delh
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Post by delh on Nov 25, 2008 13:07:21 GMT -5
Linda,
Thank you for your clear message of where you are coming from. It helps me to understand some of your feelings toward those of us who are enjoying a fellowship together which some like yourself feel excluded from. I have to accept your explanation of why you left the fellowship meetings even though you say you loved them. I always thought we followed what we love more than what we believe. Perhaps the reasons you gave for leaving were things you loved more than the fellowship with the f&w? Your reasons: Case in point - The main reasons I left the meetings were:
1. My desire to recognize Christ in other believers outside the f&w was not acceptable to the f&w in my area. In other words, it was not allowed.
2. No one would have a reasonable, indepth look at the scripture with me concerning the teachings of the Holy Spirit, or anything else for that matter. I was just TOLD what to believe, and some of those things were hard for me to reconcile with the scripture. When I asked for help, I was belittled.
I can understand that if you met someone outside the f&w who was a help to you in your relationship with God that you would naturally recognize them as such. I am sure many of the f&w have had such feelings toward others. Perhaps it never surfaces as a big deal because it is their personal feelings and personal relationship with that person, and not something that many know about. I am not suggesting that they are trying to hide this from others, but they understand that the person has a desire to be friends with them, but no desire to fellowship with the f&w generally -- so they just carry on and are friends with them, not pushing that others accept their new friend or that the new friend accept the f&w's. Of course once you begin to make more and more contacts with people such as this then I can see how it could lead to a situation where you would rather fellowship with your new like-minded friends rather than continue to fellowship with the f&W's.
To me it is a given that for this to happen, there has to be one major change in the beliefs that you were raised with. Within the f&w's, there are some who feel very strongly that God has called them to be laborers in his harvest field. They have answered that call and go forth in the manner in which they strongly believe he has asked them to go. Most of the friends feel just as strongly that when God calls his laborers forth that they will be following the teachings and example of Jesus, and therefore feel a special kinship with the workers. That special kinship must disappear and we must feel that they are going forth in error.
Most f&w's do not necessarily believe that everyone must be in fellowship with them BEFORE God begins to work with them and draw them to Himself. The eyes of the Spirit are always going to and fro seeking. But they do have a hard time believing that once a person in whom God is working is brought into contact with the f&w's that they will not recognize them as such and want to have fellowship with them. Many scriptures support this thinking, but the one that often comes to mind is in John 10:16 -- And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I MUST bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be ONE fold, and one shepherd. Also many scriptures in Johns letters support this thinking. How can we say we know God when we don't know those in whom God is dwelling? Thus many can live isolated lives in the world and still have the Spirit of God working in them and directing their lives, but two people in whom the Spirit of God is dwelling will recognize that Spirit in the other. It is something that Jesus has promised that he MUST do.
Linda, I am sorry to hear you say that no one would have a reasonable in depth look at the scripture with you. That is so contrary to my experience that I find it shocking. There is no excuse for this as long as you were openly seeking to discuss the scriptures and not seeking to tell others the error of their ways? I am sure that was not your case.
I often think of that verse -- Great peace have they who love thy law and nothing shall offend them. I liked what we heard about the Church at Ephesus and those who had lost their first love. When we lose our first love, we begin to just become critical of the brethren and find fault in all they believe and do.
I personally don't believe the majority of f&w's are seeking for conformity with one another, they are simply seeking submission to the Will of God.
Delh
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selah
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Post by selah on Nov 25, 2008 14:56:21 GMT -5
Thank you delh for your thoughtful message. It is VERY appreciated. I want to respond, and likely will later today, if I can. Term papers and exams...you know. But, I just wanted to say thank you. Your effort here is meaningful and valuable.
Blessings, Linda
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selah
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Post by selah on Nov 25, 2008 19:38:34 GMT -5
Hi delh,
When I speak of believe, I don't mean just what I understand in my head. I'm speaking of my trust in God and the direction of His Spirit. That belief includes my love of God, which of necessity must come before anything else, including any particular church or fellowhship.
Not other "things," but God, Himself. I could not continue in good conscience to adhere to the "rule" of rejecting others who believe. I chose to trust Him rather than the fellowship, a choice I didn't want to make, but had to.
The choice I made to leave meetings had nothing to do with a preference to fellowship with other like-minded friends. I had no desire to go to another church whatsoever. I preferred to meet with the f&w, but remaining in the meetings caused me to be conflicted between loyalty to God and loyalty to their belief system. I was not permitted to be true to my convictions while in the meetings.
I had no objection at all for the workers to go out as they do, or for the friends to meet as they do. In fact, I admire it. My objection had more to do with rejecting and mocking others because they don't do it the same way. And for stating that it is the ONLY way God approves.
It's not that I wouldn't WANT to have fellowship with them, but that I must conform to THEIR view in order for that to happen. At the same time, as much as I can accept we have different views, it becomes unbearable to be exposed to harsh judgements against others. I have experienced something similar in another church, and have excused myself from fellowshipping there too.
The ONE fold in this passage is referring to believers coming together from both the Jews and the Gentiles. God chose to manifest Himself to the world through the Jews...the fold. But, in the new covenant, ALL believers whether Jew or Gentile are welcomed into the fold. If this passage is spirtualized out of its context, then all other passages must be treated the same way. I'm sure you remember the "grafted in" passages in Romans, I'm sure. That too refers to Jews and Gentiles....not f&w and the rest of the world.
The one fold, or one body of believers includes ALL who have been born again by the Spirit of the living God. There is no one denomination/fellowship or one ethnicity anymore. We are united in the bond of the Spirit, rather than by lineage or codes.
That IS the question. We must learn to trust Christ's work in others as much as we trust Him in ourselves. If we reject those who trust Him, something has gone askew, right? And that brings us back to who draws the line?
If I had remained in the meetings, it was just a matter of time before I would have been asked to leave. My views were changing, but I was not free to share the truths I was discovering in the scripture.
I agree, as long as what they are looking for is not clouded by a preconceived idea. If we allow God to connect us as His children by His Spirit, we will recognize the Christ in each other. But, if we attach other identifiers besides His Spirit within, we could miss each other. eg. I'm meeting my natural brother, who I haven't met, at the train. I'm certain he'll be wearing the family crest. I pass right by him, but miss him, because he isn't wearing the crest. Is he still my brother? What makes him my brother? Our blood-line. Another man could wear the crest and NOT be my brother at all. God's children are related by the Spirit, not by outward appearance or groupings.
Thank you delh...at first I was not seeking to tell of the errors I saw. I wanted to understand why we didn't agree. What was I missing? Obviously the workers knew more than me, I thought. That's why I went to them for help. But later, when they would not hear of my concerns, I did begin to remark about the error. By then though, I was not attending meetings anymore.
I totally agree. My first love is my heavenly Father, above and beyond everything else, including fellowships, churches, belief systems etc. etc. He alone is worthy of that kind of devotion. It's easy to let other things...even good things, like methods...get in the way of that first love, and when that happens the result can be exactly as you have stated.
I think that is true also, but when we believe His will requires that kind of conformity, it is quite understandable that we will, out of our love for Him, do what we believe He requires. That's what I did when I was in the meetings. I totally believed I was doing what He required, and I was happy, privileged, glad to do it...until He instructed me otherwise; and since my desire was to please Him, I had no choice but to change.
Thanks for listening. I'm sorry for the length of this post. I have written in a very straight-forward way, and I hope you will recognize no offense is intended; I am just stating what happened.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by otto2 on Nov 26, 2008 3:42:32 GMT -5
I have no wish to break in on this exchange, but I wish to thank you Linda for your posts. You are expressing my own thoughts and beliefs in a way that is seemingly impossible for me. You are a mature Christian, and there is wisdom and gentleness in your posts. I thank you for them. otto
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selah
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Post by selah on Nov 26, 2008 13:50:10 GMT -5
Hi otto2, You are very gracious, and you have much better manners than me, since it was me who interrupted your conversation with delh!! Blessings, Linda
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delh
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Post by delh on Dec 1, 2008 13:52:05 GMT -5
Linda, First of all, I want to thank you for your lengthy answer to my questions. I have pondered what you said for some time, and would have to admit that I am somewhat confused. Probably just my inability to comprehend all that you have experienced.
I will try to state what is confusing to me. First if I understand you correctly, you were happily going to meetings and in fellowship, when God spoke to you that what the friends believed was wrong and not according to his will, so you felt compelled to change and no longer believe what you had once believed. Second you say that you have never rejected the f&w's as brethren and feel for the most part at least that they still are your brethren. Third it would seem despite what you say about not rejecting them that you did in fact stop going to meeting and I would assume let them know why you could no longer meet with them in good conscience because God had told you what they believed to be wrong? At this point it would seem to me that your actions speak a lot louder then your words about not rejecting them?
You stated "I had no objection at all for the workers to go out as they do, or for the friends to meet as they do. In fact, I admire it. My objection had more to do with rejecting and mocking others because they don't do it the same way. And for stating that it is the ONLY way God approves."
First of all not being in the particular group that you met with I can not say in what ways or how often they "rejected and mocked others", but I would be totally surprised if there was much of it going on during the meetings? Perhaps in private conversations? Could you explain to me how what they were doing in stating that what they were doing is the ONLY way God approves differs from your own beliefs that what you are doing is somehow what God approves but what they are doing is something God disapproves? Is the only difference the word ONLY. Linda I am sure there are many things done in the name of religion that you strongly believe to be contrary to what God believes. Is stating that wrong? By the way, in all of the above, I do not personally believe that there are very many people that I know of who would say what I am doing is the ONLY way that God approves of it being done. There may be certain aspects of what we believe that fit into that category. -- like we must be born again -- we must die daily-- Christ in you the hope of Glory --- We must believe on Jesus etc etc.
We all meet with those who are at various stages in their growth in Christ. Just because some don't fully comprehend all that Christ is to them or to others only means we desire to be there more so that we can possibly be a help to them. If we truly believe that they are souls for whom Christ died and that he has begun a work in their lives our desire is to meet with them in fellowship and prophesy, speaking unto edification, exhortation and comfort.
delh
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delh
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Post by delh on Dec 1, 2008 18:01:59 GMT -5
John 10:16 -- And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I MUST bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be ONE fold, and one shepherd.
Linda said: "The ONE fold in this passage is referring to believers coming together from both the Jews and the Gentiles. God chose to manifest Himself to the world through the Jews...the fold. But, in the new covenant, ALL believers whether Jew or Gentile are welcomed into the fold. If this passage is spirtualized out of its context, then all other passages must be treated the same way. I'm sure you remember the "grafted in" passages in Romans, I'm sure. That too refers to Jews and Gentiles....not f&w and the rest of the world.
The one fold, or one body of believers includes ALL who have been born again by the Spirit of the living God. There is no one denomination/fellowship or one ethnicity anymore. We are united in the bond of the Spirit, rather than by lineage or codes."
Linda I appreciate you trying to help me understand this scripture in its true light. I am a little confused with your feeling that I have attempted to spiritualize it out of context. That seems to be a favorite euphemism of some for saying I am right and you are wrong which doesn't aid in our trying to understand one another's points of view. I would agree that Paul's expressions about being grafted in refers to Jews and Gentiles. He is very clear on that point. But he does not in any way link those passages with what Jesus was talking about in John 10. Or perhaps you could help me understand where he makes the link that you are speaking about?
Concerning spiritualizing the parable in John 10 forgive me but I always was under the impression that a parable was an earthly story with a heavenly meaning. So I mistakenly thought that I should get some spiritual meaning out of what Jesus was trying to tell us in this parable.
When I look at the context of what Jesus was saying I see that he first of all speaks of other sheep I have, which are not of this fold. You say this fold refers to the Jewish fold. Well that is a possible interpretation of what he meant, but I sure would not be dogmatic on that. I could more likely believe that it refers to those who have already entered into his fold. They have already heard his voice speaking to their hearts, they are following the Shepard. I can not imagine Jesus referring to those who he has already welcomed to his fold and not including the Samaritan women in John 4 who believed that he was the Christ, who told others Samaritans about him who also believed not from what she told them but because they heard him them selves. These were gentiles who had already entered into this fold that he was speaking about. It was not something that would happen in the future.
Yes it is true that in the future many gentiles would hear his voice and enter in to the one fold. It is also equally true that many Jews would hear his voice and enter into the one fold.
At the risk of being accused of over spiritualizing this little verse, I would say that the thing that appeals to me is the fact that Jesus refers to those who will come into his one fold as "other sheep I have". That tells me of the wonderful work going on in the world by His Spirit in the lives of those in the world drawing his sheep into the one fold. Jesus knows they are his sheep long before they are brought into the one fold, not by how they fit into the fold, but how they respond to the work of the Spirit in their lives.
delh
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Post by nathanb on Dec 2, 2008 0:02:26 GMT -5
I just want to let both of you know that I really enjoy reading both of your thoughts, understanding by discussing it in mature manner without personal attacks.
I know the readers are enjoying reading this kind of discussion. Keep up the good work.
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selah
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Post by selah on Dec 2, 2008 1:07:36 GMT -5
Hi delh...thank you so much for responding with so much clarity. Or MY inability to express it well! Thanks for trying to decipher it all. Yes. Those who are born again are my brethren, no matter where they go to fellowship. We don't have to entirely agree to still be siblings in our heavenly Father's family. Yes. First, I tried to find out why our understanding of the scripture was conflicted. Each time I TRIED to talk about it, I was shut down. Of the workers and friends I asked, none would discuss it with me. My questions were considered to be challenges I think, but they were not projected that way, nor was there intent in that way. I believed the f&w were the only true way. Some scripture seemed to indicate otherwise, and I needed someone to show me where I was misinterpreting it. I figured I MUST be making a mistake, because the f&w way HAD to be the only way. I wanted it to be the only way. I was looking for someone to help me see the error in my thinking from a scriptural standpoint. I was not satisfied with pat answers, because I really NEEDED truth. I left the meetings when I could no longer openly share what God was doing in my life. I found out what happens when you try to reconcile that with the f&w doctrines. When I questioned it was to "search deeper into understanding," not to "challenge," but there was an immediate defensive response, that prevented further dialogue. I think many people, both in f&w and in other churches, are quite satisfied with pat answers, so perhaps it's disconcerting when someone comes along who desires to dig deeper. In meeting when we referred to the "world," we were speaking of those outside of the f&w fellowship which we equated to being outside of Christ. I can't speak for other locations, but on the Canadian prairies when I was involved, it was well understood that other denominations, and the people who were part of them were most likely outside the Kingdom, although it would sometimes be clarified that we didn't know their hearts. We did believe, however, that IF they truly knew God in their hearts, they would for sure be drawn by God into the f&w fellowship which was like a synonym for the Kingdom. It wasn't just me. In conversations outside of meeting, it was common to hear snide remarks about other churches, clergy and the foolishness of people who thought they knew Jesus. I found the spirit behind those remarks disturbing. I had a worker tell me that people who say, "Praise the Lord," obviously have nothing in their hearts; because if they did, they wouldn't have to say they praise Him. I know what scripture she was referring to, but it had been misused. Other times I heard workers and friends making general statements about clergy, that I now know to be absolutely untrue. Actually, that word is VERY significant. If it were eliminated, our disagreements would not have to separate us. They still might in some cases, because of conviction or human failures, but it would not be a forced separation based on the ONLY WAY belief. Brothers and sisters do not always agree, and that should be okay. In my case, it wasn't okay for me to disagree with the ONLY WAY belief; in their minds, that placed me "outside the Kindom." That should not negate our kinship in the Lord, and doesn't in my mind, if we are both born again of His Spirit. If we believe differently, it could be that one or the other of us is in error, or perhaps there's a more common belief that we haven't discovered yet...but nevertheless, if His Spirit indwells us, we are still related. The friends here believed that I had a bad spirit....and not the Spirit of God. No, it isn't wrong at all. We should all be free to state what we believe and work toward a greater understanding together. I've been in error LOTS of times, and I'm so glad for those who work with me and help me grow. There's still a long way to go. We need to help each other along the way. If we're dogmatic about our beliefs, it's hard to change. Perhaps where you live that is true. I didn't know of anyone in the f&w who believed that there was any other way that God approved. It was made VERY clear that ONLY the f&w were His children (except for the ones who hadn't met the workers yet, but would), and that ONLY a church that had an itinerent ministry without a home, and meetings in the home qualified before God. ALL the others were foolish, and while perhaps sincere...sincerely wrong. Most were considered insincere though...only in the ministry for money...hirelings etc. It was the head worker in my province who ridiculed/belittled and sternly rebuked me for thinking any other people could be of God. He kept saying over and over how silly it was to consider, because we would then be a body with many heads, instead of just one head, Christ. Most other churches believe also that only Christ is the head of the church, but they don't restrict His leadership to just THEIR church. Amen! I agree 100%. That was the problem; I had to tailor my testimonies to fit inside the f&w framework, rather than share the exciting and beautiful things that God was revealing to me. I tried to keep going...I really did. I wanted to stay and do as you wrote, but my testimony of Christ within was not acceptable to them. I could have stayed if I refrained from speaking about Him in my new understanding of Him. I was convicted that stifling my testimony of Christ was not right in God's eyes, and therefore had to leave. Sorry this is long again. Some of these things just can't be said in a few words. Blessings, Linda
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delh
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Post by delh on Dec 2, 2008 12:09:57 GMT -5
Linda said:
"In meeting when we referred to the "world," we were speaking of those outside of the f&w fellowship which we equated to being outside of Christ."
# 1 John 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
# 1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
# 1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
# 1 John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
# 1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
# 1 John 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
# 1 John 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
Linda I believe that when John was speaking about the world he too was referring to those outside of Christ and I don't think it is a far stretch that he equated that to those who were not in fellowship with the servants of God in his day. John 111: 9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
10Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.
Jesus also warned us about what is out there in the world and even among us:
Math 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
It is not enough to just hear the positive sayings of Jesus. We must also be aware of the warnings he gave us about those who are lurking to draw us away from all he holds dear. I remember the searching question I heard one day--where are the false prophets today? Do we really think they just went away after the 1st century?
It is wonderful to focus on the positive teachings of Jesus and what he wants and holds out for our lives, but he gave us warnings for our own good. I don't believe that we should continually cry wolf, but we would be remiss if we didn't cry out to Jesus when he shows us the wolves that are around us.
delh
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selah
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Post by selah on Dec 2, 2008 13:58:17 GMT -5
Yes, I agree that John was referring to those outside of Christ. He did equate that to those who were not in fellowship with the servants of God in his day. The problem here is the definition of "fellowship with the servants of God." There are many who ARE in fellowship with God's servants(not exclusively the workers) today, who are not recognized as believers by the f&w and other exclusive groups. In John's day, ALL who were born-again of the Spirit of God were included in the fellowship of believers. The same is true today, for those who will accept that. There were different groups in the 1st century too, such as the church at Antioch and the church at Jerusalem...but they were still all believers in one spiritual family, united by the Spirit of God. Yes, there are false prophets today. I would definitely agree. Jesus would not have given us warnings if it were not so. I think we just disagree as to who they are. F&W frequently believe false prophets are any who teach/preach Christ who are not part of their group. I believe false prophets are those who preach contrary to Christ and His teachings. I don't restrict Christ to the confines of just one group or fellowship of believers. ALL born-again believers are in Christ. They are all around us. They emerge in all churches from time to time, just as they did back then. No, they are still here and active. Yes, absolutely. Totally agree. I have a drawing on my wall of a dear little sheep under the protection of the Shepherd, while two wolves lurk on a nearby hill. The Shepherd makes eye contact with them...and that says it all. The drawing is taken from Psalm 91:1-3. He who dwells in the shelter of the Most High will rest in the shadow of the Almighty. I will say of the LORD, "He is my refuge and my fortress, my God, in whom I trust." Surely he will save you from the fowler's snare ..... I don't consider ALL the workers and friends to be false prophets, nor do I consider ALL OTHER clergy and those who claim to know Christ to be false prophets. So, does that mean I think EVERYONE is born of God's Spirit? No, but it's not up to me to determine that. My responsibility, as a born-again believer, is to weigh teaching and examine fruit. I would rather err in thinking one is right with God, than to make a judgement regarding his spirit that might be considered blasphemy. (attributing God's work in someone to Satan) I want to answer your other message too...about spiritualizing scripture, but I have to study today for an upcoming exam. When I can I will respond though. Thank you for intelligently and graciously discussing these things with me dehl. I think we are endeavouring to understand one another....something brothers and sisters do, especially for the sake of their Father and the rest of the family. Thank you. Blessings, Linda
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delh
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Post by delh on Dec 2, 2008 17:15:45 GMT -5
Linda, Just a quick and partial response. You said: There were different groups in the 1st century too, such as the church at Antioch and the church at Jerusalem...but they were still all believers in one spiritual family, united by the Spirit of God.
I hope you are not equating the above churches to the denominational system that we see in the world today? The church at Antioch and the church at Jerusalem were united in their beliefs and all responded to and supported the same ministry that Jesus had sent out into the harvest field. Just like the seven churches in revelation all responded to the message of one man, John the apostle. They are only named as such, because the group of believers were located in various cities. When Paul wrote to the Colosians he asked them to make sure the letter was also read by the church at Laodecia and likewise he asked them to read the letter he had written to the Laodecians. A far different picture than what we have in the world today.
delh
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selah
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Post by selah on Dec 5, 2008 0:39:30 GMT -5
Well....yes....this is exactly how denominationalism works. That's why Paul wrote about it, saying, "My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? 1 Corinthians 1:11-13
AND
You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men? What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 1 Corinthians 3:3-5
We are still the same kind of human beings today as were comprising the early Church. Paul is addressing the very same situation we experience today in denominationalism. He was opposed to the idea of isolating ourselves into groups that claim to be superior to others. He wasn't addressing only a select few, like just those who say they follow "Apollos," but all those who divide themselves from the rest of the family. Today that would include f&w, Catholics, Christadelphians and other groups who separate themselves from the whole body of Christ.
Today, more than ever, denominations are trying to work on this problem, trying to break down the barriers they've built and include one another as brethren. As Paul points out, we ought to recognize them as servants who bring others to Christ.
Many denominations are working toward that aim, since they are recognizing how divisions debilitate the Church even more than tolerance. Notice how Paul still refers to them as "brothers;" so must we today, even though some have said, "I follow Menno Simons," or "I follow Martin Luther," or "I follow the workers," or "I follow Contstantine," etc. etc. When you speak of the same ministry that Jesus had sent out into the harvest field, you might be referring to the two and two itinerant ministry without a home, but I would define that ministry more in terms of the purpose of their mission rather than the method. We are united in the same ministry...meaning, we seek to draw men to the Father, through Christ, His Son.
Just as today, all Christian churches respond to the message of John as well.
Yes, I agree.
Not entirely. I've attended services that include Catholic, Pentacostal, Anglican, Charismatic, Presbyterian clergy and others all sharing in the ministry of the Word. Several churches include in their bulletins, announcements of special evangelistic meetings and/or events that are held in other denominational churches. People are encouraged to embrace other believers no matter where they fellowship. This has been happening for years already, and I'd like to see it increase. My prayer is always for building bridges with my brothers and sisters.
Blessings, Linda
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selah
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Post by selah on Dec 5, 2008 1:30:35 GMT -5
Hi dehl, In reference to Reply #36.... I think I hear what you're saying....please let me explain. I didn't intend to infer that I'm right and you're wrong. I was trying to say that even though we (me too) often spiritualize passages (which derives beautiful devotional value), scripture also has a solid literal context through which we need to filtre our understanding when we're looking for accuracy and consistency of meaning. Sometimes we (me too) overlook the more practical intent of a passage when we concentrate only on the spiritual interpretation. You're right dehl, Paul does not make a link between Romans 11 and John 10. I guess that was me doing that. And after reviewing both chapters, I see that Jesus even says to the Jews, "but you do not believe, because you are not my sheep." verse 26 So, it does seem in this passage that Jesus is referring more to ALL those who believe, as those who are in the one fold. Thanks for pointing that out to me. Of course, I totally agree. dehl, you don't need to ask forgiveness... , and you weren't mistaken. This conversation, to me, is not about defending our positions on scripture, but more about sharing our thoughts with one another for consideration. I apologize if it sounds argumentative. Please know it's not intended that way at all. Nor will I be dogmatic on that interpretation. Amen, thanks...you're right. I wrote: The one fold, or one body of believers includes ALL who have been born again by the Spirit of the living God. There is no one denomination/fellowship or one ethnicity anymore. We are united in the bond of the Spirit, rather than by lineage or codes." This is similar to what you've stated, but I still wonder if when you refer to "fold," do you mean just the f&w fellowship and ministry? Exactly. AMEN!! Blessings, Linda
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delh
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by delh on Dec 5, 2008 13:24:57 GMT -5
Well....yes....this is exactly how denominationalism works. That's why Paul wrote about it, saying, "My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ." Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? 1 Corinthians 1:11-13AND You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men? What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 1 Corinthians 3:3-5Linda, I can understand your great ecumenical passion and I feel the sincerity with which you believe in that cause. I can understand how you would desire to see the churches that we read about in the new testament in a light that would help you to justify an ecumenical approach to uniting those who belong to different denominations today. The problem I have with your interpretation is that first of all the Corinthian example that you give above is a problem that occurred in a group of believers who were all in fellowship together. They were all corrected and addressed by one minister, Paul, who lived in their day, and freely moved among them. They all heard the gospel and embraced the ministry that brought them that gospel. That ministry for the most part labored together and worked together for the good of the believers that they moved among. They often referred to one another as fellow laborers, fellow workers, etc. The church met together and had fellowship as outlined in 1 Cor. 14, each having a part in prophesying, each having a psalm, a hymn. Sure they were not perfect, but they were growing together. 10Now if Timotheus come, see that he may be with you without fear: for he worketh the work of the Lord, as I also do.
11Let no man therefore despise him: but conduct him forth in peace, that he may come unto me: for I look for him with the brethren.
12As touching our brother Apollos, I greatly desired him to come unto you with the brethren: but his will was not at all to come at this time; but he will come when he shall have convenient time.
19The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.
That is how I see the Corinthian church. Sorry but I just cannot wrest that into seeing any similarity to the denominational churches of today. There is no common ministry. The ministry in each denomination is pretty much doing it in their own way. Is that wrong? Is it like you say just different methods but the same goals and desires? That is something that each of us must come to peace with. To me if it is just a matter of method that we each come up with on our own, i.e. I think this is the best way to do it, or I think this would win more souls to Christ, or I think this is what he wants me to do, or ----then it is wrong. If the method is something that Jesus felt was correct and something he initiated than I think it is right. I see no way to follow Jesus example and teaching except to follow his example and teaching. There is abundant proof to me that throughout the new testament the ministry that Jesus sent forth in his day continued with many others added after His death who continued on as fellow laborers and companions with the original ministry. We can say well that is just a method of going forth that they used and it really isn't important today. My feeling is that if it was important enough for those we read of in the new testament to do it in their day then it should be something that is important in my day. 2 Corinthians 11
1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.
2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
5For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.
12But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.Did all of the Corinthians accept the ministry that Paul and Timothy believed in and were living before them? No, and that could have been a large part of the problem that Paul so tenderly was addressing. From the above passages it is apparent that there were those among them that some had accepted as the ministers of Christ who were not. And from the verses below it is apparent that they felt no need of the correct ministry. They were doing fine on their own. Sorry, but I conclude that the correct ministry is something very important and not to be lightly dismissed, and it is a lot more than just going forth 2x2 as some assert. 8Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.
9For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
10We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
11Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
12And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
13Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
14I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
15For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
16Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
17For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church. delh
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