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Post by nathanb on May 26, 2008 10:09:11 GMT -5
~~ N9: This topic was discussed on The Truth Message board so I copied and posted it on here because I believe this is a very interesting and important subject.
1) Scott Ross wrote:
In regards to your post friend1:
Who do I think the workers are? Messengers sent from God. That is the definition of apostle. So I consider them as apostles.
Where did you get your definition of apostle?
Here are a few: From the curch of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints website:
Apostle One sent forth to serve as a special witness of Jesus Christ. There are 15 Apostles living on the earth today. They make up the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the Church.
Merriam-Webster dictionary: apostle. One entry found.
apostle
Main Entry: apos·tle Pronunciation: \ə-ˈpä-səl\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Old English; Anglo-French apostle & Old English apostol, both from Late Latin apostolus, from Greek apostolos, from apostellein to send away, from apo- + stellein to send Date: before 12th century 1: one sent on a mission: as a: one of an authoritative New Testament group sent out to preach the gospel and made up especially of Christ's 12 original disciples and Paul b: the first prominent Christian missionary to a region or group 2 a: a person who initiates a great moral reform or who first advocates an important belief or system b: an ardent supporter : adherent 3: the highest ecclesiastical official in some church organizations 4: one of a Mormon administrative council of 12 men
Free on line dictionary:
a·pos·tle (-psl) n. a. Apostle One of a group made up especially of the 12 disciples chosen by Jesus to preach the gospel. b. A missionary of the early Christian Church. c. A leader of the first Christian mission to a country or region. 2. One of the 12 members of the administrative council in the Mormon Church. 3. a. One who pioneers an important reform movement, cause, or belief: an apostle of conservation. b. A passionate adherent; a strong supporter.
Just curious as to your definition, since you state that they are sent by God, and the definitions I find don't seem to support that. I see where they were chosen by Jesus, so maybe you feel Jesus is God?
Also, do you feel that ALL pastors, priests and other clergy are also apostles?
If the workers are apostles and sent by God, can they lose that standing in your church?
If so, how?
Do you consider Nathan B. to be an apostle? Do you consider Brad L. to be an apostle? Do you consider Barry B. to be an apostle? Do you consider Lyle S. to be an apostle?
Do you consider Ira H. to be an apostle? Do you consider William Irvine to be an apostle? Do you consider Tim S. to be an apostle?
Do you consider Betty D. to be an apostle? Do you consider Barbara H. to be an apostle? Do you consider Gene N. to be an apostle?
All the above are or have been workers. Just curious is all. I find it fascinating when people refer to 'the workers' as being apostles, and I wonder if you feel one can lose their apostleship.
Judas was and is considered an apostle of Jesus, so that would make William Irvine an apostle by your way of thinking, and any and every worker since then, whether or not they were in the work 6 months or 60 years.
Thanks for the thought provoking idea, and I look forward to your answer!
Scott
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Post by nathanb on May 26, 2008 10:18:34 GMT -5
Shushy wrote:
Ive commented on this before. If someone presented me with a person and told me this person is an Apostle. I would immediately be on alert.
First they would have to prove a number of things.
They would be a Church planter and Id want to visit that Church and assess whether it was planted on the correct foundation. Id want to see the gifts of administration, a humble spirit, a meek spirit, a loving man/woman and someone who has the gifts of revelation. Id also want to see the Body of Christ funtioning in the way the Holy Spirit desires. All with gifts not being threatened by insecure leadership. Id witness healings and miracles and deliverance. Most of all I think I would be looking for all of the extension gifts operating within that local church and being sent out to other churches to help them grow as well and above all the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ and the Father being honoured and gloryfied. The foundation of the local church would be Christ Jesus and all his teachings. I would expect the Apostle to travel and plant and return to the first church he planted. I would also see the abundant love extended through the leaders giving back to the people where there is lack. Also there would be many new converts. A flourishing active "mess in the stall" situation. Where God is in control, NOT man!
In my experience and I do not mean to be cruel, I didnt see this scene with the workers growing up.
Scott said: the scipture used to make it a requirement for one to have seen the resurrected Christ in order to be considered an apostle is when Paul defended his apostleship by saying "have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?" (I. Cor. 9:1). i suppose if this is actually a requirement then nobody today could be considered an "apostle." however to my logic whether someone is "sent" or not does not depend on whether or not you've actually seen the one who sent you but that you were in fact sent. of course the question of whether or not someone was in fact "sent by God" is a question each person must discern for him or herself.
Scott how many people today do you know who are seeing Christ appear to them? Angels appearing to them.
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Post by nathanb on May 26, 2008 10:21:16 GMT -5
GloryinChrist wrote: Re: Are Workers apostles? « Reply #18 Today at 4:43 »
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judas was and is considered an apostle of Jesus, so that would make William Irvine an apostle by your way of thinking, and any and every worker since then, whether or not they were in the work 6 months or 60 years.
This is really a very clever sleight of hand, because Jesus prophecised that Judas - Iscariot, the Betrayer - had to be chosen in order to fulfil scripture. "Have I not chosen you, and one of you is a devil?"
An apostle, from the Greek apostolos, means messenger or sent one. In scripture it refers to those with a divine commission to proclaim the message of Jesus Christ, Son of God and Saviour. But, when one who is sent ceases to fulfil the commands of him who sends; when a messanger ceases to declare the message entrusted to him, then he (or she) ceases to be an apostle.
There is, of course, a difference between the Twelve Apostles, and general apostles.
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Post by nathanb on May 26, 2008 10:26:43 GMT -5
Re: Are Workers apostles? « Reply #16 Today at 1:00 »
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Yesterday at 23:26, rick wrote: So if we still have Apostles (capital A) to day how could you explain the foundation of the temple being built on only 12 Apostles ?. this puzzles me ; any one has the answer?
Dietcoke wrote: Our religion had to change when things didn't work out as expected. Now that the world HAS lasted this long, we have learned to speak of later apostles, while somehow still revering "the" twelve because of their close relationship with Jesus.
So to answer Scott's original question...yes, the workers consider themselves "sent ones," so they may legitimately refer to themselves as apostles. Just not at the same level as the twelve. Others may argue about who it is that "sends" them, but that sort of argument is merely silly religious posturing. We should respect them and their dedication enough to call them apostles, even if we disagree with what they represent.
~~~ N9: DC... Very good post. Your understanding is astounding!
Yesterday at 16:02, Nathan9 wrote:
Did God forget Paul, Matthias, and Barnabas apostles and Apollo, Timothy, Silas, etc... I don't think so! ... theirs names and many other apostles through the ages have been added and build on the same 12 New Testament foundations.
1) CUL reply: Matthias was one of the twelve...
~~~ N9: Matthias was chosen to replace Judas... so he was # 83 apostle.
Remember Jesus first send out the first group of 12 apostles in Luke 9:1-10 The 12 returned. Then in Luke 10 Jesus sent out the Second group of 70 in Luke 10:1-17....
Matthias was number 83 apostle. (Acts 1:23)
Paul the apostle was # 84 in Acts 14:14 and Timothy was number 85 (Acts 16:1)... the list goes on... Apollos in (Acts 19).
Matthias was chosen to be numbered among the 11 apostles after Judas had killed himself.
~~~ Apostle= Sent one by God. Very simple. Don't try to make a mountain out of a molehill on the word Apostle or you might make a doctrine out of it.
The list of condition to be apostles on thread thread is false... here is why... Timothy, Silas, Apollos did not fullfill any of the condition as Scott's posted and they were called apostles like Paul himself.
The preachers who are not called or believe in apostles for today! gathered 2 0r 3 verses to base their doctrine on there were only 12 apostles Period! A bible student knows this a false teaching.
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Post by nathanb on May 26, 2008 10:31:07 GMT -5
Re: Are Workers apostles? « Reply #19 Today at 9:34 »
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Today at 4:43, GloryinChrist wrote:
Judas was and is considered an apostle of Jesus, so that would make William Irvine an apostle by your way of thinking, and any and every worker since then, whether or not they were in the work 6 months or 60 years.
This is really a very clever sleight of hand, because Jesus prophecised that Judas - Iscariot, the Betrayer - had to be chosen in order to fulfil scripture. "Have I not chosen you, and one of you is a devil?"
An apostle, from the Greek apostolos, means messenger or sent one. In scripture it refers to those with a divine commission to proclaim the message of Jesus Christ, Son of God and Saviour. But, when one who is sent ceases to fulfil the commands of him who sends; when a messanger ceases to declare the message entrusted to him, then he (or she) ceases to be an apostle.
There is, of course, a difference between the Twelve Apostles, and general apostles.
That's correct. ~~ The 12 apostles were called, chosen and sent by Jesus to work/labor/preaching mostly among the LOST sheep House of Israel. (Matthew 10:5,6)
~~~ The second group of 70 apostles were sent to ALL Jews in every city and place, where Jesus himself would come. (Luke 10:1,2)
~~~ God knew the world wasn't going to END by the first century! so more apostles needed to reach to ALL NATIONS! for another 2000 plus years. So God has called and send forth more apostles=sent ones in the book of Acts to reach to many Gentitle nations throughout the world.
The third group of apostles main purpose to work/labor/preaching among the Gentitles such as Barnabas, Paul, Timothy, Silas, John Mark, Luke, Tychicus, Aristacus, Tychicus, Justus, Ephaphas , Archipus, Epharotus, Jason, Socipater, etc..
~~~ (Gal. 2:7-9) The gospel of the uncirumcision (Gentiles) was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision (Jews) was unto Peter.... And when James, Cephas, and John who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship; that we should go unto the Genitles! and they to the Circumcision (Jews).
Jesus foretold in Matthew 24:14 "And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be PREACHED! in all the world for a witness unto ALL NATIONS! and then shall the END COME."
Paul wrote in (I Cor. 15:23-29) At Christ's coming. Then come the end, when Jesus shall have delivered up the kingdom of God, even the Father; when he shall have put ALL rule, and all authority power. For He must REIGN (1000 yrs) till He put all enemies under His feet.... When all things shall subdued unto him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject! unto Him (the Father) who put all things under him, that God may be in all and all.
~~~ The world has come to end yet, and Christ has NOT come back to rapture/taken up His people to the marriage Supper in heaven! so God has been continue sending forth more workers/apostles unto His harvest field unto the end UNTIL God said the time of the harvest has come or Ripe! (Revelation 14:15-17) to gather the WHEAT into His Barn and burn up the TARES!
Jesus foretold His coming in (Matthew 24:29-31) where the angels gathered the Wheat! into His barn from four corners of the earth... so it seems there will be apostles and His people EXISTS from many nations when Jesus comes again. « Last Edit: Today at 9:56 by Nathan9 »
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Post by nathanb on May 26, 2008 10:41:00 GMT -5
Someone used the handle hmmmmm posted this article:
Are There Apostles Today?
By James M. Frye A Grace Bible Church Publication
COPYRIGHT ©1999 James M. Frye
PUBLISHER'S NOTE: All scripture quotations are taken from the Authorized King James Bible. Any deviations are not intentional. All underlines, bold and items within parentheses are the author's.
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Introduction
Are there apostles today? Many would answer that question with a resounding Yes. They would tell us that there are not only apostles today, but that we should expect that God will, in these last days, raise up super apostles.
We don't, however, want to base our beliefs on what someone may have told us, but on what scripture teaches. What does the Bible have to say on this subject? Are there apostles today? In this article we shall seek to answer this question.
The Apostles Foundational Role Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. Ephesians 2:19 22
Here we see the church compared to a building. Jesus himself is the chief cornerstone. The apostles and prophets make up the rest of the foundation. This analogy helps us to see the foundational role of the apostles.
When building a building, the first thing that is laid is the foundation. Everything else is then built upon that one foundation. Do we then go back after building a couple of stories and lay the foundation again? No. It is only done once. The foundation is laid one time in the beginning and then never again.
The same is true of the apostles. They served as a foundation for the emerging church. We should not expect to see another group of apostles later on any more than we would expect someone building a building to lay another foundation on the fourth floor. After all, Jesus Christ, being the chief cornerstone, is a part of this foundation as well. We certainly do not expect there to be another Jesus Christ, do we?
The Witness of An Apostle Apostles were to bear witness to the fact that Jesus had risen from the dead. In order to do this, they had to have seen him after he was resurrected.
And [Jesus] said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day&hellip And ye are witnesses of these things. Luke 24:46 48
When looking for someone to replace Judas, the one chosen had to be a witness unto the resurrection.
Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection. Acts 1:22
Jesus told the apostles: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:8
And that is exactly what they did.
And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Acts 4:33
Paul the apostle, in defending his apostleship, appealed to the fact that he had seen Jesus after he had risen from the dead.
Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? 1 Corinthians 9:1
After that, he [JESUS] was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me [PAUL] also, as of one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 1 Corinthians 15:7 9
This LAST passage is devastating for those who believe that there are apostles today. In order to be an apostle one has to have seen Jesus after he rose from the dead. Paul says that Jesus was seen last of all by him. He is the last one to see Jesus after his resurrection. Since no one since Paul has seen Jesus, no one since Paul can be an apostle. Therefore, there can be no apostles today.
The Choosing of An ApostleThe apostles were hand picked by Jesus himself.
And when it was day, he [JESUS] called unto him his disciples: and of them he chose twelve, whom also he named apostles; Luke 6:13
Not only were the original twelve apostles hand picked by Jesus, Paul was as well.
And as he [Paul] journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. Acts 9:3 6
After Jesus appeared to him, he said of Paul:
...for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: Acts 9:13 15
Paul refers to himself as: Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ... Galatians 1:1
Paul was an apostle because he had been hand picked by Jesus Christ. Since Jesus isn't appearing to anyone today (see our last point), no one is being hand picked, either.
The Signs of An Apostle Jesus gave the apostles the ability to perform miraculous signs..
And when he [JESUS] had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these... Matthew 10:1 2
...for in nothing am I [PAUL] behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. 2 Corinthians 12:11 12
Paul refers to his ability to perform miracles as "the signs of an apostle".
And they [The Apostles] went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. Mark 16:20
This miracle working power was given to the apostles to bear witness that they were God's messengers and that they were speaking the very words of God.
Many people operate under the false assumption that all Christians in the early church were working miracles. This is simply not true.
And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles. Acts 2:43
And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people... Acts 5:12
If every believer had this power, why did Jesus need to give it to the apostles? They would have had it already. There is not one healing performed in the new testament by anyone other than Jesus, the apostles, or those who were directly chosen by Jesus or the apostles.
Those who claim to be apostles today may claim to have this kind of miracle working power but there is little (no) evidence of it.
Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour. And a certain man lame from his mothers womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple; Acts 3:1 2
Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God. And all the people saw him walking and praising God: Acts 3:6 9
Compare this to the so called miracles that we see today. Our would be apostles supposedly heal people of things like: earaches, back pain, high blood pressure, and other such things that cannot be seen or verified.
This man was lame from his birth. He had never walked. Not only did he have bone problems, he would have had muscle problems as well. Have you ever seen the legs of a person who has been in a wheel chair for a long time? They have no muscles in them. The muscles in their legs would have to be regenerated before they could walk.
In the Bible days, when people wore robes, the change in this man's calves would have been seen immediately. Jesus healed a man with a withered hand. His hand would have been recreated. Again, this would have been obvious to all who were watching. Jesus and the apostles raised the dead. Jesus raised Lazarus after he had been dead for days. His body was severely decomposed and even stank. These kinds of miracles could not be questioned.
Why don't we see people performing these types of miracles today? Because those who claim to have miracle working power don't actually have it.
The Bible says this concerning the high priest and other religious leaders of the Jews:
And beholding the man which was healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it. But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves, Saying, What shall we do to these men? for that indeed a notable miracle hath been done by them is manifest to all them that dwell in Jerusalem; and we cannot deny it. Acts 4:14 16
It is easy to deny the works of the so called apostles today. They are often heard about second hand, and the tale seems to grow with the telling. There are researchers, many of them medical doctors, who have tried to verify these so called miracles. What they find without exception is exaggerations, deception and even outright fraud. They find absolutely no evidence that any true miracle has actually taken place.
Compare that with miracles of the true apostles. Their miracles were performed out in the open for all to see. No one could deny them or speak a word against them.
Don't get me wrong. I believe that God still heals and performs miracles today in answer to our prayers. What I'm saying, however, is that there are no "Apostles" today. There is "healing" but there are no longer any "healers".
False Apostles The Bible tells us that there were not only "true" apostles but that there were also "false" apostles. The following passage sends a stern warning of the dire consequences that await those who claim to be apostles but aren't.
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. 2 Corinthians 11:13 15
Jesus commends the Ephesians for being able to spot these false apostles.
I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: Revelation 2:2
It's easy to spot false apostles today. Since there are no true apostles today, anyone who claims to be an apostle is a false apostle.
Conclusion So are there apostles today? In this article I have given a number of reasons why there are not. Let's just review them briefly.
1) There are no apostles today because the apostles served as a foundation for the early church only. We should not expect to see apostles today any more than we should expect to see someone laying a building's foundation on the fourth floor.
2) There are no apostles today because they had to have seen Jesus after he rose from the dead. The apostles were to bear witness to the resurrection of Christ. To do this they had to have seen him after he rose from the dead. Paul says that he was the last person to see Jesus. Since no one since Paul has seen Jesus, no one since Paul can be an apostle.
3) There are no apostles today because apostles had to be hand picked by Jesus. Since Jesus isn't appearing to anyone today, he isn't hand picking anyone, either.
4) There are no apostles today because no one today has the miracle working power of an apostle. Apostles were able to heal any physical condition. No case was to difficult. These healings often involved the miraculous recreation of body parts, and even the resurrection of the dead. No one is manifesting this type of miracle working power today.
The Bible warns us not to be deceived by false apostles. Since there are no true apostles today, anyone who claims to be an apostle is a false apostle.
Our Vision
There are many false doctrines being taught today, both inside and outside of the Christian Church. We at Grace Bible Church have a great desire to see that these false teachings are exposed and refuted by the Word of God. It is our desire to produce articles that may be placed (free of charge) in the hands of God's people to enable them to share the truth with those who have been misled by false doctrine.
Would you like to have a part in this ministry and help us get this message out to others? If so, you may make as many copies of this article as you need to give to those who have been misled by the false teaching exposed here. To place this article on your webpage in its entirety, write to Grace Bible Church. Permission is usually granted.
May God bless you as you do His work.
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Post by nathanb on May 26, 2008 10:49:08 GMT -5
I will let the readers study and search it out then they can draw their own between my post and Mr James F.'s article.
I have heard Mr. James's explanation from my Ex-Pentecostal preacher in 1979 when I told him I have met the apostles like Paul and Timothy today! at the University on campus lawn where they are having Bible Studies for the college students.... so my ex-preacher told me those same lines, and scriptures as Mr. James F. had written.
After a lot of praying, studying, searching for truth I disagree with my ex-preacher's of explanation that there were ONLY 12 apostles and there are no apostles today!
After 30 yrs in the 2x2s fellowship and a few years in the ministry mysef laboring with the 2x2 workers I must disagree with mr. James's F. understanding and teachings.
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Post by nathanb on May 26, 2008 18:16:30 GMT -5
Re: Are Workers apostles? « Reply #35 Today at 12:22 »
Today at 12:12, Nathan9 wrote:
What do you think of Paul's writing in I Cor. 1:1 where he wrote Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ, through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother.
Paul was NOT one of the 12 but he called himself an apostle would you discredits all of his writings as a servants of God?
I believe some people have taken this word apostle=sent one out of context and made into something so wacky doctrine.
1) Sheeesh wrote: I thought Jesus called him? I thought Jesus appeared to him on the trail? ~~ N9: Did Jesus call, appear to Timothy, Silas and Titus, John Mark and Luke in person before they became preachers of the Gospel?
I don't believe these men were around to witness His resurrection but Paul wrote in (II Cor. 1:19-21) For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timothy... now He who established us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, is God.
II Cor. 3:6 Who has made us able ministers of the New Testament; not of the letter, but of the Spirit: for the letter killeth, but the Spirit gives life.
II Cor. 3:4 Giving in all things in any thing that the ministry be not blamed. But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God in much patience, in afflictions, in distresses.
Timothy, Silas, Titus, Luke and John Mark were preachers just like Paul was... Does that make them false apostles/teachers/preachers because they didn't see Jesus or called by Him in person?
Were Timothy and Silas, and Titus were false apostles?
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Post by nathanb on May 27, 2008 18:07:47 GMT -5
Re: Are Workers apostles? « Reply #33 Yesterday at 12:12 »
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Yesterday at 12:05, Brick wrote:
To me, it seems a bit pretentious for anyone to exalt themselves by calling themselves by a title. I mean, if the twelve were called of Jesus apostles, well and fine. But to make a claim that I am an apostle pretty much discredits them in my view.
~~~ N9: What do you think of Paul's writing in I Cor. 1:1 where he wrote Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ, through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother.
Paul was NOT one of the 12 apostle but he called himself an apostle would you discredits all of his writings as a servants of God?
I believe some people have taken this word apostle=sent one out of context by placing conditions with the word apostle.
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Post by nathanb on May 27, 2008 18:12:56 GMT -5
Yesterday at 12:51, Brick wrote: Why do workers call themselves apostles? What is the point? ~~~ N9: The workers who are called and sent by God don't NEED to call themselves apostles because they KNOW they're. The workers don't need or want the Title as apostles but among the friends and fellow-workers they know who they are! they're servants of God and that's good enough.
It doesn't matter if you don't want to call them apostles because they are what they are. So, if others want to consider or call the workers as apostles that is OK too... that's the point... the workers are apostles, workers, preachers, ministers, pastors.
If you don't want to call them apostles but workers only that is fine.
But when the workers and others addressed them as apostles that is scripturally correct and there's nothing wrong for saying they're apostles. So, I backed up with scriptures, my testimony and testimonies of workers functions as apostles, teachers, pastors, evangelists, workers in the New Testament church you get all upset by saying why don't they satisfy with the word workers!
A truck driver knows he is a truck driver it doesn't matter if you call him a truck driver or not... if others call him a truck driver that's fine also because he/she is one.
The same with the carpenters or the workers.
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Post by nathanb on May 27, 2008 18:22:06 GMT -5
Re: Are Workers apostles? « Reply #50 Today at 9:12 »
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Today at 7:16, shushy unlogged wrote:
Brick, Its not so much to discredit workers or servants of God who ever they are. I think its more to understand scripture and know what is going on within the Kingdom of God. What is the plan. Why are they needed.
People choose to argue for their own edification or self pride or exalting another to protect the position. We should be more concerned about how God thinks and what his plan is for His purposes which is the reason these ministries exist it isnt for mans edification. If someone is called by God to be an Apostle his works and fruit in his life would be evidence of who he is.
Personally I do not know any Worker who called themself an Apostle. They only ever refered to one another as Workers or preachers.
There is more to the Calling of an Apostle than any of the other ministries. An Apostle would have at some time operated/funtioned as a Pastor/Evangelist/Teacher/Prophet. If a person was calling themself an Apostle and not displaying the giftings they would be false.
~~~ N9: Hi Shushy! Thanks, for your post. Your good understanding of an apostle operated/function as a Preacher, as an Evangelist/Teacher/Pastor/Prophet. You're correct.
About 6 months ago Brad Lewis, an ex-2x2 worker posted an email on here when he wrote to Jay Wicks, who was one of my 2x2 co-worker in the work this question, "Are you an apostle?" his answer to Brad L. was a "Yes, I am an apostle."
Anyone of the 2x2 worker who has heard the called from God to go forth in the Lord's harvest field is an apostle= sent one. I posted the below scriptures the last 10 yrs.
(I Cor. 12:28) God has set first some in the church, FIRST! apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers....
1) The New Testament Church of God is founded by the apostles' Itinerant ministry.
(Ephesians 2:19,20) The household of God are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone...
2) The Itinerant apostles were to use to gifts as Teachers, Pastors, Evangelists, Shepherds which they have been given by God to strengthen those in the church to grow and mature in Christ.
(Ephesians 4:1-14) When Jesus ascended up on high, he gave gifts unto men... and he gave some apostles and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some pastors, and teachers for the Perfecting of the saints for the work of service/ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.
Till we all come in the UNITY of the faith, and of the knowlege of the Son of God, unto a perfect, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.
~~~ Paul the apostle has many of these gifts in his life and ministry:
a) First Paul called to be an apostle. Romans 1:1,7 b) He was a prophet. Acts 13:1,2 c) He was an ambassador of the kingdom of God. II Cor. 5:20 d) He was a shepherd, a pastor. II Cor. 11:28 e) He was a Minister. Eph. 3:5-7 f) He was a Teacher, Preacher I Timothy 2:7 g) an Evangelist. I Timothy 4:5
~~~ When a person has been called, chosen by God to be one of His apostles=sent ones will have many of these gifts like Paul has in his/her own ministry. Some of the apostles/workers will have more, or stronger gifts in some area than others.
So, let me say this for the record the 2x2 workers have these gifts such as Evangelists, Teachers, Pastors, Shepherds, workers, Minister, prophets, ambassadors among them.
I have witnessed these wonderful gifts manifested in the lives of many workers who were my mentors co-workers in the 2x2s ministry and myself.
~~~ Shushy... You're correct about the apostle's function operated as an Evangelist, a Teacher, a Pastor, etc..
In the past some people on here have said the workers do not have evangelists, or pastors within the 2x2s church. So, this is what I have been trying to tell the last 10 yrs them that the 2x2s worker/apostle's functions as Evangelists, Pastors, Teachers, Preachers, Shepherds, etc.
Looking back from my years in the work. I will share with you how I rate myself as a worker the scale from 1-10 my gifts as a worker.
All true servants of God are apostles=sent ones by Him.
As a preacher.... I rated myself as a 6. As a pastor... I rated myself as a 7. As a teacher .... I rated myself a 7. As an Evangelist .... I rate myself a 7.
As a missionary.... I don't know.... didn't stay in the work long enough to find out.
~~~ I know quite a few of my older companions (Howard Mooney, John Sterling, Harold B. Jay Wicks, Lowell Stildolph, Craig J. and others) had scored all these gifts high as 9 or 10. Some are higher than others in some areas.
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Post by nathanb on May 27, 2008 18:48:15 GMT -5
Re: Are Workers apostles? « Reply #61 Today at 12:08 »
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Today at 11:53, Sylvestra wrote:Interesting discussion here!
Isn't there a place in the Bible that says the 12 Apostles would be the "judges of the people" in the Kingdom to Come? I understood that was why Mathias was chosen "to take the place" of Judas....because Judas could not longer be a judge at that time, so someone had to take his place.
It would seem to me that would make these particular 12 Apostles somewhat more special than any other group of apostles (small s) (such as the 70 sent later).
I think one of the keys to Apostles (large s) being "sent ones", is who sent them and when.
Best regards, Edy ~~ N9: Thanks, Edy.. for what you wrote. Right on about Matthias! Jesus foretold about the 12 apostles shall sit on the 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel when the Son of man (Jesus) sits on the throne of His glory. (Matthew 19:27-29)
I believe Jesus has special places, work and responsibilities for the 70 apostles... and the apostles throughout the ages... to be as judges for the billion Gentiles lives and souls. There's a lot of work need to be accomplished yet to come.
Christ's and his chosen ones will reign the 1000 yrs on the earth. (I Cor. 15:24-28; Revelation 20:1-7)
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Post by nathanb on May 28, 2008 9:30:36 GMT -5
Re: Are Workers apostles? « Reply #71 Yesterday at 19:20 »
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Yesterday at 19:10, shushy wrote:Just would like to throw this in. If the Early Church had remained functioning/operating as it did then and was supposed to now, most Christians would not be arguing or debating this topic. Simply because Apostles would be the norm. All they accompished for God and His kingdom would be normal everyday happenings and probably we would not be here. Christ might have returned by now.
IMO it is safer to call Workers/Preachers/servants of God.
Personally I could not jest about any ministry that falls. Particularly one that is a high calling like an Apostle.
~~~ N9: Hi Shushy... According to church history of the Vaudois apostles and many of their fellow brethren throughout Europe, France, Russia, England, Italy, Switzeland, Ireland, Scotland, etc.. have kept the apostles functions/operating or tradition for 1800 s yrs.. since the time of the 12,70, Paul, Barnabas, etc...
Jesus own words, "Upon this Rock I will build MY church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18) And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be PREACHED in all the world for a Witness unto ALL nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14).
~~~ Shushy... If you were to read my 2x2 website on the Vaudois apostles history then you will see they have kept the functioning and operating of the apostles' tradition and teachings for 1800 yrs prior to the time of John Govan, William Irivne and John Long in 1886.
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Post by Joe on Jun 10, 2008 10:11:07 GMT -5
My thought on this subject is somewhat like the trinity discussion.
To prove biblically whether the workers of today could be correctly called apostles or not.... I don't think it really is important.
Are they preaching God? YES! Are they preaching the gospel of Jesus? YES Are they doing it in the manner instituted by Jesus? YES! Are they sent by God, called by God? YES!
Does this require that they be labeled as Apostles? NO! Does it change the church in any way one way or another? NO! Does it change their place in the church? NO! Does it change how we esteem them? NO! Does it change how we esteem one another? NO!
We don't call them our Apostles, we call them our workers, doing the work of the Lord. There may be a reason for that.
Just some of my thoughts on this conversation.
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Post by ariandgabe on Jul 3, 2008 22:52:43 GMT -5
Dear brothers in Christ, the first instruction that is given to those that study the Scriptures is to examine what is written by some basic rules, like; when it was written (like for instance, before the ascension or after), and to whom it is written, and ‘by whom’ it is said, or who is saying this.
First of all read Acts 1:21-26; “And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples” to talk. With Jesus ascension, he was the rock that held them together until the coming of the Holy Spirit. They were just talking about closing the door (or book) on Judas and prayed to the Lord as to who should it be to take his place; Acts 1:25 “to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." But there was no answer.
Second, It was ‘not’ the Holy Spirit that called them together to do this, it was the Apostles idea. As you read on, you will see that as they prayed; “24 and said, "You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen.” The Apostles did not hear Jesus answer, or a voice by the Holy Spirit, or an angel. God had other plans that were already in the making. Because of their impatience, they tried to do a very important thing without the Holy Spirits guidance. And without that, they had to resort to their old ways and customs of casting lots; “26 and they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.”
So here they thought that they did something wise by rushing to replace Judas so their number would remain 12, but as we read later on, Jesus had someone else in mind. As He personally picked the original 12 Apostles, it was Jesus that would later pick the replacement and NOT men. Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead).
Grace Bible Church: This LAST passage is devastating for those who believe that there are apostles today. In order to be an apostle one has to have seen Jesus after he rose from the dead. Paul says that Jesus was seen last of all by him. He is the last one to see Jesus after his resurrection. Since no one since Paul has seen Jesus, no one since Paul can be an apostle. Therefore, there can be no apostles today.
Wow, who says there cannot be Apostles today? Who says what God can or cannot do? As I showed you from scripture that it was the Apostles idea to pick a replacement for Judas. It was also they who try to come up with some kind of standard as to what this person should be like. This is NOT how God operates in the New Kingdom. He doesn’t go by; who saw what, how long was he with Christ, how many wonders did he see Jesus do, this is mans ideas. And then, since many fit those categories, they resorted to casting lots.
When Jesus chooses an Apostle, He will do it with power and might. It is between Him and the man He choose and NOT depending on the roll of a dice. This is why all the confusion, people think that since it is written in the Bible, it is Gods Words talking. Whoa there, Satan and the Pharisees say a lot of things in the Bible, are we to build a church on that too? Oh yes.. that’s exactly what’s happening.
The good people of Grace Bible Church has set a standard for God in picking Apostles; “Since no one since Paul has seen Jesus, no one since Paul can be an apostle.” Sorry God, Peter and the rest of those 120 gathered together has made the rules.
Not likely my dear friend that is NOT what the Bible teaches. But neither are the ‘Workers’ or ‘Elders’ of the 2X2 church, Apostles. No Apostle of our day could possibly ‘hide’ when someone challenges the very foundation of their church. And what Apostle would say: “Sorry, we ran out of power to do miracles. Come back later.
I pray Lord: Acts 26:17-18 “… gentiles, to whom I now send you, 18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'” NKJV Odon
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