|
Post by nathanb on Oct 22, 2007 15:54:30 GMT -5
Nathan said: Jesus, Matthias, and Barnabas, Paul's co-workers to the Gentiles nation such as Timothy, Titus, Luke, and John Mark, and many others were celibated for the sake of the Gospel.1) Geoff wrote: I think to mix Jesus in with this lot of mortals is misleading, though there's no dispute from my point of view that he was celibate. ~~~ Nathan: There is no misleading at all because I don't read any of those were married in the book of Acts or in history. If you find any history which point to the fact they were married I would like to read it. 2) Geoff wrote: But for the others, I don't see any evidence that they were celibate. Some might have been, but we have no definitive scripture to show this. ~~~ Nathan: As I said if you found any evidence the names of men which I wrote were married in the book of Acts or early church history I would like to read it. Quotes like... Nathan wrote: As an Itinerant apostle Paul wrote in I Cor. 4:9-13 Even unto this present hour WE (Barnabas, Timothy) both hunger, and thirsty and are naked, and are brutality treated, and have NO! certain dwelling place...3) Geoff wrote: (and I note that YOU added the word "itinerant" in there), do not prove celibacy or homelessness. Sure Paul was commenting that at that time they had no home, It doesn't imply or indicate a permanency of that state. ~~~ Nathan: If you could show me scriptures which indicate Paul own his own home, or later was married was NOT permanency of that state in the book of Acts I really appreciate it.4) Geoff wrote: I note that in As an Itinerant apostle Paul wrote in 1Co 4:16 I urge you, then, be imitators of me., Paul asks all those to whome he addressed his letter to imitate him in the things he was saying. If we follow your reasoning then Paul asked ALL beleivers to be homeless and celibate?? ~~~ Nathan: Yes, according to Paul's own words he wished all believers to be called homeless, and celibate apostles preachers of the Gospel like himself but he knew it was NOT possible.... so In Cor. 7:20 he wrote Let every man! abide in the SAME calling! which he was called.... If they can not contain it, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.5) Geoff wrote: If it were the case that the apostles were to follow all these instructions, and that today we have people doing just that, then they'd be doing it all. But I don't see that the apostles, let alone anyone since did all these things. After all they're human, they err. Take nothing for their journey... Mark 6:8 Take no scrip (bag/baggage)... Matt 10:10, Luke 9:3, 70-Luke 10:4 Take no money... Mark 6:8, Matt 10:9, Luke 9:3, Luke 10:4 Carry no shoes... Matt 10:10, Luke 10:4 Wear sandals... Mark 6:9 Not to take or have two coats... Matt 10:10, Luke 9:3, Mark 6:9 Go not from house to house... Luke 10:7 ~~~ Nathan: The Instruction which Jesus gave to the 12 apostle in Matthew 10 and the 72 in Luke 10 were NOT meant for anyone after them to follow.... It was the 12 and 72 disciples/apostles mission to the Lost Sheep House of Israel (10 lost tribes) and the two tribes of Judah and Benjamins.Geoff, Where does Jesus say in the Gospels that the apostles in the book of Acts, through down the ages and today! to repeat or follow those instructions in Matthew 10 and Luke 10 which was meant for the 12 and 72 apostles mission to the Lost sheep House of Israel and to the Jews in every city DURING that period in time and places.[/color]
|
|
|
Post by nathanb on Oct 22, 2007 16:34:57 GMT -5
(Part II)
1) Geoff: Lets examine some of your quotaions
Matthew 19:16-26 A rich young ruler (a Pharisee, teacher of the Old Testament law) came and said unto him, ALL these things (10 commandments) have I kept from my youth: what LACK I yet?
Jesus said unto him, "If thou wilt be PERFECT! go and SELL that thou has, and GIVE to the poor, and thou shall have treasure in heaven and come and follow me." The young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful for he had GREAT possessions.
Jesus asked this ONE man to sell all. There's nothing in these verses to say the instruction applied to others. In fact I wonder if Jesus was not even being literal, rather illustrating that this man placed more store on his possessions in this life that eternal life, and showed that to the man by asking this. The man didn't obey. Jesus would have known he would not obey. It was no precedent.
~~~ Nathan: I showed you the Vaudois apostles (A.D. 70-1800) history which they practice through down the ages for 1800 yrs. The Vaudois and those who believe in the similiar 2x2 Itinerant ministry HAD no property! or goods! or home! or family! If they had these they LEFT! them. They possess NOTHING, had NO home, and literally acted upon this command which came from Jesus and apostles themsevles... Because their NEEDS were being MET by the believers among them.
Nathan wrote: Then In Matthew 19:27-29 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, we have forsaken ALL (left their fishing business, homes, families) and follow thee, what shall we have therefore?
2) Geoff: These verses follow on from the previous (above). They continue Jesus theme of putting less importance on earthly possessions that heavenly. It is you that added what you think they left. The original says Mat 19:27 Then Peter said in reply, "See, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?"
This was directed perhaps at all believers, as it addresses the question first put by the rich man...
~~~ Nathan: NO, it was NOT directed to ALL disciples of Jesus to SELL ALL and to follow Jesus in the Itinerant ministry.
Mat 19:16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?"
There's nothing in the verses to show that these things applied only to the disciples.
Jesus answered, "And every that has forshaken houses, brethren, sisters, or fathers, mothers, WIFE, children or lands for MY name's sake, shall receive 100 folds, and shall inherit everlasting.
Mat 19:29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life. ESV
3) Geoff wrote: Its interesting that you wrote the word "wife" in capitals (to emphasise it). Its not shown in most translations except the KJV. I wonder why the later translations, with their better knowledge of translations, and better access to early versions than the KJV left that out?
But anyway, this is still answering the question of the rich young man. I think it is symbolic of putting value not on earthly, or even on family matters but on heavenly. It certainly was not given as an instruciton here.
In Acts 3:1-8 Peter said to the lame man at the Temple, "Silver and gold I have NONE! but such as I have I give thee: in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk."
This does not show that Peter was always penniless, only that he was that day. And it could be that even so, Peter was trying to show that money cannot buy salvation, and was making that point.
~~~ Nathan: The lame man wanted money from Peter and John but he told them they didn't have very much... ALL their needs, money, etc.. were supplied by their followers.
The man wasn't seeking for Salvation! Peter and John wanted to give him something much better than money which the man asked from them... Peter and John did not have very much.
Acts 4:35-37 Barnabas (an apostle fellow-workers of Paul) a Levite, from the country of Cyprus, having land, SOLD it, and brought the money, and laid at the apostles' feet.
4) Geoff wrote: What happened to the money after he laid it there. Did the penniless apostles walk away and leave it there? I think not. If so, then why did not Barnabas just throw it away. He was giving it to them. And after he did so, they HAD THE MONEY.
~~~ Nathan: In Acts 4 and 5 we read about Barnabas, Ananias and his wife Sapphria, and others gave their possessions, land, and money so the 3000 and 5000 converts could stay in Jerusalem to learn more about their NEW Faith in Christ and of the apostles doctrines (Acts 2:41-46.
In the book of Acts we read the apostles use the money to help the needy in the church, they spent the money for the apostles trips fares bring the Gospel of Salvation to different countries, etc.. or whatever the needs might be.
Paul's testimony: Gal. 1:13,14 For ye have heard of my conversation in the time past in the Jews religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it. And PROFITED beyond many my equals in my own nation....
5) Geoff wrote: This has nothing to do with money. Look at this translation... Gal 1:13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it. Gal 1:14 And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers.
The word "Profit" in the KJV extract means "became better as a result of" ("advanced" in the ESV)
Your quotations about the Vaudois are a red herring in this context.
So, it seems there's little evidence to show that the disciple were to be celibate, or itinerant. Sure, some were. But equally, many were not. There was a mixture.
Case not proven.
~~~~ Nathan: I just did in many of my posts to you. I have proven many historical evidences about the Vaudois apostles belief, and what they teach and those who believe like them through down the ages on my 2x2 website. So I will Let the readers decide for themselves.
|
|
|
Post by seeker on Oct 22, 2007 18:33:03 GMT -5
When I started this thread over three weeks ago, my main concern was that by implying our fellowship has continued from the time of Jesus until now, we are possibly misleading people. One of the reasons people have left is they feel they have been lied to about the origins of our fellowship. I can see the discussion broadened to celibacy of the apostles, etc.
With regard to the original point, the history of the Vaudois is all very interesting and show strong resemblance to us in many ways. But it is conjecture that we are a direct descendents of them. If we were, it seems like we would accept each other as brethren and be in fellowship today. As someone else posted, when did the split happen?
I found my notes from Dan Hilton, which explain why proving a direct, unbroken link between the NT ministry and our 21st century ministry, is not necessary. I am including them to show we should be more open about our history, and possibly minimize a source of offence.
Who Started This Church? – Dan Hilton – Burlington, WA 1984
We are often asked, who started this church? Heb 12:2, “Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith…”, Jesus gave us God’s eternal plan of salvation in its fullness. He is both the author and finisher. Jesus being the finisher, there is no more room for anyone else to add anything.
Then, we are sometimes asked, “Why don’t you speak of older ministers of the faith of Jesus in past generations?” God’s answer to this question is found in 2Cor 4:5, “for we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.” So, it is not the will of God for us to be preaching about ministers of past generations. We preach Christ.
Also, we are sometimes asked about the period between the first and second coming of Christ, but especially the period of time between the first century and the present twentieth century. We have no written record on earth of God’s work in the world during this period. God’s records are written in heaven, Malachi 3:16, Luke 10:20, and Rev 20:12. Any who would suggest that a written genealogy record is necessary between the first and twentieth century would fall into the category of 1Tim 3:4. “As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine. Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith, so do.”
We shall consider three illustrations. First, Gen 1:12. Wheat Seed. Wheat has always been wheat. If you were a wheat farmer, and I was a wheat seed merchant, and you came to me to obtain a truckload of wheat seed, it would not be necessary for me to put into your hand a historical brochure with a written record of when and where that wheat has been grown in past years in several states, and countries of Europe and the Near East and back to the garden of Eden, for that seed to grow wheat. Every wheat seed is a living historical brochure of the wheat clear back to Gen 1:12. And so the spiritual lesson is: Jesus said in Luke 8:11, “The seed is the word of God.” The Word of God has always been the same seed. Whether anyone believes and receives the seed of the Word of God makes no difference in this respect for God’s truth.
God’s truth is God’s truth if nobody believes and receives it, or a few do, or many do. As with wheat seed, there could have been times in the centuries of time there may have been no wheat seed planted, but is was still wheat seed. And if farmers took wheat out of the granary and planted it again, there would be wheat growing and harvested again in the world. So it may have been there were times in centuries past if there was no one in the earth believing and receiving the seed of the word of God for a time, and then God was able to raise up true ministers like Jesus established to sow the seed of the word of God, then there would be the Godly harvest in the world again. It is just that simple and certain.
Second, A Pattern. You make a suit of clothes by the pattern and follow the pattern closely; the suit will be like the pattern. If you make ten suits or a hundred suits or a thousand suits and follow the pattern closely, then they will all be like the pattern and like each other. And so it is in the spiritual. Jesus is our pattern. Rom 8:29, “Be conformed to the image of Jesus.” The word image here comes from a word that meant “pattern”. So anyone in any century going back to Jesus, the pattern, and following the pattern closely, will have the ministry and salvation and church like Jesus. However, if anyone was to make a suit of clothes by the pattern and then put the pattern away in the drawer and then use suit number one as some of the pattern for suit number two, and then suit number two as some of the pattern for suit number three and then suit number three as some of the pattern for suit number four, and continue to use this method in make nineteen suits of clothes, the last one would not even resemble the pattern of the first suit of clothes that had been made by the first pattern. And there is the answer for all the confusion in the world today that is so different that Jesus the original pattern and the first century ministry and church that was made by the first pattern.
If nineteen suites of clothes were made by this last method, how could suit number twenty be made like suit number one? Answer: Set all the other suits aside and go back and get the original pattern out of the drawer and then make suit number twenty by the first pattern and then suit number twenty will be like the first pattern and the first suit made by the first pattern. Also spiritually. In this twentieth century we go back to Jesus, the first pattern and His ministry and faith and spirit and love and teaching and example and everything, and then we will have all there is in Jesus and Him who is the first pattern. Also we will have in the ministry and church, everything the same as the first century church that was made by Jesus the first pattern. I hope that there were people who did this in the centuries between the first century and the twentieth century, but we have no records and we do not know. God knows. Whether they did nor not does not make a bit of difference to our salvation. The pattern in Jesus was always there waiting for the sincere and honest to go back to.
Third, in the Old Testament there were two ministries. First the Levite and the priesthood of Aaron ministry, and second the prophet ministry. (Jeremiah and Ezekiel were both priests and prophets). There was an unbroken chain of priesthood ministry from Aaron to Christ, but there were missing links in the prophet ministry during this same period of time from Moses and Aaron to Christ. Transferring that as an object lesson over to the period of time between Christ and now, there was an unbroken continuance of the priesthood ministry of Christ in heaven from the first century to the twentieth century. Heb 7:25, “He ever liveth to make intercession to God.”
However, we have no written record on earth concerning the New Testament ministry that was established by Christ during the period between the first century and the twentieth century. Whether there were or were not broken periods during this time, God knows and that is sufficient. Matt 16:16-18. If people receive true revelation from the Father, that is the rock foundation of salvation of Christ, and not having any need of an apostolic secession in recorded history. Sufficient for that.
|
|
|
Post by Joe on Oct 22, 2007 20:24:40 GMT -5
I agree 100% seeker.... I think speaking openly would help keep people from becoming taken up with the form of worship and focus more on the Christ of which this is all about anyway. The thought came to me while reading your post that Dan is speaking about Christ and Christ being the pattern... hmmm, it seems some say that isn't done... so maybe this is all made up anyway....
|
|
|
Post by nathanb on Oct 22, 2007 22:31:57 GMT -5
1) Seeker wrote: When I started this thread over three weeks ago, my main concern was that by implying our fellowship has continued from the time of Jesus until now, we are possibly misleading people. One of the reasons people have left is they feel they have been lied to about the origins of our fellowship. I can see the discussion broadened to celibacy of the apostles, etc. ~~~ Nathan: Thanks, for starting your thread it was a good one! This we know Jesus and apostles Itinerant ministry and the New Testament Church which they started around A.D. 30 has "Continued" through down the ages... and still exist in our days.2) Seeker wrote: With regard to the original point, the history of the Vaudois is all very interesting and show strong resemblance to us in many ways. But it is conjecture that we are a direct descendents of them. If we were, it seems like we would accept each other as brethren and be in fellowship today. As someone else posted, when did the split happen? ~~~ Nathan: The Vaudois apostles and Christians and us have very STRONG resemblances in many ways of belief, teachings, Itinerant ministry, and the way of worship Eucharist of Christ=emblems in the homes of believers. It is a miracle! really.
The Vaudois/Waldenses as we know today has changed so much from their forefathers... according to my understanding many of the Vaudois split different directions in the 15-21st century. These formers Vaudois started their own churches, some have joined the Protestants reformation, and others became Catholics.3) Seeker wrote: I found my notes from Dan Hilton, which explain why proving a direct, unbroken link between the NT ministry and our 21st century ministry, is not necessary. I am including them to show we should be more open about our history, and possibly minimize a source of offence. 4) Dan Hilton spoke: Who Started This Church? – Dan Hilton – Burlington, WA 1984 We are often asked, who started this church? Heb 12:2, “Looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith…”, Jesus gave us God’s eternal plan of salvation in its fullness. He is both the author and finisher. Jesus being the finisher, there is no more room for anyone else to add anything. Then, we are sometimes asked, “Why don’t you speak of older ministers of the faith of Jesus in past generations?” God’s answer to this question is found in 2Cor 4:5, “for we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.” So, it is not the will of God for us to be preaching about ministers of past generations. We preach Christ. Also, we are sometimes asked about the period between the first and second coming of Christ, but especially the period of time between the first century and the present twentieth century. We have no written record on earth of God’s work in the world during this period. God’s records are written in heaven, Malachi 3:16, Luke 10:20, and Rev 20:12. Any who would suggest that a written genealogy record is necessary between the first and twentieth century would fall into the category of 1Tim 3:4. “As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine. Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith, so do.” ~~~ Nathan: I remember Dan Hilton when I was in the work we were together at different special meeting rounds in Montana, USA. He was a wonderful teacher, a gifted evangelist, Bible student, and truly a servant of God.
I have some of Dan Hilton's sermon and his funeral on my website.
Yes that is true there's no written record of God's work in the world between Malachi to the time of Jesus' birth in the Bible as we know it today. But the children of Israel exist, and a written history is recorded about them in the book of Macabees between Malachi and the Gospels.
5) Dan spoke: We shall consider three illustrations. First, Gen 1:12. Wheat Seed. Wheat has always been wheat. If you were a wheat farmer, and I was a wheat seed merchant, and you came to me to obtain a truckload of wheat seed, it would not be necessary for me to put into your hand a historical brochure with a written record of when and where that wheat has been grown in past years in several states, and countries of Europe and the Near East and back to the garden of Eden, for that seed to grow wheat.
Every wheat seed is a living historical brochure of the wheat clear back to Gen 1:12. And so the spiritual lesson is: Jesus said in Luke 8:11, “The seed is the word of God.” The Word of God has always been the same seed. Whether anyone believes and receives the seed of the Word of God makes no difference in this respect for God’s truth.
God’s truth is God’s truth if nobody believes and receives it, or a few do, or many do. As with wheat seed, there could have been times in the centuries of time there may have been no wheat seed planted, but is was still wheat seed. And if farmers took wheat out of the granary and planted it again, there would be wheat growing and harvested again in the world. So it may have been there were times in centuries past if there was no one in the earth believing and receiving the seed of the word of God for a time, and then God was able to raise up true ministers like Jesus established to sow the seed of the word of God, then there would be the Godly harvest in the world again. It is just that simple and certain.
Second, A Pattern. You make a suit of clothes by the pattern and follow the pattern closely; the suit will be like the pattern. If you make ten suits or a hundred suits or a thousand suits and follow the pattern closely, then they will all be like the pattern and like each other. And so it is in the spiritual. Jesus is our pattern. Rom 8:29, “Be conformed to the image of Jesus.” The word image here comes from a word that meant “pattern”. So anyone in any century going back to Jesus, the pattern, and following the pattern closely, will have the ministry and salvation and church like Jesus.
However, if anyone was to make a suit of clothes by the pattern and then put the pattern away in the drawer and then use suit number one as some of the pattern for suit number two, and then suit number two as some of the pattern for suit number three and then suit number three as some of the pattern for suit number four, and continue to use this method in make nineteen suits of clothes, the last one would not even resemble the pattern of the first suit of clothes that had been made by the first pattern. And there is the answer for all the confusion in the world today that is so different that Jesus the original pattern and the first century ministry and church that was made by the first pattern.
If nineteen suites of clothes were made by this last method, how could suit number twenty be made like suit number one? Answer: Set all the other suits aside and go back and get the original pattern out of the drawer and then make suit number twenty by the first pattern and then suit number twenty will be like the first pattern and the first suit made by the first pattern. Also spiritually.
In this twentieth century we go back to Jesus, the first pattern and His ministry and faith and spirit and love and teaching and example and everything, and then we will have all there is in Jesus and Him who is the first pattern. Also we will have in the ministry and church, everything the same as the first century church that was made by Jesus the first pattern. I hope that there were people who did this in the centuries between the first century and the twentieth century, but we have no records and we do not know. God knows. Whether they did nor not does not make a bit of difference to our salvation. The pattern in Jesus was always there waiting for the sincere and honest to go back to.
~~~ Nathan: There has been records preserved by the Vaudois historians of their Itinerant apostles ministry and fellowship through down the ages for 1800 yrs.... Yes, I agree about God is able to raise up sincere and honest men and women to "continue on" Jesus and apostles' Itinerant ministry and fellowship pattern that Jesus as the Way, and Truth to Salvation.
Third, in the Old Testament there were two ministries. First the Levite and the priesthood of Aaron ministry, and second the prophet ministry. (Jeremiah and Ezekiel were both priests and prophets). There was an unbroken chain of priesthood ministry from Aaron to Christ, but there were missing links in the prophet ministry during this same period of time from Moses and Aaron to Christ. Transferring that as an object lesson over to the period of time between Christ and now, there was an unbroken continuance of the priesthood ministry of Christ in heaven from the first century to the twentieth century. Heb 7:25, “He ever liveth to make intercession to God.”
However, we have no written record on earth concerning the New Testament ministry that was established by Christ during the period between the first century and the twentieth century. Whether there were or were not broken periods during this time, God knows and that is sufficient. Matt 16:16-18. If people receive true revelation from the Father, that is the rock foundation of salvation of Christ, and not having any need of an apostolic secession in recorded history. Sufficient for that.
~~~ Nathan: Yes, we have written record on earth concerning the New Testament Itinearnt ministry and the Church was established by Christ and the apostles during the period between the 1st-18th century. You just have to know Where to look for the information. With today Internet technology we can find almost any information about anything.
Jesus Christ the same as yesterday, today and forever. Jesus said, Upon this ROCK (himself) I will build my Church and the GATES of Hell shall NOT prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18)
|
|
geoff
New Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by geoff on Oct 23, 2007 2:20:04 GMT -5
I too thank you Seeker, for starting an interesting thread. Yes it got sidetracked with all manner of stuff we brought in about celibacy etc.
But the fact remains that there is no evidence of a continuous unbroken connected link between our fellowship and any other similar one, except for the similarities.
In fact there is documented strong evidence that our fellowship as we know it started in the late 1880s, and included those names individuals that our own written records show (worker lists etc)
Its also true that we need not be concerned about this. What happened 110 years ago in Ireland need not influence yours or my salvation. Our salvation is not dependent on getting the details of a ministry system correct. Scripture does not say that it is dependent on that. Thats not to say our system is wrong, nor that we should have another, nor that we are not trying (however successfully) to emulate the NT ministry style. Just that salvation is not dependent on it.
The Vaudois etc are really a distraction from the one pattern (using the Dan Hilton example). They existed a long time, and still today as waldenses, so if we're from them, we're a breakaway from them.
Rather than argue endless geneologies, we should concentrate on what matters - our own relationship with our master.
|
|
|
Post by nathanb on Oct 23, 2007 8:08:57 GMT -5
1) Geoff wrote: I too thank you Seeker, for starting an interesting thread. Yes it got sidetracked with all manner of stuff we brought in about celibacy etc.
But the fact remains that there is no evidence of a continuous unbroken connected link between our fellowship and any other similar one, except for the similarities.
In fact there is documented strong evidence that our fellowship as we know it started in the late 1880s, and included those names individuals that our own written records show (worker lists etc)
Its also true that we need not be concerned about this. What happened 110 years ago in Ireland need not influence yours or my salvation. Our salvation is not dependent on getting the details of a ministry system correct. Scripture does not say that it is dependent on that.
Thats not to say our system is wrong, nor that we should have another, nor that we are not trying (however successfully) to emulate the NT ministry style. Just that salvation is not dependent on it.
The Vaudois etc are really a distraction from the one pattern (using the Dan Hilton example). They existed a long time, and still today as waldenses, so if we're from them, we're a breakaway from them.
Rather than argue endless geneologies, we should concentrate on what matters - our own relationship with our master.
~~~ Nathan: I agree with you 100% we are NOT saved by ONLY put our trust in the Method of Itinerant ministry, the correct form of the Way of how we worship God in spirit or knowning God's true church genealogies through down the ages "WITHOUT being born again FIRST."
We can't get the cart before the horse. First, Jesus said "Except , a man be "Born Again" of water (the word of God) and of the Spirit or he can not enter in the kingdom of God. (John 3:1-6)
We read MOST of the believers in the New Testament Church in the 1st century were born again through the apostles' and the believers through "Hearing" and "Believing" in Jesus Christ as the Truth and Way of Salvation.
Then those who became followers of Christ "Continued steadfastly" in the apostles doctrines, having fellowship with one another, breaking of bread, praying and worshiping God together in spirit and in truth with a singleness of heart and mind. (Acts 2:41-46)
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God. For whosover shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be SAVED. (Romans 10:13-17)
We don't want to put the Cart before the horse! by placing our Faith and Salvation in the form of Itinerant ministry, the place of our worship "WITHOUT" being born again FIRST! through hearing the Word, and the Spirit of God by accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord God and Savior.
Having a personal and close relationship with our heavenly Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ should be our main goal in this life.
|
|
|
Post by WhoWhatWhy on Oct 30, 2007 19:10:39 GMT -5
Where does our FAITH come in here?. Why is this still a QUESTION? We will only be misleading others when WE ARE NOT FAITHFUL TO OUR VOWS to follow in Jesus' footsteps - deny our 'flesh' and honor Jesus' name each and every day!
|
|
fire
New Member
Posts: 18
|
Post by fire on Oct 30, 2007 21:47:13 GMT -5
Where does our FAITH come in here?. Why is this still a QUESTION? We will only be misleading others when WE ARE NOT FAITHFUL TO OUR VOWS to follow in Jesus' footsteps - deny our 'flesh' and honor Jesus' name each and every day! how can one mislead by pointing to Christ? that is our job when it comes to others, to point to Christ and him alone. he is our answer, he is our joy, he is the path, and he is the only reason to give praise. we mislead when we point to anything that is not Christ.
|
|
|
Post by nancye on Oct 31, 2007 3:54:50 GMT -5
All I know is that I am in fellowship with a ministry that works when humanly it should NOT work. It's in line with Scripture. My fellowship is real. It is of faith. I am accountable for and to what has been shown to me. Could there be tares among the wheat even in this ministry? I believe that is possible. Our Father, however, who has given us of His Spirit remains the Husbandman. His Son is the "true vine". (John 15)We are the branches both "saint and servant". Our primary relationship is with our Father and His Son through His Spirit. That keeps us safe. Safe in the Shepherd's fold............ Sun. in the gospel mtg we heard from John 10:1 "Verily, verily I say unto you, He that entereth not in by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. :2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep :3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice; and he calleth his own sheep by name, and he leadeth them out. :4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice". :7 ....."I say unto you I am the door of the sheep". It was pointed out that the "porter" is like the Holy Spirit. Verse 16: "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd". :13 "The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling and careth not for the sheep. :14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine."
Speaking of faith. I love 1Peter1 re: the trial of our faith. :9 "Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of our souls. :10 Of which salvation the prophets enquired and searched diligently who prophesied of the grace that should come to you: :11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. :12 Unto whom it was revealed that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by (THEM THAT HAVE PREACHED THE GOSPEL UNTO YOU WITH THE HOLY GHOST SENT DOWN FROM HEAVEN); which things the angels desire to look into." Also see Eph. 3.
This is the the same ministry that we have the privilege of knowing................. And now we are accountable because we have been shown that it is one and the same with the ministry of the NT. We know because of the fruit that has been borne. And we are thankful. nancye
|
|
|
Post by Alan C on Oct 31, 2007 4:03:51 GMT -5
Amen nancye
|
|
|
Post by nathanb on Oct 31, 2007 9:45:24 GMT -5
I would like to add my heartily AMEN to your post, Nancy. because we have tasted the Holy Spirit's dwelling in ourlives, and the lives of others in the fellowship. It has changed my life for the better than what I had before I met the workers.
I have peace of God in my life now, the joy in knowing the purpose of life which is to live for Him by bringing glory to His name.
I was like unto the man called LEGION in the Gospel before I met I heard the Gospel from the workers. Their Gospel message of Christ gave me hope, peace, joy and Salvation through believing, and accepting Jesus as my Lord God and Savior.
|
|
|
Post by nancyeinspahr on Nov 1, 2007 17:09:01 GMT -5
Yes, Nathan, I have read your account of your testimony on your Topics in the Bible website. I was smiling as I read on your last post here about the peace and joy you know, and first knew, when you responded to God's Holy Spirit versus what you had experienced in the religion you become a had become a part of prior. Peace and joy are fruit of the Spirit and not really knowing you I still can see love shining through what you write when you post. And yes I can see other fruit as I read of your experiences. So that makes me glad. It must have been absolutely horrible to have felt like Legion! How good it must have been to have been delivered from that. To me, beholding fruit is how we recognize the Spirit in each other and then know fellowship when that happens. Another thread of thought is being posted re: whether we should believe we are the only ones that are right. We just know and understand that God's Spirit will not be the author of chaos. And while we cannot really know where another is in his/her journey as far as knowing God, and we cannot judge anyone else's motives, we can recognize whether or not the spirit in them is in agreement with the Spirit that we know is from God. There are MANY spirits. Satan is the great COUNTERFEITer. I have heard it mentioned that each religion has its own spirit or god. They may even in their BEING believe that they are AGAINST Satan. Someone did mention just the other day, whom I trust, that Satan will use those who aren't aligned with ANY god especially in the last days as he fights his greatest battle to rid the earth of RIGHTEOUSNESS. Could they be the tares among the wheat that Christ speaks about? (Matt 13.) Serious to think about......... Matt 13:43 comes to mind now. "When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and finding none. :44 Then he saith, I will return to my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findedth it empty, swept, and garnished. :45 Then goeth he, and taketh seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even shall it be with this wicked generation." These verses come after it is recorded that the scribes and Pharisees said: :38 ......."we would see a sign from thee." I notice that in this account recorded in Luke 11:23: Christ says: "He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth." (also found in Matt 12:30) InMatt 12: when he was being accused of casting out devils by Beelzebub, the prince of devils" in verse 24 He said "But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you." !! So now I think of what Paul says in Eph 6:10 "Finally my brethern, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. :11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. :12 for we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. :13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. LIGHT will ALWAYS overcome darkness. And we are thankful! In Christ, nancye
|
|
|
Post by nancyeinspahr on Nov 1, 2007 17:21:30 GMT -5
Richard, I am am having trouble posting under "nancye". When I do try it says that that name is already registered with the site and that I am in error. So nancyeinspahr=nancye. The only time "nancye" worked is when there is a specific place at the end of post that says "short reply". That option isn't always given. So really don't know what to do aobut that. Also under "add tags" I guess I don't know how to change ink color or script. I click on it but nothing happens except for a letter placed in parenthesis. Can you explain what I should do re: the above 2 matters? (the yellow smiley won't print either). Thanks! nancye nancyeinspahr
|
|
|
Post by nancyeinspahr on Nov 1, 2007 17:29:51 GMT -5
I hesitate to use this format but don't know how else to access your help. Wanted to add to the previous post that my email address is: nancyeinspahr@yahoo.com Standing True
guess you would probably figure that out. anyway thanks. nancye nancyeinspahr
|
|