gospel from his sister who heard it from others, but the others are unidentified.
This account implies that there were very few friends at this time.
Its interestig that the account acknowledged a "revival of the faith" - acknowledges that there was a gap. Of course we don't know the size of that gap, could have been 1700 years or so. But a gap implies a new beginning. That happened in Ireland in the 1880s, and has been recorded as such. Thats what I was first taught back in the 70s.
This email you received of this account does nothing to hold up the theory that there were workers of friends in the years prior to say 1880.
So we're no further ahead. No workers, friends etc identifiable prior to 1880 or so.
The manner of our fellowship starting (exactly who, exactly how) might be possibly disputed, but the timing cannot. There were none connected to us prior to 1880. There might have been some with similar practices and similar doctrine, but not actually connected.
I personally don't think any of this matters in terms of salvation, in terms of relationship with the Lord. Our salvation is not of a system, not of men, not of a fellowship, its in Jesus. Our fellowship is not with the dead, but with the living. We don't meet with historical characters on Sunday morning, but with living people.
But to some, the beginnings have this importance: They were told that our fellowship had existed continuously from biblical days until now, and thats simply not true. (and this note of what Robert Darling said doesn't change that).
There are many factors that could prove otherwise, but they don't. Such things as: * a hymn book prior to the 1914 one (Even pre 1880) * the name of even ONE worker prior to 1880 * the name of a convention ground proven to have had a convention since before 1880 * the name of one professing person prior to 1880
No-one has ever produced such a fact. Or do you have one?
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