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Post by seeker on Sept 27, 2007 16:45:40 GMT -5
A few people I know have left our fellowship because they feel they have been lied to about the beginnings of our church. I often hear Workers say “This way is from the beginning”. I know that is true, in that our fellowship is patterned after the New Testament church. To say it is from the beginning, implies, or leads one to believe, our church has continued, uninterrupted from the days of Jesus to now. The historical record shows that not to be true. I believe the Workers should be more open, and dare I say honest, in the impression they give.
I have notes from Dan Hilton, a Western US Worker, where he clearly states our fellowship was patterned directly after the NT church and there is not a direct uninterrupted continuation from the time of Jesus.
If it was stated that around the turn of the 20th century, God-fearing people decided to go back to the basic, simple teachings of Jesus and to follow His example for the ministry and the NT church, people could understand and accept that without being hung up on the history of our fellowship.
I have a cousin whose daughter went into the Work a few years ago. He recently told her about Wm. Irving/ history, etc., and she had never been told anything about it from her overseer or older Workers. My cousin just wanted her to be aware in case some one sand-bagged her with a history question.
While I know some of the people who have left use this as an excuse for leaving, but I think we should eliminate that possibility by being more open and honest.
Anyone else’s thoughts?
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Post by nathanb on Sept 27, 2007 20:11:31 GMT -5
A few people I know have left our fellowship because they feel they have been lied to about the beginnings of our church. I often hear Workers say “This way is from the beginning”. I know that is true, in that our fellowship is patterned after the New Testament church. To say it is from the beginning, implies, or leads one to believe, our church has continued, uninterrupted from the days of Jesus to now. The historical record shows that not to be true. I believe the Workers should be more open, and dare I say honest, in the impression they give. I have notes from Dan Hilton, a Western US Worker, where he clearly states our fellowship was patterned directly after the NT church and there is not a direct uninterrupted continuation from the time of Jesus. If it was stated that around the turn of the 20th century, God-fearing people decided to go back to the basic, simple teachings of Jesus and to follow His example for the ministry and the NT church, people could understand and accept that without being hung up on the history of our fellowship. I have a cousin whose daughter went into the Work a few years ago. He recently told her about Wm. Irving/ history, etc., and she had never been told anything about it from her overseer or older Workers. My cousin just wanted her to be aware in case some one sand-bagged her with a history question. While I know some of the people who have left use this as an excuse for leaving, but I think we should eliminate that possibility by being more open and honest. Anyone else’s thoughts? Thanks, for your many interesting posts, Seeker!
Here is my understanding according to historical document facts which I have read....
The apostolic 2x2 Itinerant ministry like in Matthew 10 and Luke 10 and the fellowship which we read in the Gospel which started by Jesus and the early "has been continuing" from 33-1800 A.D. through down the ages. We have these men and women testimonies, belief, doctrines to prove it.
The Vaudois apostles, the disciples and their fellowship were Paul the apostle converts in Italy 70 A.D.
Remember, there were more than 12 apostles=sent ones preachers whom Jesus sent out in the Gosple and many of the new apostles/preachers were sending out in the book of Acts such as Matthias, Paul, Timothy, John Mark, Luke, Silas, Titus, Sosthenes, Apollo, Andronica and Junia, Tychicus, Aristacus, Ephaphas, Demas, Epharotitus, etc...
So many of the 12, 70, others apostles, and the disciples of Jesus went everywhere preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ or sharing their testimonies to all the world. They had many converts throughout the world...
God gave us a glimpse of Christ's kingdom Eternal kingdom which can't NEVER destory in Daniel 2: 31-45.
In the Gospel Jesus told us more about His Eternal Kingdom which will continue on the end of His second coming in the parable the grain of the mustard seed (Matthew 13:31,32)
Jesus own words to Peter, " Thou art Peter, upon this Rock (Jesus) I will build MY CHURCH! and the gates of HELL shall NOT prevail against it (Matthew 16:18,19).
Jesus went on to say, " And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be PREACHED! in all the world for a Witness unto ALL nations; and then shall the end come." (Matthew 24:14)
~~ Jesus gave John the apostle a glimpse into the future of Christ's eternal kingdom and the preaching of the Everlasting Gospel when he was a prisoner for the sake of gospel on the island of Patmos around 95 A.D.
Read Revelation chapter 14 about the Everlasting Gospel. Read Revealation chappter 11 about Christ's two witnessess! the Ministry..
Read Revelation chapter 13 about the True Church of Christ.
~~~~ The True Church of Jesus Christ which started by Him and the early apostles have been on the earth the last 2,000 yrs... William Irivne and John Long did NOT come up with the idea of 2x2 Itinerant workers ministry and the fellowship.
William Irvine, John Long and John Govan, the founder of the Faith Mission in 1886 copied it from those who had practiced the 2x2 Itinerant workers ministry before them!
The terminologies such as the Workers, the friends, companions, conventions, etc... have been used by the Vaudois Apostles and many those like them through down the ages for 1800 yrs.
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Post by Joe on Sept 28, 2007 9:07:33 GMT -5
I have some thoughts on this... and have talked to the workers about it... I think you will hear a different way of them saying they are from the beginning now than you have heard in the past. I think it changed about the time you started hearing that we are first generation no matter how many are professing in our ancestry. God speaks directly to us, not thru anyone else. We have no prophet that has gotten a revelation that we need to change... except Jesus. So in that sense we are from the beginning. Yes we worship as Jesus did with his disciples. He didn't gather with his disciples in the temple, it was not a place of worship. Neither were the synagogues. A synagogue was for hearing the word of God read from the scrolls like our Bible today. I believe the temple was for prayer and sacrifice, and Jesus took that need away. The synagogue is replaced by our Bible, so we just follow the rest of his life. A post that gives a little more about what this all means is located in the Scripture and Meditations section of this board under Readings and Testimonies: What does it mean. standingtrue.proboards83.com/index.cgi?board=testimonies&action=display&thread=1190986532&page=1
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Post by nathanb on Sept 28, 2007 22:06:19 GMT -5
I have some thoughts on this... and have talked to the workers about it... I think you will hear a different way of them saying they are from the beginning now than you have heard in the past. I think it changed about the time you started hearing that we are first generation no matter how many are professing in our ancestry. ~~~ NOT too many friends or workers KNEW very much of the 2x2 history 100 yrs ago... and we still don't know the whole story YET! new information are keep coming all the time.
~~~ Most of the workers and friends did NOT know, hear or read about the Vaudois, the friends of God, the Poor men of Lyons, Albigenses, Cathar apostles who existed 1800 yrs before William Irvine was born in 1800's.
As the friends and workers know more information of the past church history their understanding of Christ as the Truth and Way will continue to change. 2) God speeks directly to us, not thru anyone else. We have no prophet that has gotten a revelation that we need to change... except Jesus. So in that sense we are from the beginning. Yes we worship as Jesus did with his disciples. He didn't gather with his disciples in the temple, it was not a place of worship. Neither were the synagogues. A synagogue was for hearing the word of God read from the scrolls like our Bible today. I believe the temple was for prayer and sacrifice, and Jesus took that need away. The synagogue is replaced by our Bible, so we just follow the rest of his life. ~~~ I say a heartily Amen! to your above post.A post that gives a little more about what this all means is located in the Scripture and Meditations section of this board under Readings and Testimoneys: What does it mean. standingtrue.proboards83.com/index.cgi?board=testimonies&action=display&thread=1190986532&page=1
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Post by Alan C on Sept 29, 2007 5:07:33 GMT -5
A few people I know have left our fellowship because they feel they have been lied to about the beginnings of our church. I often hear Workers say “This way is from the beginning”. I know that is true, in that our fellowship is patterned after the New Testament church. To say it is from the beginning, implies, or leads one to believe, our church has continued, uninterrupted from the days of Jesus to now. The historical record shows that not to be true. I believe the Workers should be more open, and dare I say honest, in the impression they give. I have notes from Dan Hilton, a Western US Worker, where he clearly states our fellowship was patterned directly after the NT church and there is not a direct uninterrupted continuation from the time of Jesus. If it was stated that around the turn of the 20th century, God-fearing people decided to go back to the basic, simple teachings of Jesus and to follow His example for the ministry and the NT church, people could understand and accept that without being hung up on the history of our fellowship. I have a cousin whose daughter went into the Work a few years ago. He recently told her about Wm. Irving/ history, etc., and she had never been told anything about it from her overseer or older Workers. My cousin just wanted her to be aware in case some one sand-bagged her with a history question. While I know some of the people who have left use this as an excuse for leaving, but I think we should eliminate that possibility by being more open and honest. Anyone else’s thoughts? The way these people fall down is that they are putting blame on other people for how they feel and for what has happened to them. There relationship should be with God and if it was there could be no blame on other human beings.
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Post by Chris on Oct 3, 2007 16:43:18 GMT -5
I hear what you are saying Seeker. God is not the author of confusion. Can belonging to the 2x2 church save us? Can belonging to Christ save us? I believe that Jesus alone can save me. We sometimes sing “Saved while to Thee I cling”. It is our relationship with Jesus Christ that is all important, and being Spirit-led and spiritually minded people. When we understand that salvation is in our relationship with the Christ who alone could pay the price for our redemption, then how and when the current 2x2 ministry started does not matter at all. However, truth and honesty are important. Anyone who knowingly misleads another is answerable to God for that. I sure wouldn’t want to imply to anyone that salvation is in belonging to a church group, when clearly salvation is in belonging to Christ himself. If someone asks about the history of “the work” as we know it, then we should be open and honest with them. It’s a legitimate question, and the historical record is clear as you say. From my observations it seems that the biggest disappointment many ex-members of the church have is not that the ministry sprung from the Faith Mission in 1897. The biggest letdown is the intentional vagueness and denial and defensive reactions that they get when they try to discuss their concerns. If only the words of No. 10 were properly understood: "Jesus is our only message, Jesus all our theme shall be, we will lift up Jesus ever, Jesus only will we see". My thoughts, FWIW, Chris R A few people I know have left our fellowship because they feel they have been lied to about the beginnings of our church. I often hear Workers say “This way is from the beginning”. I know that is true, in that our fellowship is patterned after the New Testament church. To say it is from the beginning, implies, or leads one to believe, our church has continued, uninterrupted from the days of Jesus to now. The historical record shows that not to be true. I believe the Workers should be more open, and dare I say honest, in the impression they give. I have notes from Dan Hilton, a Western US Worker, where he clearly states our fellowship was patterned directly after the NT church and there is not a direct uninterrupted continuation from the time of Jesus. If it was stated that around the turn of the 20th century, God-fearing people decided to go back to the basic, simple teachings of Jesus and to follow His example for the ministry and the NT church, people could understand and accept that without being hung up on the history of our fellowship. I have a cousin whose daughter went into the Work a few years ago. He recently told her about Wm. Irving/ history, etc., and she had never been told anything about it from her overseer or older Workers. My cousin just wanted her to be aware in case some one sand-bagged her with a history question. While I know some of the people who have left use this as an excuse for leaving, but I think we should eliminate that possibility by being more open and honest. Anyone else’s thoughts?
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Post by Alan C on Oct 4, 2007 2:44:32 GMT -5
Like and agree with your thoughts, Chris. If we think otherwise we would be treating the sacrifice of Jesus with contempt.
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Post by philsmiley on Oct 5, 2007 4:55:29 GMT -5
I think the problem is, that people aren't aware of the facts. It seems some people heard this, and others heard another.
It is vauge, like our discussion on the Way, well this Way is from the beginning if we consider Jesus as the Way.
If it the practical things, well yes its in the Bible. But but but, W. I. did play a big role in what we have today, even if that is just from the Bible.
When people find out about W.I there immediate reaction is to deny it.
Then they realise... well he did play a role and get angry at not being told! I think the worst thing to tell them, (i learnt this by making the mistake) is to say.. it doesn't matter, the immediate reaction is, if it doesn't matter why wasn't I told!
P.S I don't think the issue is about the way we worship etc, it is whether W.I etc played a role in what happened in 1897.
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Post by nathanb on Oct 5, 2007 8:43:32 GMT -5
chrisrussnz
1) Can belonging to the 2x2 church save us?
~~ Belonging to a certain church organization that's including the 2x2 fellowship does NOT save us. Every child of God must be "Born again" by believing and accepting Jesus Christ as the Lord God and Savior to be SAVED.
Born and raise or going to a certain fellowship or church organization does NOT save us.
Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life no man comes to (God) the Father but through me." (John 14:6)
Jesus said to Nicodemus, "Verily, Verily I say unto thee, Except a man be Born Again! He can NOT see the kingdom of God... Except a man be born of Water (the word of God) and of the Spirit, he Can NOT enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:1-21)
~~~ Every true child of God has to be born again and confess Jesus Christ is the Lord God and Savior.
2) Can belonging to Christ save us?
~~ Only Jesus Christ can SAVE us. Howevr, we read in the Gospels and the book of Acts that those who believed in Jesus as the Savior and the apostles as the servants of God "Continued" steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers in one accord. (Acts 2:41,42)
In 95 A.D. gathering and fellowship of the believers continue on the apostle John wrote in (I John 1:1-7) That which was from beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye have "FELLOWSHIP" with us! and truly our "Fellowship" is with the FATHER! and with his Son Jesus Christ.
If we SAY we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not live the truth: But if we WALK in the light, as he is in the light, we have "FELLOWSHIP" with ONE another! and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from ALL sin.
~~~ According to the scriptures we read that "After" the believers who confessed Jesus Christ as their Lord God and Savior through the apostles preaching and ministry they continue having fellowship and partake the Eucharists- Bread and Win in rememberance of Jesus' Ultimate Sacrificed on Calvary's Cross, praising God the Father, singing Hymns, prayers, sharing the word of God with one another. (I Cor. 14:23-32; 11: 20-26)
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geoff
New Member
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Post by geoff on Oct 7, 2007 10:46:49 GMT -5
If we say that our fellowship has existed in its current form, continuously through the ages (and specifically before the late 1800s) then I'd say we ARE misleading people.
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Post by nathanb on Oct 7, 2007 19:34:09 GMT -5
If we say that our fellowship has existed in its current form, continuously through the ages (and specifically before the late 1800s) then I'd say we ARE misleading people. My understanding is:
From many historical documents facts which I have read the form of our fellowship has EXISTED in its current form, continous since the time of the Jesus and the apostles for 1800 years... prior to the time of John Govan the Faith Mission founder in 1886, and William Irivine who was a 2x2 worker in 1897.
People can BELIEVE whatever they want but historical documents facts are there for us to read and learn from the past.
It's a Fact and NOT misleading to say Jesus' New Testament 2x2 Itinerant ministry and fellowship "CONTINOUS" since the time of Jesus... prior to the time John Govan and William Irvine began their so-called experiement church/organization.
God the Father, Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit have been calling and chosen men and women to go forth and preach the Gospel of Salvation through believing in Christ in EVERY! generation since to time of the 12 and 70 apostles until Jesus comes again.
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Post by Alan C on Oct 7, 2007 23:45:00 GMT -5
If we say that our fellowship has existed in its current form, continuously through the ages (and specifically before the late 1800s) then I'd say we ARE misleading people. I would say that there have been breaks in time where God has had no one on this earth that He could have called His own. There were times in the old testament where that happened and then God raised up people again the worship and love Him. But I also say that I believe that we have the same spirit of fellowship and physical fellowship that was in Jesus day.
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Post by nathanb on Oct 8, 2007 0:26:59 GMT -5
If we say that our fellowship has existed in its current form, continuously through the ages (and specifically before the late 1800s) then I'd say we ARE misleading people. 1) I would say that there have been breaks in time where God has had no one on this earth that He could have called His own. There were times in the old testament where that happened and then God raised up people again the worship and love Him. ~~~ According to the Bible: God always has a remnant of His chosen people reserved for Himself who were doing His Will and upholding His teachings in the Old Testament and New Testament.
Paul wrote in (Romans 11:1-5)about..... Elijah made intercession to God," Lord they have killed thy prophets and digged down thine altars and I AM LEFT! alone, and they seek my life. But what God said unto him, "I have RESERVED for myself! 7000 men, who have NOT bowed the knees to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a REMNANT! according to the election of grace.
Jesus said, "I will BUILD my Church and the gates of HELL shall NOT prevail against it. And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be PREACHED unto all the world for a Witness unto ALL nations! and then shall the end comes." (Matthew 16:18; 24:14)
The Ministry: Revelation chapter 11 The True Church/Bride of Christ: Revelation chapter 12,14
The False Church/Bride of Christ: Revelation chapter 17, 18, 13, 2) But I also say that I believe that we have the same spirit of fellowship and physical fellowship that was in Jesus day. ~~~ I agree with you 100% because we have tasted and experienced the work of the Holy Spirit in our own hearts and lives.
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Post by nancyeinspahr on Oct 10, 2007 15:36:36 GMT -5
Today I am thinking too of Simeon and Anna, each with their vision which had been revealed through the Holy Spirit as recorded in Luke 2 of the coming Christ. They believed, they waited, and they recognized and rejoiced when the fufillment of their revelation came about. The work of God's Holy Spirit continues to this day. Men and women responding as the Lord makes His will known. Appreciate what Jesus says in John 14:16: "And I pray the Father and he will give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever;" :17 "Even the Spirit of truth..............." In God's time and way God's Truth has been preserved and will forever be.
Appreciate what has been posted re: God's faithfulness in having preserved and continuing to preserve a remnant unto Himself. I like too what was posted re: how John expressed his greeting in his 2nd epistle: "The elder unto the the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth, and not I only, but also all that have known the truth; :2 For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us forever." nancye
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Post by nathanb on Oct 10, 2007 22:19:59 GMT -5
Today I am thinking too of Simeon and Anna, each with their vision which had been revealed through the Holy Spirit as recorded in Luke 2 of the coming Christ. They believed, they waited, and they recognized and rejoiced when the fufillment of their revelation came about. The work of God's Holy Spirit continues to this day. Men and women responding as the Lord makes His will known. Appreciate what Jesus says in John 14:16: "And I pray the Father and he will give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever;" :17 "Even the Spirit of truth..............." In God's time and way God's Truth has been preserved and will forever be. Appreciate what has been posted re: God's faithfulness in having preserved and continuing to preserve a remnant unto Himself. I like too what was posted re: how John expressed his greeting in his 2nd epistle: "The elder unto the the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth, and not I only, but also all that have known the truth; :2 For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us forever." nancye Welcome to the ST message board, Nancy!
I believe we have a faithful and a fair LOVING God. He wants to give EVERY generation the same opportunity in hearing the same Gospel that Jesus and the apostles were preaching.
God said He would send more apostles/workers/laborers into the world so many people from different nations will have the opportunity in hearing the Wonderful Gospel of Christ our Savior. (Luke 10:2; Matthew 9:37,38)
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