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Post by nathanb on Nov 23, 2008 20:42:13 GMT -5
This is a fundamental flaw in your thinking- it is not biblical. Under the law there were classes of God's people- classes as we understand them socially. Under grace, this is all done away with, and while there are different offices and giftings, there is no class distinction. We al support each other as needed and able. Even Paul, the most itinerant of the itinerant, worked to support himself. He knew (learned) how to be satisfied with much or with little. He did not ask for support because he was an apostle, but because he was in need and knew that believers care for each other. The system from the law has been done away with. Jesus is the only One in a class different from us. He is our Priest, Savior, Sanctifier , Healer, and King. It is not that one system was replaced with a different one, but that all things have been fulfilled by Jesus, who is no respector of persons, and it is His voice speaking through the apostle Paul who tells us to do the same. Karl
~~~ Paul worked to support himself once in awhile because some of his own converts felt he wasn't a true apostle. There were of the false brethren were telling others Paul was a trouble maker.... so he didn't want the support of those who didn't believe he was a true apostle of Christ.
Preaching the gospel of Christ was his full time job. Other churches were glad to send help to support Paul's ministry. |
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karlg
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Post by karlg on Nov 23, 2008 22:29:36 GMT -5
This is a fundamental flaw in your thinking- it is not biblical. Under the law there were classes of God's people- classes as we understand them socially. Under grace, this is all done away with, and while there are different offices and giftings, there is no class distinction. We al support each other as needed and able. Even Paul, the most itinerant of the itinerant, worked to support himself. He knew (learned) how to be satisfied with much or with little. He did not ask for support because he was an apostle, but because he was in need and knew that believers care for each other. The system from the law has been done away with. Jesus is the only One in a class different from us. He is our Priest, Savior, Sanctifier , Healer, and King. It is not that one system was replaced with a different one, but that all things have been fulfilled by Jesus, who is no respector of persons, and it is His voice speaking through the apostle Paul who tells us to do the same. Karl
~~~ Paul worked to support himself once in awhile because some of his own converts felt he wasn't a true apostle. There were of the false brethren were telling others Paul was a trouble maker.... so he didn't want the support of those who didn't believe he was a true apostle of Christ.
Preaching the gospel of Christ was his full time job. Other churches were glad to send help to support Paul's ministry.That's a vague generalization- and not complete. He also did not want to be a burden, or to be accused of taking from others in need. We also do not know absolutely that other apostles did not work to support themselves. Karl |
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Post by nathanb on Nov 24, 2008 1:28:51 GMT -5
~~~ Paul worked to support himself once in awhile because some of his own converts felt he wasn't a true apostle. There were of the false brethren were telling others Paul was a trouble maker.... so he didn't want the support of those who didn't believe he was a true apostle of Christ.
Preaching the gospel of Christ was his full time job. Other churches were glad to send help to support Paul's ministry.That's a vague generalization- and not complete. He also did not want to be a burden, or to be accused of taking from others in need. We also do not know absolutely that other apostles did not work to support themselves. Karl
~~ I have read the Vaudois historical document which stated that their apostles/preachers did not work a second job to support themselves for 1800 yr. because the church supplied and met all of their needs.
I am very positive that most of the apostles in the New Testament didn't need to work another JOB to support themselves because the church makes provide ALL their needs.
They didn't need second jobs to support themselves.
How about you Karl, do you work a second job to support your family as a pastor?
When I was a Pentecostal my pastor had to get a second job to support his family because his salary wasn't enough. |
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karlg
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Post by karlg on Nov 24, 2008 8:52:38 GMT -5
Seriously, why do you turn every discussion into one about personal issues?
First off, while you are convinced that the Vaudois are predecessors of the Fellowship, no one else of note does. This does not make you wrong, but there is no real support for this notion out there.
Secondly, while you or I can believe whar we want, the fact is that there are some things that no one knows absolutely, like if any of the apostles worked to support themselves at all.
And by the way, I did work to supplement my income so I did not burden the church any further.
The work took different forms and it was always for seasons. Why you need to know this, or why it's relevant to what the apostles did or did not do is a mystery to me.
Karl
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Post by nathanb on Nov 24, 2008 10:27:04 GMT -5
1) Seriously, why do you turn every discussion into one about personal issues? ~~~ Nothing personal I am just asking you some simple questions out of curiosity..2) First off, while you are convinced that the Vaudois are predecessors of the Fellowship, no one else of note does. This does not make you wrong, but there is no real support for this notion out there. ~~ The ex-2x2 claimed WI was the first to came up with the 2x2 Itinerant workers ministry and New Testament Church in 1897. My point is NO! he wasn't the first... He could have copied the pattern from the Vaudois, Albigeneses, Cathars, Lollards, or the similiar groups.
The 2x2s have many similiarities to the Vaudois' belief, teachings... predecessors or not I will let the readers decide that for themselves.3) Secondly, while you or I can believe whar we want, the fact is that there are some things that no one knows absolutely, like if any of the apostles worked to support themselves at all. ~~~ Yes, according to my research on the Vaudois apostles/preachers belief and teachings they DID not need a second joy to support themselves most of the time. ALL of theirs need were met by the believers.4) And by the way, I did work to supplement my income so I did not burden the church any further. The work took different forms and it was always for seasons. Why you need to know this, or why it's relevant to what the apostles did or did not do is a mystery to me. ~~~ No mystery at all if you were to follow Jesus and the apostles New Testament Itinerant ministry patterns you wouldn't have to work to support your family.
I admire the small time preachers who have to work second jobs to support their families because they don't get enough salary money..... but when they do this the church suffers in the long run.
When I was a Pentecostal the church pastor always busy, tired from working another job so he didn't have too much time for the congregation. |
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Post by Curiouser on Nov 24, 2008 11:33:28 GMT -5
Linda, I can certainly understand the error in believing that we are to follow the Levitical Order in our day. It would be interesting to hear your explanation of what you consider are the pertinent traits of the Aaronic/Melchizedek priesthood, and just how they differ from the life and teachings of Jesus. I can see the similarity between Jesus and Melchizedek in that neither were of the tribe of Levi, but Aaron? Why do you lump him with Melchizedek? Seems a bit confusing to me. Of course I have no problem in seeing the similarity between Jesus, Melchizedek and the laborers that Jesus sent into the harvest field. None of them were there because of being of the tribe of Levi --they were not of the Levitical Order. I would presume that it will ever be the same as Jesus continues to send out laborers into His harvest fields. Nice to see you Karl!  For you and for Nathan, It's not only the f&w who have fashioned a ministry similar to the Levitical priesthood. That seems to be the primary model for most denominations, and perhaps the reason we miss the plan of the Aaronic priesthood, or the order of Melchizedek. That should be our model, since Jesus is the High Priest of that order. Although I believe the use of the Levitical order is an error and has caused a lot of problems in the body of believers, God in His mercy and wisdom, continues to love us and grow us, in spite of our "format." But, I wonder how different our experience in the Church would be, and how our affectiveness in our world would change, if we were to fully embrace the model of the Aaronic/Melchizedek priesthood. Blessings, Linda |
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selah
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Post by selah on Nov 24, 2008 14:09:19 GMT -5
Speaking of Aaron: And to me!! Thanks for the correction. I edited the post. Blessings, Linda |
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selah
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Currently Reading 1 Samuel
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Post by selah on Nov 24, 2008 14:45:25 GMT -5
From what I understand, Melchizedek means King of Righteousness. This blend of King and Priest is what testifies of Jesus.
The order of Mechizedek existed before the Aaronic/Levitical order. Genesis 14:18. (Interesting mention of the bread and wine there.)
When I think of the Levitical Priesthood, I think of rules and regulations. That order was instituted in Leviticus chapters 8-10. When I think of the Melchizedek Priesthood, I think of liberty and the priesthood of all believers.
Hebrews 8 is helpful concerning Jesus' office as high priest.
I think a shared study of these priestly orders would be most interesting, and educational. I don't know very much about it all, but would love to learn.
Blessings,
Linda
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