delh
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Post by delh on Dec 17, 2008 13:31:44 GMT -5
Jesus spoke to all kinds of people...all were sinners...some were Apostles, the first disciples who began the spread of the gospel, others were new disciples won to the Lord through the testimonies of the first ones, and so it continued until today. When we believe, we are given the opportunity to receive gifts from the Spirit that empower us to carry out the work of the commission Jesus gave us. While some will evangelize, others will pastor, some will have the gift of hospitality etc. etc. etc. I do not see separate classes, only different giftings. When these gifts are brought together, the Church as a whole functions as a body, all parts working together. You see different classes, I see different gifts and functions. Blessings, Linda Yes Linda all are sinners. But disciples are repentant sinners, and they are in God's eyes very different than non-repentant sinners. Thus if you want to lump them as "all are sinners", and refuse to acknowledge that the message Jesus delivered to each of these different types of individuals was indeed different, that is your privilege. I will continue to read what he wrote to them as being very different. There is no question that it is only with the gifts of the Spirit that any child of God can carry out a function that God has asked of him. The opposite of that is called inequity where we each do things in our own way and power. " All we like sheep have gone astray each one to his own way and the Lord has laid on Him the inequity of us all Would you say that there is NO difference between a disciple and an apostle in Jesus time and in the time immediately after his death? If your answer is no, then I think there is no point of continuing this discussion. delh
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selah
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Post by selah on Dec 17, 2008 18:35:32 GMT -5
The difference between non-repentant and repentant sinners, is that the latter acknowledge what Jesus did for them, and as a result are born again of the Spirit. Of course they are different from those who have not experienced that awakening, but in the most basic sense we are all human beings, and we all sin; even repentant sinners/born-again believers.
Jesus message was and still is about the Kingdom of God. Those who received it then and those who receive it now, understand what He says. His message was not distinctly different, but there were specific instructions initially given to the 12, because they were the first ones taking the message to others.
How would you define the difference? I would say there were differences in instruction...in function....but no disciples were more valuable or above the others in another class. All were qualified by the Spirit, but not all were specifically chosen for full-time evangelism as was necessary with the first 12. They were ordinary people just like you and me; people who had received the message of the Kingdom, and later understood the message of redemption.
I often think of the Jews being God's chosen people. Was it because they were special in some way? Were they more spiritual...closer to God? God chose the Jews to be a race of people through which He would manifest Himself to the world. Now, we who are believers are grafted in, and He chooses to manifest Himself through all who will receive Him.
Perhaps you're right. I think there needs to be clear definition of what we mean by "no difference." We may be discussing apples and oranges.
Blessings, Linda
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selah
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Post by selah on Dec 20, 2008 16:25:28 GMT -5
On a thread on TMB we are discussing the emblems. It occurred to me that Jesus shared communion with the twelve, but today all believers partake, not only those who would be considered part of the "ministry."
Blessings, Linda
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Post by nathanb on Dec 24, 2008 10:57:55 GMT -5
On a thread on TMB we are discussing the emblems. It occurred to me that Jesus shared communion with the twelve, but today all believers partake, not only those who would be considered part of the "ministry." Blessings, Linda ~~~ Jesus was teaching the 12 apostles first the TRUE meaning of worshiping God in spirit and in truth which is commemorate He is the TRUE Passover Lamb of God. Then the 12 would teach the Eucharists=Thanksgiving to the disciples to keep it as an ordinance until Jesus comes again. (I Cor. 11:20-26)
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delh
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Post by delh on Dec 24, 2008 15:54:32 GMT -5
On a thread on TMB we are discussing the emblems. It occurred to me that Jesus shared communion with the twelve, but today all believers partake, not only those who would be considered part of the "ministry." Blessings, Linda ~~~ Jesus was teaching the 12 apostles first the TRUE meaning of worshiping God in spirit and in truth which is commemorate He is the TRUE Passover Lamb of God. Then the 12 would teach the Eucharists=Thanksgiving to the disciples to keep it as an ordinance until Jesus comes again. (I Cor. 11:20-26)Nathan, Glad for what you wrote. Yes it is very clear that this teaching which Jesus gave to the 12 apostles was just one of many teaching that they were to teach to all of the disciples. Just like there were many other teaching that Jesus gave to the 12 apostles and a few others that were to be taught to and carried out by those who would later be companions to the 12 apostles. They did not confuse between the two different messages. They certainly would not instruct a disciple who had a wife and children living on a farm to go forth into all the world ----. Neither would they instruct him to take no thought for tomorrow, knowing that there were many things that the farmer would need to consider about tomorrow so that he sowed his seed at the proper time and harvested at the proper time. After all if he did not provide for his family he was worst than an infidel. But they would tell a young Timothy or Titus or Silvanus to take no thought for tomorrow, so that they could be free to follow the Spirit's guidance as they carried forth the message of life. We could go on and on of how there are specific messages that Jesus gave to those who would fill different places in His kingdom. Jesus did not come to confuse us by asking us to do things that are impossible to do and that would conflict with other things that he asks us to do. His instructions are simply the best that could ever be made for each one of us to fill the specific place in His kingdom where He places us. delh
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selah
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Post by selah on Dec 27, 2008 23:41:44 GMT -5
Hi Nathan,
Yes. I believe the same type of thing happened with the commission Jesus gave the disciples. They were to teach others the truth of the new birth and the Kingdom, and the message would be perpetuated from the hearts of all believers to a world in need of redemption. Once we are reconciled to God, we become part of the ministry of reconciliation; we are ambassadors for Christ.
When Paul speaks of this in 2 Corinthians 5...when he says "we" and "us," he is not just speaking of those who were full-time evangelists, but of those who had experienced reconciliation with their heavenly Father.
I see it the same way as I see the emblems.
Thanks for your post, Nathan....always appreciate your input.
Blessings, Linda
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selah
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Post by selah on Dec 27, 2008 23:44:47 GMT -5
Amen delh.
Blessings, Linda
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delh
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Post by delh on Dec 28, 2008 18:43:58 GMT -5
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
It sure sounds to me like the writers of this letter are referring to themselves as the ambassadors for Christ and that the Corinthian readers of the letter were brought to Christ by the writers of the letter. Could you explain who you really think the you is in the underlined passage? Isn't it the readers of the letter. i.e. the Corinthians to whom Paul is writing?
There is only one other place that Paul refers to ambassador and it clearly is in reference to himself.
delh
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Post by nathanb on Dec 29, 2008 0:32:08 GMT -5
Hi Nathan, Yes. I believe the same type of thing happened with the commission Jesus gave the disciples. They were to teach others the truth of the new birth and the Kingdom, and the message would be perpetuated from the hearts of all believers to a world in need of redemption. Once we are reconciled to God, we become part of the ministry of reconciliation; we are ambassadors for Christ. When Paul speaks of this in 2 Corinthians 5...when he says "we" and "us," he is not just speaking of those who were full-time evangelists, but of those who had experienced reconciliation with their heavenly Father. I see it the same way as I see the emblems. Thanks for your post, Nathan....always appreciate your input. Blessings, Linda ~~~ Hi Linda, I have a lot of respect for you, your loving, kind spirit, and wisdom.
The great commission of making disciples from all nations which Jesus commanded in (Matt. 28) was ALL believers' responsibility, NOT just the apostles. We read the disciples (Stephen, Phillip the evangelist, Aquilla and Prisilla, etc) and the church scattered preacing the gospel everywhere in Acts 5.
The apostles and followers of Christ are His ambassadors on this earth.
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Post by nathanb on Dec 29, 2008 0:40:13 GMT -5
19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
It sure sounds to me like the writers of this letter are referring to themselves as the ambassadors for Christ and that the Corinthian readers of the letter were brought to Christ by the writers of the letter. Could you explain who you really think the you is in the underlined passage? Isn't it the readers of the letter. i.e. the Corinthians to whom Paul is writing? There is only one other place that Paul refers to ambassador and it clearly is in reference to himself. delh ~~~ I agree with what you wrote, Del..... I believe the apostles and the followers of Christ both are His ambassadors on the earth.
I know the friends have brought many people to Christ because their godly manners of life, testimonies, sharing the gospel with their neighbors, co-workers, friends, relatives, etc...
The friends' have contributed greatly in the gospel work. The workers can't do it all by themselves.... it wasn't God's plan that the workers do it alone without the friends.
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selah
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Post by selah on Dec 29, 2008 1:24:36 GMT -5
2 Corinthians 5:17-21
17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
I think Paul is speaking of himself AND those who are believers among those to whom he is writing...anyone who is in Christ; a new creation.
19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
Us - as in us who believe, who are in Christ. Paul is speaking of all who have been reconciled to God in Christ.
20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.
Again, it seems to me that Paul is saying it is as though God is making an appeal through those who believe...those who have been reconciled...those who are new creations..ambassadors for Christ. Those who have received the Spirit are now carriers of that new life in Him, and have a responsibility to share it with others. Paul includes all believers as those who would implore others to be reconciled to God.
21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
It seems to me that Paul is consistent in his use of pronouns. It would seem unlikely that he would single out only those who are in full-time evangelical ministry in this verse.
delh, I realize this discussion has its difficulties. I appreciate the efforts you've made to try to make sense of our differences. The truth is a treasure...we must keep uncovering it. I don't have it all, nor does anyone, but we can grow together as we do what you and I have been doing....working it out....sharing our thoughts...listening to one another.
And sometimes the answers are not either/or, but both/and.
Thanks again.
Blessings, Linda
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selah
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Post by selah on Dec 29, 2008 2:33:23 GMT -5
I'm sorry this thread was derailed by a different discussion. delh and I likely should have started a new thread. Sorry.... Blessings, Linda
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