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Post by nathanb on Nov 10, 2008 12:27:02 GMT -5
1) Hi Clearday, I should have mentioned Christ's sacrifice on the cross which takes away the sins of the believer. When this is done, the believer or follower of Christ, who has had his/her sins washed away is left "perfect" or as you say "complete." ~~~N9: I agree with both of you on this.2) We could follow Christ's teachings to a tee, but if our sins are not taken care of, then we are not perfect. For our part the "perfect" thing to do is to follow Jesus in his teachings. We cannot do the other part which is forgiving our own sins, but that is done for us by God to achieve the perfect state. ~~~ I agree with you again.2) What I was really trying to address was the mistaken belief promoted by workers and others that the "perfect" thing for a person to do is to sell all, become homeless and itinerant and then go forth an preach the gospel, sowing your life as seed etc. This creates a two tier sytem with one group being more holy than the remainder who somehow do not achieve perfection due to leading normal lives. ~~~ The two tier system in the New Testament covenant is NOTHING new! it's just like in the Old Testament convenant.
1) The Levitcal priesthood to be in charge of the Temple services, animals sacrifice, reading of the law, etc... 2) the 11 tribes to support, supplies all of the Levitical priesthood tribe.
~~ I don't see one group is holier than the other at all. It was God's instruction and He wanted them to follow as He commanded because it WORKS! His way is Prefect.~~~~ The Vaudois apostles 70-1800 A.D.
Some of the Brethren devoted themselves entirely to Traveling and Ministering the Word were called "The Perfect" and in accordance with the Lord's words in (Matthew 19:21) Jesus said to the rich young man, "If thou will be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. "
They possessed nothing, had no home, and literally acted upon this command. It was recognized that ALL are not called to such a path. The majority of Believers, while acknowledge that they and ALL they have belong to Christ, should serve him while remaining in their families and Continuing in their usual occupations.
Those whom they called "Apostles" played an important part in their testimony. While the elders and overseers remain in their homes, and churches. The "Apostles" traveled continually, visiting the churches. A distinction was made between those called the "Perfect," and others of the Followers of Christ, based on the fact that in the Gospel some were called to Sell All that they had and follow Christ. While other of His disciples were equally called to serve Him in the surrounding in which He found them.
The Waldensian "Apostles" had No property or goods or homes or Family if they had these they left them. Their life was one of Self-Denial, Hardship and danger. They traveled in utmost Simplicity, without Money, Without Second suit, their needs being supplied by the Believers among whom they ministered the Word.
~~~ The Waldensians apostles always went 2 and 2, an elder and a younger man, of whom the Latter waited on his older companion. Their visits were highly esteemed, and they were treated with every token of respect and affection. They never asked for anything indeed, many undertook serious medical Studies that they might be able to care for the bodies of those who they met with.
The name "Friends of God" was often given to them. Great care was used in commending men to such service, since it was felt that one devoted man was worth more than a hundred whom call to do this ministry was less evident.
The "Apostle" chose poverty, but otherwise it was considered a Principle duty of each church to provide for their poor. Often, when private Houses were insufficient and simple meeting rooms were built, there would be houses attached to these where their poor or ages could live and care for. Regular individual reading of the scriptures, regular daily family
Worship, and frequent Conferences were among the most Highly Prized means of maintaining spiritual life. These saints would take no part in government; they said the Apostles were often brought before tribunals, but it is not ever said they sat as judges. ~~~ God knew exactly what He was doing when He established the two tier systems in the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.... It takes two tiers system for it to work perfectly and smoothly.
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Post by nathanb on Nov 10, 2008 12:34:07 GMT -5
1) Nathan, Jesus explained what he meant by "perfect" through following him during his sermon on the mount. ~~~ You're talking two different meanings of perfect, Jesus sermons on the mount and in Matt. 19:21.2) Please, please, please, when you quote Matt 19 do not leave out the very important portions which show the context of that dialogue. It looks DELIBERATE. ~~~ I have posted the chapters and verses so the readers can read the whole situation for themselves.3) That young man came to Jesus and asked him what must he do to inhereit eternal life. Note, he is asking about his SALVATION. ~~~ According to the young man's decision who went away sorrowful because he wanted to keep his riches. Rich young ruler knew the answer was NO, Salvation for Him. He did not believe in Jesus or becoming one of His own disciples.4) The dialogue ends with the disciples asking Jesus who then can be saved. Jesus tells them it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to inherit the kingdom of God. ~~~ He would have been SAVED if the rich young ruler LEFT his position teacher of the law and came and follow Jesus as one of his disciples. Jesus offered the young rich ruler a place in His own Itinerant ministry.5) The dialogue starts, continues and finishes on the subject of salvation. Any thoughts of ministry is an erroneous side-step. Why did you leave out the clear references in the passage to Salvation ? ~~~ Yes, the dialogue began with Salvation question, the young man knowledge of obeying and keeping the Old Testament law from his youth.... Jesus saw godly qualities in this young man life and offered the rich young ruler a place in His ministry. On the same chapter Peter said to Jesus, "We have forshaken ALL and FOLLOWED thee! what shall be have therefore?" (Matthew 19:27-29
Jesus said unto THEM! (the 12) "... ye who have FOLLOWED me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit upon the 12 throne of His glory ye, also shall sit upon the 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel.
And EVERYONE! that has forshaken houses, brothers, sisters, or father, mother, wife, or children, lands for MY name's sake shall receive 100 folds, and shall inherit everlasting life.6) You mention the 12 and the 70, who were not told to "sell all." Can't you see how the 12 were amazed when the rich young man was told to sell all, when they had not been ? They were asked to follow Jesus and "forsake all," i.e. put Jesus first in their lives, which they did. However, they still had their homes, fishing boats, families etc. ~~~ Peter said in Matthew 19:27-28 the 12 had LEFT all and FOLLOWED thee! they left their occupation, fishing boats behind and followed Jesus as His training Itinerant preachers.
In I Cor. 4:11 It VERY Clear! We read Paul and his fellow-worker LEFT ALL (homes, families, occupations) behind as Itinerant preachers of the Gospel.7) The rich young man's riches were his "first love." He could not put Jesus ahead of this and Jesus saw that. In order to obtain salvation he needed to get rid of his wealth because it was an obstacle to him following Jesus. He was an example of someone having to sell all in order to forsake all, or in other words, sell all in order to put Jesus first in his life. It was his love for his wealth which was greater than his love for God. That is why his wealth needed to go. ~~~ Jesus had rich disciples (Nicodemus, Zacheus, Joseph Armathias (sp?) and they did NOT Sell ALL to be Jesus disciples.8) The disciples were rightly amazed. This seemed even more severe than what they had been required to do. Also, they likely saw that rich young man, who had kept the law from his youth up, as richly belessed by God. In the OT riches and wealth were often regarded as blessings from God for pleasing him. In this context the disciples were bewildered. They would have thought he was in favour with God and in a better position than themselves. ~~~ You see under the Old Testament system.... the priesthoods were NOT to SELL all because it was STATIONARY! fixed in one place Jerusalem temple (Israel)....
Under the New Covenant the apostles Itinerant preaches were to take the Gospel to ALL nations NOT staying FIXED in one place! No need to accumulate riches, homes.... TOO burdensome! because the disciples (just like the 11 tribes of Israel) will SUPPLY ALL of their needs.9) No wonder they considered their own position and asked "who then can be saved." The thing is they were making Christ the first love in their lives. They had forsaken all, but had not sold all. ~~~ In the gospel the 12 and 70 apostles had forshaken/Left their business, homes but in the book of Acts of the apostles they UNDERSTOOD their callings clearly as Itinerant preachers of the Gospel to Jews and Gentiles nations. They SOLD ALL (I Cor. 4:11)10) Do you not agree that Stephen, Phillip et al had not sold all, yet they taught and preached the gospel, yet the DID "forsake all," i.e. made Christ their first love. ~~~ The disciples who were NOT called as full time Itinerant preachers of the Gospel NOT to SELL all because they have their own families to provide for.
So, Stephen and Phillip were disciples NOT apostles... Phillip, the evangelist had a family with 4 daughters. He wasn't asked to SELL ALL he had to have job making money to provide for his own family.11) Preachers, just like any other Christian must forsake all. They are not required to sell all, unless of course their possessions are their first love, in which case they must "go !" ~~~ NOT according to the Jesus and apostles New Testament Church way of doing thing.
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Post by truthseeker on Nov 11, 2008 0:21:35 GMT -5
Do you have permission from these folks to post their words on another discussion board?
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Post by nathanb on Nov 11, 2008 10:34:43 GMT -5
Do you have permission from these folks to post their words on another discussion board? ~~~ What they posted is public domain and it is not copyright message board.
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Post by nathanb on Nov 11, 2008 10:36:35 GMT -5
1) Ott2 wrote:
Nathan, If we are to take it that you are correct about the rich young man in Matt19; and that Jesus was talking about ministry, and that he, the young man was indeed being called to ministry. How could it be for a young single man to go to one of your gospel meetings, and make a profession of faith; but not become a worker? How could that man be saved if your interpretation of the Matt19 passage is correct?
~~~ In order for the rich young ruler (teacher of the law) to be saved he had to be born again just like Jesus told Nicodemus, another teacher of the law, who came to see Jesus in the night.
Jesus said to Nicodemus," That whosoever believes in Him (Jesus) should NOT perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:15)
The rich young ruler must believe in Jesus as his Redeemer, the Savior and anointed Christ who died for him. Then he must become a disciple of Jesus and continue to the end.
It tells us in John 6:66 many of Jesus' disciples went back and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the 12 "Will ye go away also?" then Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art the Christ, the son of the living God.
~~~ There were more than 12 college students professed when the workers had the Bible studies on the college campus. ALL of us were singles many of us often talking about going in the work but 4 offered but only 2 of us went in the work. The rest had families, and some of them became church elders.
God doesn't call every single person to go in the work only a few are chosen because He needs many church elders for Sunday morning meetings to be pastors of their own churches/assembly where the believers gather together to celebrate, commemorate Christ's Passover, and many open homes of the friends to help the workers out.
~~~ From Ronhall: I once asked an older worker a similar question, more like, what criteria do you use in accepting someone for the work.
This was 40 - 50 years ago, so I'm scratching my memory cells, but his answer was:
Need several strengths:
Strong in faith. Strong mentally. Strong emotionally. Strong in health. Strong in understanding of the Scriptures. Strong in having a good reputation. Strong in the strength of gentleness..
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Post by truthseeker on Nov 11, 2008 14:47:56 GMT -5
Do you have permission from these folks to post their words on another discussion board? ~~~ What they posted is public domain and it is not copyright message board.So you won't mind if I post this where they can see it?
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Post by nathanb on Nov 12, 2008 0:13:16 GMT -5
~~~ What they posted is public domain and it is not copyright message board. So you won't mind if I post this where they can see it? ~~~ Sure, go ahead my 2x2 message address board is posted on the Truth message board so they know where it is every time I write.
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selah
Junior Member
Currently Reading 1 Samuel
Posts: 77
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Post by selah on Nov 21, 2008 19:51:56 GMT -5
Hi Nathan,
Hebrews 7, especially verses 11-28 tell a different story. It says that the new priesthood is NOT like the old one. In fact it is not even the Levitical priesthood, but the order after Melchizedek. Jesus was not a Levite, yet He is our high priest. It's a DIFFERENT order.
12For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.
18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.
23Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood.
We have only ONE high priest, and ALL other believers are part of the priesthood, since we ALL can enter the Holy of Holies now...through Christ, our high priest after the order of Melchizedek. It is quite different from the Levitical/Aaronic priesthood.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by nathanb on Nov 22, 2008 0:00:27 GMT -5
Hi Nathan, Hebrews 7, especially verses 11-28 tell a different story. It says that the new priesthood is NOT like the old one. In fact it is not even the Levitical priesthood, but the order after Melchizedek. Jesus was not a Levite, yet He is our high priest. It's a DIFFERENT order. 12For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.18The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19(for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. 23Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood.We have only ONE high priest, and ALL other believers are part of the priesthood, since we ALL can enter the Holy of Holies now...through Christ, our high priest after the order of Melchizedek. It is quite different from the Levitical/Aaronic priesthood. Blessings, Linda ~~~ Yes, I agree and am aware of that... what I am trying to say is.... in the OLD Testament God had the 11 tribes to support the tribe of Levi of their needs so they could be caretakers of the temple, rituals, ceremonies, etc..
~~~ In the New Testament the disciples/followers to support, help, supply homes, food, clothing, money for the Itinerant preachers of the Gospel this way they could dedicate their lives, full time in the work of God..... The supporting system is almost the same One group support another..
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Post by lacpastor on Nov 22, 2008 9:25:10 GMT -5
This is a fundamental flaw in your thinking- it is not biblical. Under the law there were classes of God's people- classes as we understand them socially. Under grace, this is all done away with, and while there are different offices and giftings, there is no class distinction.
We al support each other as needed and able. Even Paul, the most itinerant of the itinerant, worked to support himself. He knew (learned) how to be satisfied with much or with little. He did not ask for support because he was an apostle, but because he was in need and knew that believers care for each other.
The system from the law has been done away with. Jesus is the only One in a class different from us. He is our Priest, Savior, Sanctifier , Healer, and King.
It is not that one system was replaced with a different one, but that all things have been fulfilled by Jesus, who is no respector of persons, and it is His voice speaking through the apostle Paul who tells us to do the same.
Karl
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selah
Junior Member
Currently Reading 1 Samuel
Posts: 77
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Post by selah on Nov 22, 2008 11:52:20 GMT -5
Nice to see you Karl! For you and for Nathan, It's not only the f&w who have fashioned a ministry similar to the Levitical priesthood. That seems to be the primary model for most denominations, and perhaps the reason we miss the plan of the Aaronic priesthood, or the order of Melchizedek. That should be our model, since Jesus is the High Priest of that order. Although I believe the use of the Levitical order is an error and has caused a lot of problems in the body of believers, God in His mercy and wisdom, continues to love us and grow us, in spite of our "format." But, I wonder how different our experience in the Church would be, and how our affectiveness in our world would change, if we were to fully embrace the model of the Melchizedek priesthood. Blessings, Linda
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Post by Karl on Nov 22, 2008 13:15:46 GMT -5
Nice to see you Karl! For you and for Nathan, It's not only the f&w who have fashioned a ministry similar to the Levitical priesthood. That seems to be the primary model for most denominations, and perhaps the reason we miss the plan of the Aaronic priesthood, or the order of Melchizedek. That should be our model, since Jesus is the High Priest of that order. Although I believe the use of the Levitical order is an error and has caused a lot of problems in the body of believers, God in His mercy and wisdom, continues to love us and grow us, in spite of our "format." But, I wonder how different our experience in the Church would be, and how our affectiveness in our world would change, if we were to fully embrace the model of the Aaronic/Melchizedek priesthood. Blessings, Linda You're absolutely spot on, which is why that is the path I am walking with God now. It much more free, and scarier... Karl
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selah
Junior Member
Currently Reading 1 Samuel
Posts: 77
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Post by selah on Nov 22, 2008 16:20:30 GMT -5
;D I hear ya! After a couple years sabbatical from church, I'm presently enjoying sporatic visits. I still feel the same way about it all though. There are likely quite a few of similar thought in my community; I just can't seem to find them! Online fellowship is okay, but I need to enjoy it in person too....thus my return to IC. How about you?
Blessings, Linda
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Post by Karl on Nov 22, 2008 16:51:29 GMT -5
That's kind of where I'm at too, but we still can't see ourselves going back- no anger, just can't support it.
Our kids are a factor in this too, they're doing well, and if anything have an improved relationship with God, and towards others.
I'm going to pm you a bit more...
Thanks Linda!
Karl
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Post by nathanb on Nov 23, 2008 20:38:00 GMT -5
Nice to see you Karl! For you and for Nathan, It's not only the f&w who have fashioned a ministry similar to the Levitical priesthood. That seems to be the primary model for most denominations, and perhaps the reason we miss the plan of the Aaronic priesthood, or the order of Melchizedek. That should be our model, since Jesus is the High Priest of that order. Although I believe the use of the Levitical order is an error and has caused a lot of problems in the body of believers, God in His mercy and wisdom, continues to love us and grow us, in spite of our "format." But, I wonder how different our experience in the Church would be, and how our affectiveness in our world would change, if we were to fully embrace the model of the Aaronic/Melchizedek priesthood. Blessings, Linda ~~~ Jesus' New Testament Itinerant ministry is the order of Melchizedek priesthood NOT the order of Aaron/Levitical priesthood.
Aaron/Levitical priesthood came by family lineage to become priests, NOT so with Melchizedek priesthood.
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