Laying on of hands?

[delh]

Nathan,

I would certainly agree with you that we need to try ALL of the spirits both within and without the fellowship we are in. Even if there is only one true way that God has blessed on this earth, the scriptures are very clear that the wheat and the tares are growing together within HIS KINGDOM until the day of harvest. One only has to read carefully the messages to the seven churches in revelations to understand that the wheat and the tares were in fellowship together. In some cases the influence of the wheat was winning out and there was victory among those in the church, but sadly in some cases the influence of the tares was causing the light to go out in the church. We can expect the same today, that is why it is so important to try the spirits. It is wonderful that even in the worst, there were a few who had the victory --- they were busy trying the spirits.

delh

[otto2]

Nathan,
Am I correct in thinking that you acknowledge that not every spirit from within the 2x2's is from God: but you are unable to accept that God is behind any spirit from outside the 2x2's.

[nathanb]

otto2 said:

1) Nathan,
Am I correct in thinking that you acknowledge that not every spirit from within the 2x2's is from God:

~~~ Yes, that's correct. We have seen, known, and read about some BAD apples among the workers, and the friends.

2) but you are unable to accept that God is behind any spirit from outside the 2x2's.

~~~ I believe God is working in the lives of those outside of the 2x2s fellowship. God listens, hears and answers prayers from those who are not 2x2s.... I was one of them who NOT born and raise in the 2x2 fellowship that God heard my cried for His help.

[nathanb]

delh said:

1) Nathan,

I would certainly agree with you that we need to try ALL of the spirits both within and without the fellowship we are in. Even if there is only one true way that God has blessed on this earth, the scriptures are very clear that the wheat and the tares are growing together within HIS KINGDOM until the day of harvest.

~~~ Hi Del, Thanks for what you wrote. Jesus warned us about the tares will be within His Kingom until the harvest time. (II Peter 5:8) Be sober, be vigilant; because Satan, as a roaring lion walks about, seeking whom he may devour... whom resist steadfast in the faith.

All of the water in the ocean CAN'T sink the ship but the water from within the ship does. Jesus said, "Every house or city divided against itself shall not stand. (Matt. 12:25)


2) One only has to read carefully the messages to the seven churches in revelations to understand that the wheat and the tares were in fellowship together. In some cases the influence of the wheat was winning out and there was victory among those in the church, but sadly in some cases the influence of the tares was causing the light to go out in the church. We can expect the same today, that is why it is so important to try the spirits. It is wonderful that even in the worst, there were a few who had the victory --- they were busy trying the spirits.

delh

~~~ We must be constantly tried the spirits from within and without the 2x2s fellowship.

[otto2]

Nov 19, 2008 10:50:08 GMT -5 nathanb said:

otto2 said:

1) Nathan,
Am I correct in thinking that you acknowledge that not every spirit from within the 2x2's is from God:

~~~ Yes, that's correct. We have seen, known, and read about some BAD apples among the workers, and the friends.

2) but you are unable to accept that God is behind any spirit from outside the 2x2's.

~~~ I believe God is working in the lives of those outside of the 2x2s fellowship. God listens, hears and answers prayers from those who are not 2x2s.... I was one of them who NOT born and raise in the 2x2 fellowship that God heard my cried for His help.

Hehe, I see you've cleverly avoided the question again nathan; and with respect, it does you no credit.
I believe you know the question I'm asking; but in case I'm wrong I'll try to make it more clear.

You accept that God works in the lives of people outside the 2x2 church; but only to the extent that he is in the process of bringing them to the 2x2 church.

My question is this. Do you believe that the Spirit of God is behind the manifestation or practices of the people within any church other than the 2x2 church, and that God wishes them to remain where they are, because he has blessed them in that place; and they are doing his bidding in that place. They are his children and he is pleased with the way in which they are seeking to obey him. He is not seeking to bring them to the 2x2s, yet he is the Spirit that moves within them, not the devil.
Do you believe there are people within churches other that the 2x2 church who fall into this category

I have no problem with your answer to this question being "No" if that is indeed what you believe. You should have the courage and conviction of your beliefs and you should not twist and turn to hide them; in my humble opinion and with all due respect.
Thank you, otto.

[delh]

Nov 20, 2008 8:38:54 GMT -5 @otto2 said:

Nov 19, 2008 10:50:08 GMT -5 nathanb said:

otto2 said:

My question is this. Do you believe that the Spirit of God is behind the manifestation or practices of the people within any church other than the 2x2 church, and that God wishes them to remain where they are, because he has blessed them in that place; and they are doing his bidding in that place. They are his children and he is pleased with the way in which they are seeking to obey him. He is not seeking to bring them to the 2x2s, yet he is the Spirit that moves within them, not the devil.
Do you believe there are people within churches other that the 2x2 church who fall into this category

I have no problem with your answer to this question being "No" if that is indeed what you believe. You should have the courage and conviction of your beliefs and you should not twist and turn to hide them; in my humble opinion and with all due respect.
Thank you, otto.

Otto,

With all due respects to your HEHE. I take it from your question that you believe beyond a doubt that you have some friends that fit into the above category. For instance you know that the Spirit of God is working in them. That is certainly alright with me if that is your belief.

But I am wondering if on that great day when you stand before your maker and He lets you know that what you thought was His Spirit working in some of them in actuality was not, what will your response be? There was an elder brother that Jesus spoke about who was very unset with his Father because he had never killed the fatted calf and shared it with his friends. I have pondered a lot as to why he even thought that the Father should be sharing his bread with them, but the facts were he had not. Interesting contrast with the prodigal who though unwilling for a time never lost the understanding that there was bread in his Father's house. We don't read of him feeling that any of his new friends in the far country should just come back with him and receive bread from his Father. He seemed to understand that the Father's provision was in the Father's house.

It would be good to be taken up with working out our own salvation instead of trying to figure out and forming opinions of how many of our personal friends are going to make it to heavens shore.

delh

[otto2]

[/quote]

Otto,

With all due respects to your HEHE. I take it from your question that you believe beyond a doubt that you have some friends that fit into the above category. For instance you know that the Spirit of God is working in them. That is certainly alright with me if that is your belief.

But I am wondering if on that great day when you stand before your maker and He lets you know that what you thought was His Spirit working in some of them in actuality was not, what will your response be? There was an elder brother that Jesus spoke about who was very unset with his Father because he had never killed the fatted calf and shared it with his friends. I have pondered a lot as to why he even thought that the Father should be sharing his bread with them, but the facts were he had not. Interesting contrast with the prodigal who though unwilling for a time never lost the understanding that there was bread in his Father's house. We don't read of him feeling that any of his new friends in the far country should just come back with him and receive bread from his Father. He seemed to understand that the Father's provision was in the Father's house.

It would be good to be taken up with working out our own salvation instead of trying to figure out and forming opinions of how many of our personal friends are going to make it to heavens shore.

delh
[/quote]

Hello again delh,
My hehe in replying to Nathan was simply an inward chuckle to myself as I found myself almost admiring his remarkable ability to sidestep the question without actually appearing as though he had done so. It was not as you portrayed a HEHE big laugh either mocking or otherwise.

But no matter, at least we know where you stand, you have left us in no doubt that you believe God to be working within the 2x2s alone, and it is the devil who is the master behind all other churches; and it will not be you who stands confused and bewildered before God on that Great Day.

We all have to make a judgement in the here & now as to who we believe has the Spirit of God within them; and we look to them, as well as to The Lord through prayer, to teach and guide and to set an example of how we should live, according to the teachings of the bible. It is rather surprising delh, to find you pouring scorn on looking to others as an example, when living as an example would be one of the mainstays of the 2x2 church. You yourself would seek every day to be an example to others; and it would be your fervent wish and prayer that they would see something in your life that was different, and that they would seek further as to what it was that made you so, and that they would say in due course "let thy God be my God; and thy people my people". This method is the central plank of the 2x2 system of evangelism; and 'though it has been less than successful for you; you should not pour scorn on those who are.

I believe you have misinterpreted the parable of the Prodigal Son.
I do not believe you should flatter yourselves that the 2x2s represent the Father in this case. If that were true; then who is the elder brother? The Father has always been the Father, He is God; and that is so in this case too. And who is the elder brother?
It is you delh, you and the rest of the 2x2s! You have worked out your salvation diligently with honest toil and application. You have not strayed from your work; and you believe that this is the only way you can reap your reward. But the Father is the Father, and he will welcome those who return to Him. They do not have to seek the approval of the elder brother first.

I have indeed been to the far off country seeking wealth and pleasure; and popularity and success, and I have come up short!
I have returned to the Father; and he has welcomed me with open arms, and do you know what delh? the elder brother 2x2s do not approve, they do not recognise me as their brother.

You should read again those passages in Luke 15. The elder brother says in v30 'But when this son of yours' etc etc, he would not acknowledge the prodigal as his brother, he referred to him as 'this son of yours'. And what was the Fathers reply? 'But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found'.

You may not recognise me as your brother delh; but I recognise you as mine.

[delh]

My dear Otto,

You seemed to be obsessed with putting each of us in your little bins. Where did I say that this group that you call the 2x2's is the Fathers house? Read carefully what I have said. I did not say that you were the elder brother, but I simply was trying to point out that each of us need to understand that we are not the final judge on who has entered into the Fathers house and who has not, and if we really think that we do know, that on that day we will be surprised to find out we didn't know all that we thought that we did.

As I think this thread has pointed out we all need to try the spirits. You seem to feel that you have done that and have identified your brothers. I feel that I have done the same. I can't sit here and say your judgment is wrong, because I really don't know those who you are calling your brother. You on the other hand seem to know those who I feel are my brothers and find them lacking. If you ask me to judge my brother, I need a lot more information. If you ask me to love my brother, I have all the information I need.

I like many have experienced loving and having fellowship with brothers and sisters, who later have turned aside and become prodigals, loving the world and all it holds out. I have felt the hurt for their decisions, but it has not shaken my faith in God and His workings in a life. I can still understand that His Spirit once worked in their life but they chose to end the relationship. When I see them repent and come back to the Father (don't read come back to the 2x2's -- I am ahead of your thinking?) I will rejoice with the angels in heaven and the Father.

delh

[otto2]

Hi delh,
Thanks for your reply.
I don't think I can disagree with anything in your last post. It could be that I'm misjudjing you as an exclusive 2x2 and perhaps you're not. I had thought that that was your position; in that only the 2x2s are saved. This is the view of my own family and a lot of the 2x2s I come across. They won't come right out and say that of course; but it is clear from their actions that that is what they believe.( Some 2x2 posters on Truth Meetings Board have no such inhibitions!) It is my belief (possibly wrongly!) that Nathan is in this category; but he tries desparately hard not to be pinned down into actually saying so.
I think that the people who hold to this view would be accurately represented by the elder brother in the parable. If I have wrongly grouped you in this camp; you have my apologies.

As you have stated in earlier posts, there are tares growing amongst the wheat; and the 2x2s are not immune to that. That would be the same in our church, and I can only seek and hope and pray that I am not numbered amongst them. There are many churches that do not appear to have God within them at all; but I have discovered that (contrary to the beliefs of my family) there are sincere believers, not only in the 2x2s; but in the Evangelicals, the Baptists and the Pentecostals (and I daresay others I have not come across)who appear to be motivated by the right Spirit, and bear fruit commensurate with that Spirit, but that would not necessarily include every attender of those churches.

Although I am in my middle years, I am but a baby in terms of spiritual growth. When I think of Ecclesiastes 12:1 "Remember your Creator in the days of your youth, before the days of trouble come, and the years approach when you will say "I find no pleasure in them". I am grateful that although I did not remember my creator in my youth, I am glad I was caused to remember him before the years approach when surely I will say "I find no pleasure in them". (always assuming I am allowed to live that long!)

I believe my family are God's children, but I believe their exclusive position; and the exclusiveness of some of the teaching within the 2x2 church to be misguided. It is why I feel unable to join them.

Whilst we are Human and on this Earth I guess there will always be disagreements amongs believers; but I hope we will be able to see it as 1Corinthians 12:4-6 "There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men".

Thank you for the exchange delh. I am sorry if I come across as antagonistic. I hope and pray the day will come when all 2x2s will consider people like me to be their brother.
Best wishes
Otto

PS: In case I am the one responsible,apologies to all for the drifting of the thread!

[delh]

Otto wrote:
There are many churches that do not appear to have God within them at all; but I have discovered that (contrary to the beliefs of my family) there are sincere believers, not only in the 2x2s; but in the Evangelicals, the Baptists and the Pentecostals (and I daresay others I have not come across)who appear to be motivated by the right Spirit, and bear fruit commensurate with that Spirit, but that would not necessarily include every attender of those churches.
I believe my family are God's children, but I believe their exclusive position; and the exclusiveness of some of the teaching within the 2x2 church to be misguided. It is why I feel unable to join them.


The above is to me the danger of holding to the doctrine that OTHERS who are exclusive in their beliefs pertaining to the things of God are wrong, and because we are not so exclusive it is somehow a virtue to us. Stating that an exclusive position is misguided and a reason to exclude ourselves from fellowship with them belies the fact that we are all quite exclusive in our beliefs. Anyone who belongs to a denominational Christian Church has made a choice of where and with whom he will fellowship. If not why pass up several other churches on their way to the denomination they have joined? I was raised in a denomination Church, and can understand the rather strong feelings of how the other denominations error in their teachings. We find some with a more ecumenical Christian bent, and they, like Otto, are more open to the possibility of some or a few of the others in some of the denominations are all right. And then we find some who are even more ecumenical and they believe a few or some in ANY religion, Christian or not, are all right. We all if we are honest with ourselves DRAW THE LINE SOMEWHERE.

Some may believe that Jesus teaching do not encourage us to be non- exclusive. Indeed that seems to be the problem with some of the Churches in revelations ---They were very non-exclusive to the point that anything and every body was all right. Non-exclusivity is not necessarily a virtue. Those words, Come out from among them and be ye separate saith the Lord and I will receive you and will be a Father unto you---speaks of the need to separate ourselves from some. Jesus words -- By this shall all men know ye are my disciples by the love you have one to another--speaks of a pretty close knit fellowship among the believers. Sad if we really believe that God does not have the power to make this happen in the world(read in our little area of the world) today because men are so prone to go their separate ways.

Otto, you say because of your parents beliefs you feel unable to join them and those who they worship with. That sounds like you are being a bit exclusive to me? Would you not agree that exclusivity goes both ways? Which comes first the chicken or the egg?

delh

[selah]

Hi delh....I think the motivation is the important factor. It's true that I prefer to worship with like-minded people; I guess you could say I am excluding others to choose these ones to fellowship with. But, that exclusion is not one that says, "You are outside of the Kingdom." It simply says, "I don't agree with some of your practices, and/or prefer these ones over here."

The churches that are motivated to exclude, because of their opinion that only they are rightfully allowed in the Kingdom, define what I mean when I speak of exclusivity.

In a sense I am exclusive in that way too, because I believe one must have the indwelling Spirit to even see into the Kingdom (spiritual realm)...but I believe there are many in various groups, religions etc. who DO have that Spirit. I just don't limit it to one denomination.....and in some cases not even to one religion.

Blessings,
Linda

[delh]

Nov 24, 2008 13:35:29 GMT -5 selah said:

Hi delh....I think the motivation is the important factor. It's true that I prefer to worship with like-minded people; I guess you could say I am excluding others to choose these ones to fellowship with. But, that exclusion is not one that says, "You are outside of the Kingdom." It simply says, "I don't agree with some of your practices, and/or prefer these ones over here."

The churches that are motivated to exclude, because of their opinion that only they are rightfully allowed in the Kingdom, define what I mean when I speak of exclusivity.

In a sense I am exclusive in that way too, because I believe one must have the indwelling Spirit to even see into the Kingdom (spiritual realm)...but I believe there are many in various groups, religions etc. who DO have that Spirit. I just don't limit it to one denomination.....and in some cases not even to one religion.

Blessings,
Linda

Hi Linda, Nice to hear from you. I feel it is fine to speak of others being exclusive as long as we realize that it is something we all do, some more, some less. When we get into motivations of others, we enter into a pretty gray area. Solomon said we don't even understand our own hearts, so it is pretty hard to presume we understand where another is coming from. You speak of churches that are motivated to exclude, because of their opinion. I am not sure motivation has any thing to do with it. When we form an opinion about something, either through revelation or human thinking, we generally act on it. As you say you prefer to worship with like minded people. There is certainly nothing wrong with that. Because of your preference, you then form an opinion about who those people are, and then you fellowship with them. Now you could have a whole variety of opinions about all of the rest who you have decided not to have fellowship with, or most probably you don't even know most of them well enough to form an opinion about them. I believe most of us are in the latter category. We really don't have enough information about those outside of our fellowship group to form an opinion about them. But just like you, we do run across some who are not like minded and have no desire to fellowship with us. If they have no desire to fellowship with us do we say we excluded them or do we say they excluded themselves? It's not in motivation, it is how we look at it.

delh

[BXKJK7S]

Hi delh,
Just to avoid confusion as to exactly where I'm at, I would say that I am exclusive insofar as; Salvation is the exclusive right of people who know that it is Jesus Christ who saves them. They have comprehended the enormity of the sacrifice that has been made on their behalf, and they are overcome with gratitude for that fact. Their lives have been changed as a result of that comprehension, and they have ceased to live for themselves, knowing as they do that everything they have comes from God. They have become burdened with helping others who are less fortunate than themselves; they look to people in their neighbourhood and further afield by doing, and contributing to charitable works, and in some cases missionary work.
They have understood what Paul said to the Romans (12:2) 'Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind'. They understand that this is not referring to having TVs or to dress codes etc, but means do not set your hope on earthly things like money or possessions or popularity, but use what you have for the advancement of the kingdom, because everything you have comes from God.
I believe there are people like this in many denominations but that would not include everyone in those denominations.

Unfortunately the exclusiveness of my family is different. They go further than this and say NO NO! that is not good enough, that's just the ideas of men! What you must to to do the work God requires is to go 2x2 and have meetings in the home. If you do not do these things you have not understood the gospel and you will not be saved.

It's not a case of me not wishing to fellowship with them, it's a case of them being unwilling to fellowship with me because I am unable to conform to their particular exclusive beliefs.

[otto2]

For the further avoidance of confusion, the last post was mine!

[selah]

Hi again delh,

I agree, we cannot know the motivation of others, unless of course, they tell us ( in as much as they can know their own motivations). I wouldn't pretend to know what is anyone's heart, but if he freely explains his reasons for excluding me (or vice versa), that's what we have to go on.

I'm sure that when one moves on, those left behind feel as though they have been excluded by that one, but the one leaving could be only leaving because there has been rejection directed toward him.

Case in point - The main reasons I left the meetings were:

1. My desire to recognize Christ in other believers outside the f&w was not acceptable to the f&w in my area. In other words, it was not allowed.

2. No one would have a reasonable, indepth look at the scripture with me concerning the teachings of the Holy Spirit, or anything else for that matter. I was just TOLD what to believe, and some of those things were hard for me to reconcile with the scripture. When I asked for help, I was belittled.

That there were some differences of opinion over non-essential issues would never have been enough for me to move on. That happens everywhere. I wanted to stay. I loved the meetings and the people. My heart was there. I still grieve for the loss, although I have found much love and joy among other believers.

Although I left the f&w meetings, I have never felt they are not my brethren...at least those who have the indwelling Spirit (which, of course is not my place to determine, nor is it theirs). Yet, it has been made absolutely clear that I am no longer considered by them to be related to them in Christ.

Taking all that into consideration, I have concluded: I left the meetings, but did not reject my brethren. The only reason they are excluded from me, is because THEY have drawn the line. In their eyes, I am not one of God's children. ("They" doesn't mean every single f&w, because I don't know every single one, and I realize in some areas things are quite different from other areas.) Who excluded who?

It's always my desire that one day we'll be able to see one another as His children, even though we have differences. We are united by His Spirit, based on our new spiritual birth. A unity based on conformity causes division.

Blessings,
Linda