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Post by nathanb on Nov 29, 2007 17:41:26 GMT -5
=nancye board=]continuing re:
Ernie's testimony........I love how he realizes that it wasn't intellectual reasoning any longer but rather revelation from God Himself that was the answer. Just as Peter received when Christ said the "gates of hell could not prevail against" that........ And Ernie said he was in a gospel mtg and "by the foolishness of preaching"after all that by revelation he made known to me the mystery of Christ, as it is revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, he became convicted of what he had to do) was doing what Jesus sent the apostles to do, and that that work was still going forward today."
He expressed that he came to know (he "saw") that the "glory" that Jesus said He had shared with His Father before the world began was "love". And about Jesus giving that glory the Father had given Him to US. I like the following which he stated too: He said he "saw" John 17. "The love which makes us who we are." "The commandment to love as Christ first loved us and proved that love in the crucifixion.....
The reality of the truth and of the love in the family of believers; the real presence of Jesus in the breaking of the bread-the recognition of the Body of Christ and the unity of loving the brethern and the real meaning of what we are to do in His memory." That would have been a new and different understanding from what he had known as a Catholic priest in Catholocism's ritual of celebrating the same. We're glad for revelation that comes that is not of the flesh.thanks for posting ! otto [/quote] Hi! Otto.... Those of us who were not born and raised in this 2x2 fellowship have the similiar revelation from God as Ernie including myself. Sometimes it is very hard to explain it to others... it is better FELT than TELL.
It is a very special gift of Revelation to those who truly, sincerely seeking God to serve Him. No man can't take this special gift of revelation from us.
I asked God to show me if the workers were false preachers? He revealed it to me through two experiences that they are NOT false prophets/preachers. The 2x2 Itinerant workers ministry is from God and NOT man's ideas.
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Post by otto on Nov 30, 2007 12:54:32 GMT -5
=nancye board=]continuing re:
Ernie's testimony........I love how he realizes that it wasn't intellectual reasoning any longer but rather revelation from God Himself that was the answer. Just as Peter received when Christ said the "gates of hell could not prevail against" that........ And Ernie said he was in a gospel mtg and "by the foolishness of preaching"after all that by revelation he made known to me the mystery of Christ, as it is revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, he became convicted of what he had to do) was doing what Jesus sent the apostles to do, and that that work was still going forward today."
He expressed that he came to know (he "saw") that the "glory" that Jesus said He had shared with His Father before the world began was "love". And about Jesus giving that glory the Father had given Him to US. I like the following which he stated too: He said he "saw" John 17. "The love which makes us who we are." "The commandment to love as Christ first loved us and proved that love in the crucifixion.....
The reality of the truth and of the love in the family of believers; the real presence of Jesus in the breaking of the bread-the recognition of the Body of Christ and the unity of loving the brethern and the real meaning of what we are to do in His memory." That would have been a new and different understanding from what he had known as a Catholic priest in Catholocism's ritual of celebrating the same. We're glad for revelation that comes that is not of the flesh.thanks for posting ! otto Hi! Otto.... Those of us who were not born and raised in this 2x2 fellowship have the similiar revelation from God as Ernie including myself. Sometimes it is very hard to explain it to others... it is better FELT than TELL.
It is a very special gift of Revelation to those who truly, sincerely seeking God to serve Him. No man can't take this special gift of revelation from us.
I asked God to show me if the workers were false preachers? He revealed it to me through two experiences that they are NOT false prophets/preachers. The 2x2 Itinerant workers ministry is from God and NOT man's ideas.[/quote] Yes, we all share in revelation, yet it is not allways the exact same for each, this is what makes each of us unique to God....we become known by how God seeks us out maybe?
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Post by to Nb on Nov 30, 2007 15:36:39 GMT -5
Nathanb wrote
Hi! Otto.... Those of us who were not born and raised in this 2x2 fellowship have the similiar revelation from God as Ernie including myself. Sometimes it is very hard to explain it to others... it is better FELT than TELL.
Nathan, I am confused because you said you were not born and raised but that you met the workers in Vietnam when you were at university. Now you say you were born and raised. You have always said you were not adn that your parents have not been to meeting.
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Post by to Nb on Nov 30, 2007 15:38:03 GMT -5
ok - sorry I read it again and I see that you did write that you were NOT born and raised. I missed the not the first time...
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Post by nathanb on Nov 30, 2007 18:18:44 GMT -5
Nathanb wrote Hi! Otto.... Those of us who were not born and raised in this 2x2 fellowship have the similiar revelation from God as Ernie including myself. Sometimes it is very hard to explain it to others... it is better FELT than TELL. Nathan, I am confused because you said you were not born and raised but that you met the workers in Vietnam when you were at university. Now you say you were born and raised. You have always said you were not adn that your parents have not been to meeting. No, problem ... I met the workers Leo Stancliff and Larry Taylor on the island of Guam at the University in 1978 when they were having Bible Studies in the middle of the campus' lawn.
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Post by Chris on Dec 8, 2007 21:16:47 GMT -5
"time to be honest" says the Waldensians are nothing to do with us, and that seems right, but I do not remember Nathan saying that. If we are supposed to be a breakaway from the waldensians, when did we break away? Who were involved in that breakaway? Can anyone name one of those involved? Good questions Geoff. Either the church organisation matters or it doesn't. If it does matter, then let's be honest about it's beginnings in 1897. If it doesn't matter, then lets stop preaching our selves and our group and simply preach Jesus who is the way, the truth and the life. You can't have it both ways. Is salvation in a relationship with Jesus or in a relationship with a church? I think we'd all agree that a church can't save anyone. I think we'd even agree that "Jesus alone can save me". I think what hurts people is they are led to believe they are saved by belonging to the "one-true-church". Then when they they leave after learning that it's history has been covered up, it's said that "their faith was in the church instead of in Christ". When our faith is in Christ, when we're hearing the Shepherd's voice and following him, then we love to have fellowship with fellow believers here on Earth. But salvation doesn't hinge on what we "join" here on Earth. When Christ is ruling within our hearts we are part of "the church of the first born" and our names are written in heaven. So I agree that it's time to be honest. Make it clear to people that their salvation is not in their attachment to "the one-true-church-group" here on Earth, but rather in their attachment to the Christ who redeemed them with his own blood. Chris R
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ram
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Post by ram on Dec 9, 2007 6:32:09 GMT -5
Well said Chris. Jesus "demands" of every follower that they "forsake all" for his sake. He even said that we must "hate" our Father, mother, brethren, sisters, and even our own selves in order to do this.
Jesus wants first place in our lives, head and shoulders above all other relationships we may have, no matter how justifiable, understandable and natural these may be. "Hating" for his sake in these circumstances is merely a priority listing, i.e. Jesus has first priority in our lives. Even group or church membership comes second place to Jesus. He is head and shoulders above that as well.
It is clear from the command to forsake all, "if a man comes after me and hates not his father, mother, etc.... he cannot be my disciple," that Jesus wants a strong, individual relationship with each and every one of his followers, way above a collective fellowship with him.
We cannot have a church or group on the same footing as Jesus. We cannot regard following Jesus as being part of a particular group, no matter how good that group may be, for in doing so we end up equating that group with Jesus.
There is a major difference between identifying a group with Jesus and equating a group with him. One is subservient, the other becomes his equal. I've known some to say that "Jesus" is "the ministry without a home and the church in the home." How dangerous a view that is.
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geoff
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Post by geoff on Dec 9, 2007 7:32:39 GMT -5
Well, I have to agree with the above two posts, RAM and Chris.
While some want to cling to a story of apostolic succession thats not been proven, and has been disproven, they ignore that fact that thats only trivia anyway.
With respect to the details of the origins, first workers etc, I first learned this from the first workers I ever met. They made no attempt to hide this. We discussed some details I'd found in an encyclopedia, and that settled it for me. For over 20 years. It was of no consequence until I found out that some in some places had been told something different.
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Post by Chris on Dec 9, 2007 22:16:53 GMT -5
People seem to think that "if our fellowship is not the only way right, then all 38,000 denominations are right. I might as well pick something easy and join it".
Anyone who thinks like that doesn't know the scriptures or the power of God. "The love of God within my heart, will teach me how to do my part". "Not where the flesh delighteth the feet of Jesus trod".
Not one of those 38,000 groups is "God's Way" and not one person ever became a true Christian by joining a Christian group. God's way is not a group of people or a method of worship. God's way is Jesus himself, and he alone can save.
Yes, it would be confusing if we had to sort through 38,000 denominations to find the one-true-way church.
Thankfully Jesus didn't come to start a one-true-way. He came to pay redemption's price and BE the way. Anyone seeking truth will find Jesus who himself IS the truth. They'll hear his voice from heaven and follow him.
Here is a quote from "The Gate Seldom Found" by Raymond Reid which addresses this topic:
"We must be careful to focus on the bridegroom, never on the bride. If Christ, our bridegroom, ever becomes secondary to our own little assembly which is part of his bride, we're in desperate straits. All through history, the church has suffered from this insidious problem of drawing people to herself. Little by little as she took on a life of her own, the life and Spirit of Christ was sifted out until only a shell remained."
Also...
"The true church is made up of everyone who's become alive to God - from every nation and age since the beginning of time. Their invisible connection with God is what makes them part of his great universal church. Simply attaching one's self to a group, even ours, will never do that."
I expect most if not all of the early workers at the turn of the 20th century understood this.
Chris R
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Post by nathanb on Dec 10, 2007 1:57:18 GMT -5
People seem to think that "if our fellowship is not the only way right, then all 38,000 denominations are right. I might as well pick something easy and join it". Anyone who thinks like that doesn't know the scriptures or the power of God. "The love of God within my heart, will teach me how to do my part". "Not where the flesh delighteth the feet of Jesus trod". Not one of those 38,000 groups is "God's Way" and not one person ever became a true Christian by joining a Christian group. God's way is not a group of people or a method of worship. God's way is Jesus himself, and he alone can save. Yes, it would be confusing if we had to sort through 38,000 denominations to find the one-true-way church. Thankfully Jesus didn't come to start a one-true-way. He came to pay redemption's price and BE the way. Anyone seeking truth will find Jesus who himself IS the truth. They'll hear his voice from heaven and follow him. Here is a quote from "The Gate Seldom Found" by Raymond Reid which addresses this topic: "We must be careful to focus on the bridegroom, never on the bride. If Christ, our bridegroom, ever becomes secondary to our own little assembly which is part of his bride, we're in desperate straits. All through history, the church has suffered from this insidious problem of drawing people to herself. Little by little as she took on a life of her own, the life and Spirit of Christ was sifted out until only a shell remained." Also... "The true church is made up of everyone who's become alive to God - from every nation and age since the beginning of time. Their invisible connection with God is what makes them part of his great universal church. Simply attaching one's self to a group, even ours, will never do that." I expect most if not all of the early workers at the turn of the 20th century understood this. Chris R God has a Way and that Way is Jesus. READ the NEW Testament again and you would understand that in the Gospel Jesus spoke of MY Church! and ALL of the apostles epistles mention how those who believe in the apostles' teachings, Itinerant ministry did gather together among themselves for fellowship in Jesus as the Way and Truth.
(Acts 2:41-46) The same day there were added unto them about 3000 souls, and they "Continued" Steadfastly in the apostles' Doctrines! and Fellowship! and in breaking of bread and in prayers... and they continue daily in ONE accord....
You don't EVER! read Jesus or the apostles tell their converts to go back to their former faith or find a fellowship of their own choice to join after they became Christians. BUT they gathered together with the apostles and their fellow Christians to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. (I Cor. 11-14)
~~~ Well, sadly to say some of the friends do get the CART before the horse and that's wrong! that's to say.... putting their Faith Salvation in the Church, workers instead in Christ as the Way and the Truth...
First, Jesus Christ is the Truth and the Way to Salvation period! You and I MUST to have personal relation with God the Father, Jesus Christ as the Savior FIRST! praying, reading the scriptures, going to God for everything First! or before anyone then having fellowship with fellow believers are secondarily....
Don't put your faith in men... because they Will LET you down, disappointment, heartaches in the end sometimes. Put God first in your life when others fall, stumbles, go back, fallen away they will NOT take you with them because your Faith is in God and NOT in them/men.
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Post by nathanb on Dec 10, 2007 2:01:34 GMT -5
We knew a lady here who said, "There is only one way, God's way." It seems to me one has to ignore too many words Jesus spoke to say organization and order does not matter, that the work God gave Jesus to do was to start some sort of melting pot that would become the 38,000 denominations that exist today. How could a babe understand that? 38,000 denominations is confusing, God is not the author of confusion, man's carnal reasoning is. Who are the foolish virgins? (They were undefiled, but still foolish.) Who is the man without a wedding garment? Who are the goats and the sheep in the parable of separation? What did Jesus mean "straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leads to salvation and few there be that find it"? ~ "21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. " Who is Jesus talking about? How do we know who are the true and false prophets? You have a very good, clear understanding of how things are. Well, only the Holy Spirit can reveal these truths to honest, sincere, and seeking hearts in times.
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Post by Chris on Dec 10, 2007 4:53:01 GMT -5
~~~ Well, sadly to say some of the friends do get the CART before the horse and that's wrong! that's to say.... putting their Faith Salvation in the Church, workers instead in Christ as the Way and the Truth...
First, Jesus Christ is the Truth and the Way to Salvation period! It's MUST to have personal relation with God the Father, Jesus Christ as the Savior FIRST! then having fellowship with fellow believers are secondarily....
Don't put your faith in men... because they Will LET you down, disappointment, heartaches in the end sometimes. Put God first in your life when others fall, stumbles, go back, fallen away they will NOT take you with them because your Faith is in God and NOT in them/men. Well said Nathan. Chris R
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Post by nathanb on Dec 10, 2007 10:16:39 GMT -5
~~~ Well, sadly to say some of the friends do get the CART before the horse and that's wrong! that's to say.... putting their Faith Salvation in the Church, workers instead in Christ as the Way and the Truth...
First, Jesus Christ is the Truth and the Way to Salvation period! It's MUST to have personal relation with God the Father, Jesus Christ as the Savior FIRST! then having fellowship with fellow believers are secondarily....
Don't put your faith in men... because they Will LET you down, disappointment, heartaches in the end sometimes. Put God first in your life when others fall, stumbles, go back, fallen away they will NOT take you with them because your Faith is in God and NOT in them/men. Well said Nathan. Chris R Thanks, Christ R. my friend... I appreciate reading many of your wisdom, thoughts on different lists we are on how you encourage us to be more focus on Christ and less on men or their own ideas, rules, traditions, etc... which contradicted His teachings.
It's Very wise! when we point others to follow Christ's teachings because his words came from His own heavenly Father himself. So we must take Jesus words, teachings very seriously that's a very godly wisdom for all to remember. God's will, teachings MUST come before anyone, or anything on this earth. It is He (Jesus) who saves us. He's a Savior to those who put their trust Him.
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geoff
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Post by geoff on Dec 10, 2007 15:09:23 GMT -5
Pointing to 38000 denominations and saying they can't all be right is just polarising the question. Its not an all or nothing question on this specific point.
Its a bit like someone with a Volkswagen car pointing to all other cars and saying "VW is the ONLY car". All other cars are not cars, they are false cars.
Or to humans, saying "I'm lucky to be Brazilian, as all other nationalities are not people, they are false".
Does this mean all cars are equal? Of course not. Are all people equal? No again (unfortunately).
Are all denominations equal? No. Is any one of them perfectly right? No again.
I once searched for a demonination that followed the bible perfectly. Tried about 15 of them. There is none that does this. Some claim our fellowship does; but there are many things we choose to ignore from scripture, or to follow part of, or even to do some that aren't even scriptural. Does that disqualify us? No.
If we trace back far enough 38000 denominations becomes only a few, until we get back to Jesus' day and it was just 12 or 13 men. The branching out began then, and some of that was recorded in the latter books of scripture. (remember the Nicolaitanes?)
Are all adherants of those divisions denied salvation while they remain there? I don't think so. Are any of them excluding themselves, I think so. Do we have to belong to any special earthly group to gain Gods favour? I find no scripture to support that.
Jesse asked who various ones were - the foolish virgins, the garmentless wedding guest etc. There seems nothing in these parables to suggest that group membership was what excluded them. Were they excluded? Oh yes. Why was that? Something to do with them themselves. Not something like "Oh your membership of the XYZ denomination excludes you, depart from me ye workers of iniquity".
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Post by nancye on Dec 12, 2007 0:33:32 GMT -5
Matt24:28 is coming to mind as I read the above, not exactly sure why....... "For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together."
Any thoughts?
n.
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