selah
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Post by selah on Dec 6, 2008 3:04:30 GMT -5
Perhaps you are equating one man, Paul, with the many workers?? Workers are actually part of a much larger network of gospel ministers, but they have chosen to separate themselves from the rest. Unfortunately, in so doing, a system of mediation has evolved. Most exclusive religious groups have the same characteristic...their ministry becomes the focus of their gospel (good news).
1 Timothy 2:5 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Of course we all love those who brought the gospel to us, but for MANY it wasn't the workers, but other gospel ministers outside of the f&w.
The gospel ministry still labors together and works together for the good of the believers that they move among, even crossing denominational lines. They also refer to one another as fellow laborers, fellow workers etc. I've been among them...witnessed this...enjoyed it. I know of a prayer meeting that happens every Tuesday morning which includes pastors and ministers from various denominations. They come together to pray, because they are laboring together for Christ.
This still happens, not just in the f&w. In every church I've attended since leaving the meetings we've had gatherings in which we each did just as it says in 1 Corinthians 14. No human beings are perfect...neither are those in other churches, but they are growing together also. 10Now if Timotheus come, see that he may be with you without fear: for he worketh the work of the Lord, as I also do.
I heard something very similar said when a Pentecostal pastor introduced ministers of the Presbyterian, Catholic, Anglican and other churches when they were about to speak in the Pentecostal church.
19The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.
We receive greetings like this from various ministers and groups, even from other countries. I'm thinking of the Messianic believers in Israel, who send us word concerning the work of the Lord there. They are not all of the same fellowship group, but they and we are all one in Christ.
No need to apologize dehl. It's okay if we disagree.
I think it's okay if we differ on this. When I think of Jesus teaching and example, I am not thinking of the method of ministry, but of His teaching concerning the Heavenly Kingdom and how He demonstrated it by His love and mercy that goes beyond that of human love and mercy. I'm glad for any way to get that message to others. Of course the f&w also want to share the message of Christ's love and mercy, and they include the style of ministry and fellowship as part of God's requirements. I just don't see that part as a requirement. I did at one time though, so I do understand that way of thinking.
Many of the things they did in the 1st century were done for specific reasons that were relevent to what was happening at that time. I feel we must weigh things to determine if they were an all-time commandment, or a culture/time-specific practice. Obviously we disagree on this concerning the method of ministry and fellowship.
2 Corinthians 11: 4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
If someone comes preaching, but is not doing it the f&w way, I don't think that means they are preaching another Jesus. When one preaches Jesus, they are not preaching a ministry, but a Saviour. If one comes to me preaching something other than Christ as my salvation, then he is preaching another Jesus.
It's true these were ones who did not accept Paul's style of ministry, but that's not what made them false apostles. False apostles are those who have transformed themselves, rather than being transformed by the Holy Spirit. They may bring a certain gospel, but without the indwelling Spirit, it is a different gospel.
Yes, and this is true among all churches today, including the f&w church. There will always be some who "seem" to be ministers of Christ, but they are still just ministering their own ideas of what that means. These can be found in ANY church group. The fact that they were found among the 1st century believers is a good indicator that they will still be found today among the f&w and other denominations too. We're all still just people.
Was it the "correct ministry" they found no need of, or was it the power of the indwelling Spirit they were rejecting? Being false apostles, I would suspect it was the latter. I know they literally were finding fault with Paul's ministry, but why? They thought they could diminish the power in him, by attacking his methods, but the power of the Spirit goes far beyond methods.
17For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
We can read the writings of Paul to learn of his "ways." He shares a lot with us...some is about method and ministry.....but most is about sharing and living Christ among others.
I guess we will have to simply agree to disagree, dehl. I'm not really trying to convince you, as much as I'm just glad that you at least listened and considered my point of view. Thank you.
Blessings, Linda
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delh
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Post by delh on Dec 8, 2008 13:35:46 GMT -5
My intent was not to equate one man Paul with anyone. I was just trying to put the scriptures that you quoted into proper context. namely that what Paul was dealing with in the Corinthian passages that you quoted had nothing to do with the ecumenical slant that you were trying to put on the verses you quoted. The ecumenical approach is to try to get the clergy and lay people from different denominational belief systems to come to some compromise where they can agree to disagree and then go their separate ways. There was no such thing going on in the Corinthian church that Paul was dealing with. they were separating themselves into separate factions within the church, with a bit of pride sprinkled in and he flat out told them what they were doing was wrong. It is a beautiful example of having our affections in the proper order. That and nothing more. To say that because we believe in a ministry similar to what Paul lived and preached is the common mark of an exclusive group is some what disingenuous. And to further say that the ministry than is the focus of the gospel story is a large leap and untrue. It is quite possible to have the proper order in believing that Jesus is the whole gospel story and that ALL that he taught and lived is not only part of that gospel story but is ALL essential to our coming to know and love and follow him.
When Jesus came to the earth he came to do the Father's will. He said I can do nothing by myself but only what I hear from the Father. Jesus prayed earnestly before sending forth the first 12 apostles. He could have easily spread the gospel to all who would receive him without a ministry. After all he was the Son of God. He could have called 12 legions of angles to spread the gospel. We don't know why he chose to do it the way he did, but we do know it was according to his Father's will. He could have sent them forth in a thousand different ways, and I am sure many could come up with reasons of why other ways would have worked even better to reach the masses in that day with their customs, but he didn't send them in different ways. We all today can come up with a thousand different ways to follow Jesus in preaching the gospel, but it is all based on our own perspective of what we should do and has nothing to do with what he said or taught when he sent forth a ministry. That he desires for there to be a ministry today can not be in question because he asked us to each pray that the Lord of the harvest would send forth laborers into his harvest field. He was not speaking here of every disciple going forth, but those like Paul who had addicted themselves to the ministry.
Linda, why are you so quick to conclude that when I quote a scripture like this that I am saying that anyone "preaching, but is not doing it the f&w way" is preaching another Jesus? Did I say that? All that I am trying to bring out by this scripture is simply what Paul is saying that there are those in the world who are "preaching another Jesus". It is the same in our days. We need to be aware that it is happening or else we must believe that NO one is preaching another Jesus, and thus ALL preachers are good and doing the will of God. I don't think from what you have said in the past that you believe that? Or maybe you do?
Really? How do you separate out that they were not accepting Paul's style of ministry and they had transformed themselves. Seems to me that if they did not accept Paul's style of ministry they then had to come up with another style of ministry which would transform them into being preachers of the gospel. There were several that did accept Paul's style of ministry and became companions with him and they were transformed by the Holy Spirit in to being apostles.
The verses I quoted were not about the false apostles not accepting them, it was about the friends them selves feeling superior to Paul and the true ministry. That is what is so sad about those verses. If they truly had the indwelling Spirit they would have had a different attitude.
I would agree except to say Paul shares a lot about method and ministry and it doesn't distract in anyway from his living Christ before us.
delh
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selah
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Post by selah on Dec 10, 2008 15:17:03 GMT -5
Hello again...
The ideal is to have unity. God desires it, and we do too, but both He and we know we are still human and absolute unity is quite impossible, this side of heaven. It was in Paul's day too. The church at Antioch and the church at Jerusalem had some vast differences. They were able to come to terms with those differences at the council at Jerusalem when it was decided that it would be best to relieve believers of so much legalism. In other words, the Messianic believers could still continue their practices, but it would be outside the law of love to impose those practices as requirements upon the Gentile church. That sounds like a compromise to me. We know the disciples continued many traditions from Judaism even after Christ's ascension and the gift of the Holy Spirit. This was not wrong, but neither was it necessary for salvation.
It was wrong to "follow Apollos," and exclude the others, but was it wrong to have differing points of view? Paul and Barnabus strongly disagreed (albeit it was a personal disagreement), yet they were still brothers in the Lord. They simply went in different directions to accomplish the same thing....bring the message of Christ's atonement and the availability of the Kingdom...the message of LOVE. Nothing should get in the way of that.
I'm sorry if I said something in such a way that you came to this conclusion. I certainly don't believe that statement any more than you do. I meant to say that a common mark of an exclusive group is that a large part of their message has to do with their methods. They tend to elevate their ministry, traditions etc. by drawing frequent attention to them; sometimes at the expense of sharing the true good news.
I don't believe the ministry should be a focus of the gospel story. Perhaps in your area the f&w do not make it a focal point, but in my area they do. What I've stated is not a large leap at all, and it IS true. Many folks have been excommunicated (which f&w in our parts translate to losing their salvation) because they did not want to idolize the ministry. They were given an ultimatum...choose the ministry, or good-bye.
For some ALL that Jesus taught and lived is interpreted quite differently than for others. None of us seem to have a total grasp on what the full scope of ALL that Jesus taught and lived. In fact, some of the things you might believe He taught as requirements, I may believe He taught exactly the opposite about them. That's why there's such a need to love beyond our differences, and seek to love Him and each other in spite of them, while always seek more accurate truth together.
I think there's a very reasonable explanation for the way Jesus sent the disciples out in the first century. Perhaps we could open another thread for that discussion, so others would contribute their thoughts as well.
Just as Jesus prayed to the Father for His will in regard to His actions, so must we. Jesus died that we might have that privilege, but sometimes we reject it, thinking we must go back 2000 years and follow a pattern. Jesus is still alive! He's here right now! We can ask Him what to do. He doesn't always say the same thing. I could ask Him, "I am blind, what shall I do?" He might say, "Put mud on your eyes and wash in the pool of Siloam," or He might say, "Put spit on your eyes," or "Go, your faith has made you whole;" He might even say, "Go find a fellow believer, it doesn't have to be one in professional ministry, and ask him to pray for you." These are all different methods, but all coming from the same Saviour. I might ask, "How shall I share the good news of redemption today?" He might say, "Bring people to gospel meeting," or, "Become a worker, or a preacher," or simply "Just connect with people and love them." Does that mean the 2000 year-old pattern is obsolete? Not at all! But obviously some of the things Jesus did then, would not be done today. For example, we don't wash each other's feet anymore. It was a necessary custom of that era to wash your feet when coming inside. Jesus demonstrated what it means to serve one another. Today, we find other ways to accomplish the same thing. The message..."Serve others;" and likewise, "Share the good news of Christ and His Kingdom!"
All believers are called into full-time ministry, but that can take many forms. For some it is living Christ at home and in the workplace. For others, it is leaving the usual way of life to dedicate themselves fully to ministry, like full-time evangelists. And still others are called to function on more of a local level as pastors or elders. ALL are laborers in the harvest field.
I apologize delh for grouping you in with the many others who do see it this way. From all the f&w I've known, you and a few others are exceptions to the rule regarding this. I was literally taught by the workers and friends that anyone who is preaching differently from the f&w way, is preaching a different Jesus. I was taught to avoid them, because they were sent by Satan to destroy the work of God. I'm glad you do not believe this.
Absolutely, I totally agree. I'm sorry that I misunderstood where you were coming from.
Paul's primary opponents were Jews, who were determined to enforce the tenents of Judaism within the body of believers. These were still using the law and one's ability to adhere to it, to bring transformation to themselves and others. They sought to find fault with Paul's ministry in order to discredit him among the others, because his teaching drew attention the the work of the Spirit within us, which seemed to his antagonists to be a permissive gospel. They picked on surface issues, and Paul knew well what they were getting at; he was a Jew and at one time, a Pharisee. He knew that they were missing the important substance of transformation that could only come through the new birth of the Spirit. Any other transformation is self-transformation, and they were false apostles who continued to try and teach THAT kind of Jesus.
Yes, but it was not his style of ministry that brought the tranformation; it was the Holy Spirit indwelling them...right?
I have one more essay to complete, so I won't be able to respond again until sometime next week.
Blessings, Linda
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selah
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Post by selah on Dec 10, 2008 15:26:28 GMT -5
Except for this, which I forgot to include:
Are you referring to 2 Corinthians 11? It was about false apostles who were a part of the early Church, right? And yes, they did feel superior to Paul, because he was not continuing with the practices of Judaism, which they felt were necessary.
Amen.
Would you say that our salvation is dependent on what Paul says about method and ministry?
Blessings, Linda
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delh
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Post by delh on Dec 11, 2008 17:39:19 GMT -5
The verses I quoted were in 1Corinthians 4. They had nothing to do with false apostles but were said directly to the friends in the church who had set them selves above the apostles, feeling that they were wiser. It is where Paul mentions that we the apostles have no certain dwelling place.
All believers are called to be full-time disciples, and discipleship can take many forms I could agree with. The Lord wants us all to be useful and at his call day and night, but that does not mean that we don't have different offices to fill. It is recorded twice that Jesus asked that prayers be made for his sending forth laborers into his harvest field. Mathew 9: 37Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;
38Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest. This of course was just before he called the 12 from his disciples and separated them to be apostles to labor in his harvest field.
The second time it is recorded is in Luke 10, which he said to the 70 as he sent them forth to labor in his harvest field. Luke 10
1After these things the LORD appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
2Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
I put a very different meaning to the word ministry than you do. When I read what Paul was speaking about when he uses the word ministers, it is almost if not always referring to himself and his companions as opposed to the saints in the home. You seem to want to lump them together which only causes confusion when reading the bible. When you say ALL are laborers in the harvest field I hope you realize that you are using the term very contrary to the way Jesus himself used the term. If you are comfortable with that. So be it.
delh
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selah
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Post by selah on Dec 12, 2008 2:54:38 GMT -5
Oh, okay, that explains a little of the miscommunication. Yes, Paul's first letter to the Corinthians was dealing with the immaturity of the body of believers there. Many of the things he addressed, such as divisions, arrogance, immorality, false teaching, neglect of the poor etc. are common problems in the Church today too. Paul was rebuking them for their haughtiness, especially in comparing their service to that of the apostles. (apostles=those ones who went FIRST with the gospel message.)
When the apostles first went out, they were the few who believed. They had to endure so much hardship and few homes that would welcome them, because their teaching seemed to be so opposed to the Law. Today, of course the situation is quite different. The workers and other evangelists rarely have to forge through such difficulty, unless perhaps they are harvesting in tribal situations and third world countries or places that are sparsley populated with believers. For example: the workers usually stay in the homes of the friends. Many travelling evangelists stay in the homes of believers as well; some stay in hotels. The apostles had nowhere to stay at first, because there were no other believers, until some began to be numbered among them.
1 Peter 2:9 9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
Hebrews 10: 19-23 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. 23Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.
Hebrews 12:22-24 22But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
All believers are able to approach God directly. We all have access to the Holy of Holies. We are a "royal priesthood," and there is no separation of class in that regard. Each one has the privilege to come into the presence of God, and a responsibility to actively live out the result of that intimacy in all kinds of situations. Paul wrote of his activities with his companions in the special work of getting the whole "new way" going. Not everyone was called to do the work of an apostle or an evangelist, but all were called to the royal priesthood.
When Jesus asked the disciples to pray for laborers for the harvest field, there were indeed VERY few. Today there are still few in comparison to the whole world, but a multitude in comparison to the few Jesus sent out. Jesus, in His great commission commanded the disciples to go and make disciples of all nations....teaching them to obey everything He commanded them. One of the things He commanded them was to go and make disciples. So, they would teach the new disciples to make more disciples and so on, and so on. (disciple=student learning from his master.) These were not all evangelists, but they were disciples and were commanded to make more disciples based on Jesus' commission.
Matthew 28:19-20 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
Mark 16:15 15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
Jesus commanded that all His disciples would be taught to do this as well.
I do believe we have different functions and callings, but we are all part of the royal priesthood. We are all called to share the good news, and none of us is above another.
Blessings, Linda
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delh
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Post by delh on Dec 12, 2008 13:45:52 GMT -5
Linda, I am glad for your latest post because it gives me hope that we are not so far apart in our beliefs as I was beginning to think from some of your previous posts.
Very true observation. However the giving of oneself like Peter saying "Lord we have left all---", and Paul saying "we have no certain dwelling place" and Jesus saying "I the Son of man have not where to lay my head", all have the same cost of putting their lives completely in the Lord's hands. The conditions they all passed through may be very physically different from age to age, but the emotional side of completely trusting in God for their day to day sustenance is way beyond what I have personally given. I never want to look lightly on the sacrifices of others.
Agree
Linda I am sure you are well aware that the words of Jesus in Mathew 28 were spoken very specifically to the 11 disciples, Judas having already betrayed the Lord. You say they were not all evangelists?? Would you not agree that they were in fact the 11 apostles? There are many other verses in the bible that tell of how we should all try to live the Christ life before others and help to spread the gospel from faith to faith, but this is not one of them. This was not spoken to ALL disciples but to those who had been specifically called out from among his disciples, the 11, It then applied also to those who became companions with the 11 and so on. Matthew 28: 16Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
Mark 16:15 15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
agree
delh
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selah
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Post by selah on Dec 12, 2008 14:48:40 GMT -5
Hi delh,
Yes, Jesus was speaking to the 11, and these WERE evangelists. I was referring to the disciples the 11 made in obedience to Jesus' great commission, and then the disciples that were made by those newer disciples and so on.
I said, "These were not all evangelists, but they were disciples and were commanded to make more disciples based on Jesus' commission."
Disciples make more disciples; some become evangelists, some pastors or elders, some teachers etc. Some disciples, like me, may occasionally function as evangelists, pastors, teachers etc., but do not hold an office of such. However, ALL disciples have the mandate to go and share the gospel of Christ's love and atonement to the world, thus making more disciples.
It was spoken to the original 11, but the command itself testifies that it was a message to be perpetuated to ALL disciples, not just to those who were to become evangelists. It doesn't say that it would then be applied only to those who became evangelistic companions of the 11, at least I don't understand it that way. It says to make disciples and command them to make disciples.
Blessings, Linda
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delh
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Post by delh on Dec 13, 2008 20:20:03 GMT -5
Linda, If your understanding is right on Mathew 28, then ALL disciples have been commissioned to make disciples of all nations and to baptize them.
19"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
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selah
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Post by selah on Dec 14, 2008 2:44:49 GMT -5
Yes, I do believe that any born-again believer, by the power and testimony of the Spirit within him, has authority to baptize other believers. However, most of us are accustomed to a system that bestows that privilege only on the "leadership."
I think water baptism originated with the Jewish mikvah, a ceremonial cleansing bath. It is used as a purification ritual for new converts to Judaism and for other symbolic purposes as well.
Blessings, Linda
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delh
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Post by delh on Dec 14, 2008 3:53:06 GMT -5
Yes, I do believe that any born-again believer, by the power and testimony of the Spirit within him, has authority to baptize other believers. However, most of us are accustomed to a system that bestows that privilege only on the "leadership." I think water baptism originated with the Jewish mikvah, a ceremonial cleansing bath. It is used as a purification ritual for new converts to Judaism and for other symbolic purposes as well. Blessings, Linda Sp you believe baptizing others is a commandment to you from Jesus, but in practice you feel it is to be left to others? Interesting? delh
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selah
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Post by selah on Dec 14, 2008 12:58:05 GMT -5
I didn't say I feel it is to be left to others...I said most of us are accustomed to that approach.
Disciples have the mandate as a body of believers to continue making disciples, to baptize them and to teach them. Are all called to the office of evangelist, pastor, teacher? No, but there may be times when we are each called upon to evangelize, pastor, teach. Same with baptism. As a whole, the Church is called to operate by the leading of the Spirit in each individual to accomplish the great commission.
Blessings, Linda
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delh
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Post by delh on Dec 15, 2008 13:12:48 GMT -5
I didn't say I feel it is to be left to others...I said most of us are accustomed to that approach. Disciples have the mandate as a body of believers to continue making disciples, to baptize them and to teach them. Are all called to the office of evangelist, pastor, teacher? No, but there may be times when we are each called upon to evangelize, pastor, teach. Same with baptism. As a whole, the Church is called to operate by the leading of the Spirit in each individual to accomplish the great commission. Blessings, Linda Well Linda it would seem that we have almost made it full circle on this one. The specific verses in Mathew 28 were definitely spoken to the eleven apostles. To that I hope we both agree. The eleven apostles were previously commissioned by Jesus to go forth and preach the kingdom of heaven. They were asked to baptize, they were asked to feed the lambs and the sheep, to teach and nurture. In Mathew 28 they were asked to continue on with what they had learned to do as they had been with Jesus and followed Jesus in his ministry. the one exception was that now they were to take the gospel to the whole world. He didn't ask them to take this new step without him, but promised he would continue be with them. They were to teach others as he had taught them. At first you said this commission which you called the great commission (a term coined by some religions in the world) was for ALL disciples. When that did not fit the verses, in particular about baptism, you changed it to something written to the whole church, but only some would be called upon to fulfill it at any given time. I would assert that the vast majority of the members of the church will never in their lifetime be called upon by the Spirit to fulfill these verses, because these verses were never intended for them. On the contrary those who have been called out ot the body of disciples into the ministry and asked to follow Jesus as he went forth in the ministry will be led by the Spirit to fulfill these verses as well as many others that were specifically meant for them. Unless we realize that Jesus spoke to three separate classes of individuals throughout his ministry we will be very confused as we read. He spoke to sinners, to disciples, and to those called out into the ministry. From what you have written in the past, you do not like to hear of any difference between a disciple and a minister ( I believe your words were none is above another). The difference is something Jesus did. He separated out from his disciples and appointed apostles, he sent out the seventy. And of course you are right, it isn't that one is above another but that they each serve one another realizing the different places God has placed them in. John could praise Gaius because he was helping in the spread of the gospel by helping those who were going forth with the gospel. 6Which have borne witness of thy charity before the church: whom if thou bring forward on their journey after a godly sort, thou shalt do well:
7Because that for his name's sake they went forth, taking nothing of the Gentiles.delh
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selah
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Post by selah on Dec 16, 2008 0:45:34 GMT -5
Yes, I do call it a great commission. It is a commission and it is great! The only "religion" in the world that I know of that refers to this as the great commission is Christianity. Islam, Judaism, Buddism etc. usually do not use that phrase. That Christianity DOES use that phrase, does not somehow make it wrong or inappropriate, does it? You didn't say that, but it seems implied by your mention of it. Perhaps I'm mistaken in your intent. Your group uses the word "convention," and I see nothing wrong with that, yet Jesus didn't use it.
The great commission IS for ALL disciples...not just for preachers. That interpretation DOES fit with the verses. I was not trying to make it fit when in discussion about baptism. The great commission IS given to the Church as a whole, which is comprised of ALL disciples. Yes, there are different offices in the Church, but all believers empowered by the Spirit of God have the ability to do whatever He asks them to do. As I said before, some evangelize, some teach, some pastor etc. But the commission was given to ALL believers. Perhaps it's just that you believe He would not ask a regular disciple to baptise, and I'm not convinced He wouldn't. I've witnessed situations where He has.
The passage needs to be understood in context with the whole message of the bible. Other verses point out that some are specifically called to do some things, while others are called to do other things. I still maintain that every believer is called to share the gospel and to baptise, if called upon to do so. Yes, some are called to full-time evangelistic ministry, while others are not.
There is certainly NO difference between a disciple and a minister. ALL ministers are disciples, and ALL disciples are ministers in one way or another. It is a matter of semantics, I guess. I agree that not ALL disciples minister in the same way, and I think I've repeated myself enough about that to be clear.
I want to clarify that when I raise objections to what you say, it is because I genuinely see it a different way, and I'm simply putting forth my point of view. It isn't a matter of "not wanting to hear" or changing my view slightly to make it fit with the verses.
I want to get to the truth, and sometimes sharing our different understandings helps to accomplish that. While I may not agree with you, you're entitled to your point of view. Thanks for sharing it, and thanks for hearing mine.
Blessings, Linda
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selah
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Post by selah on Dec 16, 2008 1:07:32 GMT -5
Jesus spoke to all kinds of people...all were sinners...some were Apostles, the first disciples who began the spread of the gospel, others were new disciples won to the Lord through the testimonies of the first ones, and so it continued until today. When we believe, we are given the opportunity to receive gifts from the Spirit that empower us to carry out the work of the commission Jesus gave us. While some will evangelize, others will pastor, some will have the gift of hospitality etc. etc. etc. I do not see separate classes, only different giftings. When these gifts are brought together, the Church as a whole functions as a body, all parts working together. You see different classes, I see different gifts and functions.
Blessings, Linda
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