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Post by Jesse Lackman on Oct 16, 2007 22:10:16 GMT -5
I should have said, "Don't know if knowing it matters".
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Post by Emy on Oct 16, 2007 23:22:14 GMT -5
Jesse, Ephesians tells us that the Spirit we are given is the "earnest" of our inheritance. To me that says that we will be getting more. Therefore, we are not 100% divine?
(I'm not too good at logic, though!)
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Post by Otto on Oct 18, 2007 20:45:05 GMT -5
Hmm, this subject is one for theological debate, and I have read a few.
I think the word 'deity' is ambiguous?
If we all understood this word deity then we would understand this question better, and the answer therein.
Most people are afraid to ask God for the answer, because they do not know who God is. If they knew that Jesus was God, then they would be asking Jesus if Jesus was deity, but not understanding that Jesus is a part of the devine family of God....but the Father is God, and Jesus Knows God is His Father, and is the Father of all that will be born again of His spirit.
Jesus is not omniscient as only God is Good, and grammatically God is the shortened form of 'Good' And God knows when His Son Jesus will return to this earth to claim His preordained bride.
I hope some thoughtful person will bail me out of this debate, as it turns the whole plan of God into a serious problem with semantics. God is God, Jesus is Jesus Yes they are both part of the godhead {understood by all} If we want to replace ''godhead'' with the word ''trinity'' , the debate is only about how we understand the trinity, and this is also a very ambiguous word, which cannot be understood. imho
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fire
New Member
Posts: 18
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Post by fire on Oct 18, 2007 21:19:31 GMT -5
Jesus is God the Son.
Jesus is not God the Father.
Jesus is fully God.
The Father is fully God.
There is only one God.
In the bible, Jesus was labeled as being the first and last, creator, judge, rock, the IAM, king, light, savior, shepherd.
These same labels were also given to YAHWEH.
Jesus was called God by the Father, by Thomas and by Isaiah.
It also states he was worshiped and prayed to, even though Jesus said only to pray and worship God.
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geoff
New Member
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Post by geoff on Oct 19, 2007 2:04:48 GMT -5
"Fire"
thats a nice summary, but whats your point?
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fire
New Member
Posts: 18
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Post by fire on Oct 19, 2007 2:25:03 GMT -5
"Fire" thats a nice summary, but whats your point? i do not understand your question.
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Post by otto on Oct 19, 2007 11:49:48 GMT -5
I think the word 'deity' is ambiguous? If we all understood this word deity then we would understand this question better, and the answer therein. Most people are afraid to ask God for the answer, because they do not know who God is. If they would be asking Jesus if Jesus was deity, understanding that Jesus is a part of the devine family of God....but the Father is God, and Jesus Knows God is His Father, and is the Father of all that will be born again of His spirit. Jesus is not omniscient as only God is Good, and grammatically God is the shortened form of 'Good' And God knows when His Son Jesus will return to this earth to claim His preordained bride. it turns the whole plan of God into a serious problem with semantics. God is God, Jesus is Jesus Yes they are both part of the godhead {understood by all} If we want to replace ''godhead'' with the word ''trinity'' , the debate is only about how we understand the trinity, and this is also a very ambiguous word, which cannot be understood. imho With the resurrection of Jesus, Jesus is no longer a human being, but is fully a devine being, waiting for God to send Him back to earth second time.
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geoff
New Member
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Post by geoff on Oct 19, 2007 13:53:11 GMT -5
"Fire" thats a nice summary, but whats your point? i do not understand your question. Was asking what point you were trying to make in your post. Another way of saying that is that I didn't understand the pojnt you were trying to make in your post. I had assumed that you were trying to make a point. Might have been wrong?
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Post by nathanb on Oct 23, 2007 13:00:01 GMT -5
Yes, I do and the message on your website has helped to clear up much confusion in my Faith.
Thank you, Nathan.Peace In Him, Richard ~~~ Nathan: Hi, here is a good article Jesus is God or Lord written by a worker in USA who was born and raised in this fellowship.
JESUS IS GOD
Written By a 2x2 Worker John W. in the USA (2005)
(Permission Is Granted To Post This Article)
Names of different 2x2s workers who teach Jesus is God listed by ex-workers and friends. Jesus is God the Son NOT God the Father. Jesus Christ the Son of God NOT God the Father:
George Walker, Jack Carroll, Dave Christie, Tom Lyness, Tharold Sylvester, Leo Stancliff, Mable Gibson, Leslie White, Stan Chamberlain, Maurice Close, Everett Blair, Carson Cowan,
Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Isaiah 7:14. "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel." (Immanuel means "God with us.") The scriptures contain many names and titles given to the Lord Jesus, such as the ones included in these verses. The more we understand the many aspects of His nature and the unique roles that He plays in the experience of mankind, the better we can glorify Him, as He so richly deserves. The better we know Him, the more we love and appreciate Him for who He is in His infinite, eternal, divine nature as well as for the greatness of the work He has accomplished.
As a child growing up with constant exposure to God's word and the message of the Lord Jesus, I most often thought of Him as the Son of God, since that is a description that the scripture often uses to refer to Him. As years passed, however, I began to see that at times the scriptures refer to Jesus simply as "God" -- as in the above verses from Isaiah -- instead of "Son of God". This seemed a paradox, and is a point of great confusion for people who persist in thinking according to the familiar human patterns. We find it hard to understand how someone could ever be both God and God's Son at the same time. However, the infinity of God's nature is definitely not limited as our human mind is limited. As we open ourselves to His guidance and teaching, His Spirit enables us to see beyond what the human spirit can perceive.
"God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." (John 4:24) It helps us to grasp more about God when we understand that "God" is not necessarily used as a proper name denoting one particular individual as we think of individuals, but is rather one particular spirit or nature. It is for this reason that "God" can refer not only to the eternal Father, but also to His Son, our Lord Jesus.
Again, we need to lay aside human thinking patterns as we contemplate the unique nature of the Lord Jesus. Though He was conceived miraculously in the womb of His virgin mother by the Holy Spirit, He was not half-human, half-divine, as we would normally think of human beings that possess a part of their father's nature and a part of their mother's. Jesus was all divine, possessing all of the nature of His Father, as well as being all human, possessing all of our nature.
Several scriptures help us understand this truth: "In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form." (Colossians 2:9) "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness." (Philippians 2:6-7) "He had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people." (Hebrews 2:17)
Because the Lord Jesus possesses all the nature of His Father, the scriptures call Him God as well as Son of God. Here are a few examples: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. " (John 1:1, 14) "We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true -- even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life." (1 John 5:20) "About the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever.'" (Hebrews 1:8)
The Old Testament in the original Hebrew language frequently uses a unique, unpronounceable name of God, YHWH. This name was considered so sacred that when the scriptures were read, the Jewish readers did not even attempt to pronounce the name, but instead substituted the word "Adonai", which means "Lord".
This practice carried over into the New Testament; the writers who cited scriptures from the Old Testament wrote "Kurios", the Greek equivalent of "Adonai" ("Lord"), instead of the unpronounceable sacred name. The translators of most English versions of the Bible have chosen to translate YHWH as "LORD", written with four capital letters to differentiate it from "lord" and "Lord", words which denote "owner" or "master" (either human or divine) instead of the unique sacred name.
The point of all this is that a number of times where we read "LORD" in the Old Testament, it is making direct reference to Jesus instead of God the Father. See the following examples: "My eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty." (Isaiah 6:5) Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him. (John 12:41) "You, O LORD, sit enthroned forever; your renown endures through all generations." (Psalm 102:12)
(Hebrews 1:8) which we have already quoted, assures us that this psalm is speaking of the Son. "'The days are coming,' declares the LORD, 'when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The LORD Our Righteousness.'" (Jeremiah 23:5-6) All of these verses and a number of others show us that our Lord Jesus is, along with His Father, the LORD of the Old Testament, the one who is proclaimed to be the only true God. "All kingdoms on earth may know that you alone, O LORD, are God." (2 Kings 19:19)
When God appeared to Moses in the burning bush, He identified Himself in a unique way: "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" (Exodus 3:14) The Lord Jesus used this same phrase to identify Himself to the Jews in His day: "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was born, I am!' (John 8:58)
While the English grammar may not convey the distinction as clearly as the original languages, it was very clear to the Jews that heard Him that He was identifying Himself with God, the eternal I AM, and because of this supposed blasphemy, they picked up stones to stone Him, just as they did when He proclaimed, "I and the Father are one." (John 10:30) True believers, however, see that, far from usurping God's name, power, and authority, Jesus, being God in very nature, deserves our honor, worship, and praise just as the Father does. "All may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him." (John 5:23)
It bears mentioning that when we say Jesus is God or that Father and Son are one, we are not saying that Jesus is the Father or that they are only one person. They are one in the sense that they are perfectly united in nature, in spirit, in purpose, in love, in power, and in every other way.
The nature of their unity is made clear in Jesus' prayer to His Father before the crucifixion. "Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name -- the name you gave me -- so that they may be one as we are one... that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me." (John 17:11, 21-23) Just as God's people can by His Spirit be perfectly united with each other while remaining distinct persons, so it is with the Son and Father: perfectly united in nature, yet readily identifiable as two persons.
Philippians 2:5-11 gives a beautiful picture of the work Jesus accomplished while on earth, also showing a great deal of the relationship between Son and Father: "Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death -- even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
Every step that the Lord Jesus took to become a man, and every step He took as a man was a step of willing, humble obedience to His Father's will, since it was likewise His own will.
Understanding that He was "in very nature God" helps us to understand how greatly He humbled Himself to become a human being. As if it were not enough to take on human nature with its frailty, Jesus was born into a family of the poorest people; so poor they could not even offer the usual lamb for the purification offering after His birth. After some years of exile in Egypt, he was brought up in Nazareth, a town of dubious reputation.
When He was thirty years old, He voluntarily left His home and family, such as they were, and became a homeless vagabond preacher, repeatedly suffering abuse, scorn and disbelief at the hands of those whom He had come to save. At last, after a life of self-denial and sacrifice, he was subjected to the ignominious death of crucifixion. As we contemplate each experience in His life, let us remember, this is not just a man, this is God! A hymn says, "Amazing love! How can it be that Thou, my God, shouldst die for me?" Because of His will to humble Himself so completely for us, He is exalted to the highest place, forever worthy of all our praise and worship.
"Christ in you, the hope of glory." (Colossians 1:27) It is indeed overwhelming to think that this one who is our God, having once taken upon Himself the limitations of human flesh, would choose to do so again and again as He dwells in the believers, yet that is exactly what He does! The scripture gives many pictures of the work He will do as He walks in His people in every generation, including our own. "
(God) made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions -- it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus." (Ephesians 2:5-6) He takes us in all our deadness and gives us divine, eternal life. He gives us access to the fellowship of heaven. "I pray ... that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe.
That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms." (Ephesians 1:18-20) He shares with us the same power by which death was conquered forever in the resurrection! "We are heirs -- heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ." (Romans 8:17) He makes us joint heirs with Himself, sharing with Him in all the richness of the provision of His eternal kingdom. "Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world... I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them." (John 17:24-26)
He shares with us the special love between Him and His Father, making us partakers in the same intimate relationship that they have enjoyed from eternity! No mere man, no angel could ever do for us what our Lord Jesus has done. The more we learn of who He is and how great His power is on our behalf, the more we bow in humble adoration and marvel at what He has done and is doing for us!
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Post by otto on Oct 23, 2007 15:01:37 GMT -5
Yes, I do and the message on your website has helped to clear up much confusion in my Faith.
Thank you, Nathan.Peace In Him, Richard ~~~ Nathan: Hi, here is a good article Jesus is God or Lord written by a worker in USA who was born and raised in this fellowship.
JESUS IS GOD
Written By a 2x2 Worker John W. in the USA (2005)
(Permission Is Granted To Post This Article)
Names of different 2x2s workers who teach Jesus is God listed by ex-workers and friends. Jesus is God the Son NOT God the Father. Jesus Christ the Son of God NOT God the Father:
George Walker, Jack Carroll, Dave Christie, Tom Lyness, Tharold Sylvester, Leo Stancliff, Mable Gibson, Leslie White, Stan Chamberlain, Maurice Close, Everett Blair, Carson Cowan,
Isaiah 9:6 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. , see that, far from usurping God's name, power, and authority, Jesus, being God in very nature, deserves our honor, worship, and praise just as the Father does. "All may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him." (John 5:23)
It bears mentioning that when we say Jesus is God or that Father and Son are one, we are not saying that Jesus is the Father or that they are only one person. They are one in the sense that they are perfectly united in nature, in spirit, in purpose, in love, in power, and in every other way.
The nature of their unity is made clear in Jesus' prayer to His Father before the crucifixion. "Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name -- the name you gave me -- so that they may be one as we are one... that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.
He took as a man was a step of willing, humble obedience to His Father's will, since it was likewise His own will.
Understanding that He was "in very nature God" helps us to understand how greatly He humbled Himself to become a human being. As if it were not enough to take on human nature with its frailty, (God) made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions -- it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ We are heirs -- heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ." (Romans 8:17) He makes us joint heirs with Himself, sharing with Him in all the richness
He shares with us the special love between Him and His Father,] If we could please God , Himself, with this discussion, then I would love to contribute a measure of understanding, if so be to create division within those destined to be heirs, along side the very son of God, then I will abstain. The worlds christianity has prided itself in this division ever since the true christians were executed in Rome for believing in the Lord Jesus, yet after the mass executions of those that best understood who Jesus was, this ''belief'' was hijacked by the Roman government, i suspect as another form of taxation, through tything, as this was not a teaching that Jesus taught to his disciples, on how to collect tythes. Neither was there teaching to suggest that Jesus was God, as over and over He claimed to be the son of God. Jesus also taught that His believers were to be One with Him and His Father, and that we could be born again into God's family as brothers and sisters to Jesus, and sons and daughters of God... Certainly as the gist of this sermon suggests, the Jesus and the Father are not the same person, YET I FIRMLY believe with all my heart and soul, that God is the Father, and they are the same person. and the Father is as much Jesus Father , as it would be correct to say Jesus is the son of God, but it is not correct to say that Jesus is God is the son of God, {God being the son of God, would truely be a mystery} I do not wish to promote false doctrine with this posting, and if I be in error, may I be gently corrected, for so grave an error, yet I feel compelled to voice what I consider truth, in the face of misunderstood comments that I have made, that namely being that I will be misunderstood by some if I say that YES I do believe Jesus was the exactness in nature of God, yet Jesus was not in the capacity to heir anything to His Father, and scripture certainly is silent about this, yet Jesus learned obedience to God, His Father, by the things that He suffered. Jesus when praying to God, His Father, asked God, to take away the cup {cross} He was about to bear, and even said 'Not my will, but thine be done'....and with the final realization that God was not going to remove this cup {death on cross} He uttered, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me {to let Him die and be seperated from Him} If you believe this seperation took place, then it would be impossible for Jesus to be God. in my so very humble opinion..... Jesus is God in the flesh, He is the word of God, but I cringe to say He is God, except when we say it symbolically, meaning that symbolically {as the word of God} when we see Jesus, we see the Father, who is the God of all. Oh I am certain that we cannot all agree, but please remember my desire is to consider Jesus as my elder brother, and God as my Father, and WE are joint heirs, along with Christ Jesus of all that God planned for HIS heavenly family {the godhead,}
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Post by spirit or doctrine on Oct 24, 2007 11:00:09 GMT -5
Given a choice of having the perfect spirit, or the perfect doctrine, I think I would choose having the perfect spirit. What we think we know will pass away, and the truth will last forever and ever. We can never learn what truth is, unless we have the right spirit.
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selah
Junior Member
Currently Reading 1 Samuel
Posts: 77
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Post by selah on Oct 24, 2007 14:19:21 GMT -5
We can never learn what truth is, unless we have the Spirit of the living God indwelling us. He is the "right spirit".
Is that what you meant?
Blessings, Linda
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Post by wondering too on Oct 24, 2007 18:09:06 GMT -5
We can never learn what truth is, unless we have the Spirit of the living God indwelling us. He is the "right spirit". Is that what you meant? Blessings, Linda Truthfully, I cannot say. Is it wrong to be justified by faith or by works? Who can justify us? Can we justify our own self? If not, then how is it that only God can be justified ?
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fire
New Member
Posts: 18
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Post by fire on Oct 24, 2007 21:45:12 GMT -5
We can never learn what truth is, unless we have the Spirit of the living God indwelling us. He is the "right spirit". Is that what you meant? Blessings, Linda Truthfully, I cannot say. Is it wrong to be justified by faith or by works? Who can justify us? Can we justify our own self? If not, then how is it that only God can be justified ? We are justified by faith alone by God alone. Do you need me to post the verses that state this?
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selah
Junior Member
Currently Reading 1 Samuel
Posts: 77
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Post by selah on Oct 25, 2007 0:49:47 GMT -5
We are justified by faith and the evidence of that living faith is the works that follow.
Jesus Christ.
No.
Only He is perfect.
Blessings, Linda
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