How can they hear... ?

[geoff]

In another thread, RAM said...

My understanding of Romans 10:15 and accompanying passages is a contextual one. Paul was writing about people who had not heard the "good news" being preached to them.

At that time transportation was by mule or on foot. The former was quite expensive.

Now looking at matters "contextually," how could the people at that time learn about Jesus ? No books, no radio or TV, mobile phones etc. They were very much dependent upon their equivelent of the Town Cryer. The only way they could learn of the good news was through having it preached to them. There were no preachers in their midst at that time, so preachers would have to be sent. Most travelling was done on foot.

Therefore, "how shall they preach, except they be sent and how beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things " makes absolute common sense when seen in this context.

There was no other way at that time that the gospel could be delivered or pioneered.

This caused me to wonder if anyone can be saved unless someone (by one means or another) should preach the gospel.

Can any person with no contact from another human to tell them anything about Christ be saved? Can they come to know God and to invite His control?

I suspect not. That it REQUIRES a person to tell them (that might be by telephone, radio book or whatever..), but that they would not spontaneously understand Jesus message.

[ram]

I believe that a person can come under the control of God via the message that the natural world gives out. I am not suggesting they would be saved or otherwise, but since there have been many who have fallen into that bracket down through the ages and have not had opportunity to hear the good news about Jesus Christ, I leave that judgement to God. He will judge them according to what they have known and understood.

However, Jesus provided that the gospel of salvation would be delivered by human agency when he commanded the church to go out into the world teaching and preaching and baptizing in his name etc. At that time learning about Jesus could only be done by hearing the word preached or being taught by neighbours etc, who had already heard the word. Few could read and the New Testament wasn't written for some time afterwards. Nowadays there are various ways to see and hear the gospel, but human agency forms part of all these ways at some point. The epistles of the NT is one example of preaching and hearing by the pen ! John, the author of Revelations was instructed by Jesus to write down the things that had been revealed to him and those who were to read his book were to be blessed indeed.

Jesus promised that he would be with his church until the end of the world, therefore human agency would always be present somewhere. Humans are really only the messengers with the good news or the invitation to the marriage feast. So, yes the messengers are very important. How would people hear about, or be invited to the marriage feast if there were no messengers ?

Although we know there will always be messengers, God does not need them. When Jesus descended from the mount of the olives, his disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works they had seen.

Some of the Pharisees were disturbed at this and asked Jesus to rebuke his disciples.

Jesus told them (Luke 19:40) " I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out."

With God, all things are possible. I don't think the stones will be required for there will always be human messengers willing to rejoice and cry out the message of good news until he returns again.

[A note]

Romans 10:15 is quoting vs 7 below:

Isaiah 52: 3 For this is what the LORD says:
"You were sold for nothing,
and without money you will be redeemed."

4 For this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
"At first my people went down to Egypt to live;
lately, Assyria has oppressed them.

5 "And now what do I have here?" declares the LORD.
"For my people have been taken away for nothing,
and those who rule them mock, "
declares the LORD.
"And all day long
my name is constantly blasphemed.

6 Therefore my people will know my name;
therefore in that day they will know
that it is I who foretold it.
Yes, it is I."

7 How beautiful on the mountains
are the feet of those who bring good news,
who proclaim peace,
who bring good tidings,
who proclaim salvation,
who say to Zion,
"Your God reigns!"

[delh]

A said:

Romans 10:15 is quoting vs 7 below:

Isaiah 52: 3 For this is what the LORD says:
"You were sold for nothing,
and without money you will be redeemed."

4 For this is what the Sovereign LORD says:
"At first my people went down to Egypt to live;
lately, Assyria has oppressed them.

5 "And now what do I have here?" declares the LORD.
"For my people have been taken away for nothing,
and those who rule them mock, "
declares the LORD.
"And all day long
my name is constantly blasphemed.

6 Therefore my people will know my name;
therefore in that day they will know
that it is I who foretold it.
Yes, it is I."

7 How beautiful on the mountains
are the feet of those who bring good news,
who proclaim peace,
who bring good tidings,
who proclaim salvation,
who say to Zion,
"Your God reigns!"

Guest,

This does put Romans 10:15 in to the proper context. Thanks for your post.

Del

[selah]

www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/o/u/ourgodrn.htm

A beautiful song we sing in church..

Blessings,
Linda

[BGM]

To believe that one can be saved only through the activities another man (ie the Living Witness Doctrine) is to have a rather minimalist view of God's power.

"Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:"

I suppose LWD enthusiasts would interpret this as God's listening to the needy prayers and then sending a preacher to preach leading to salvation. However, I doubt that the writer had this in mind as God's sole option.

Can God speak directly to people? Can God reveal one's sin? Can God guide people to repentence? Of course, it all comes from God. The involvement of man is only as a bit player in the big scheme of things.

[delh]

BGM said:

To believe that one can be saved only through the activities another man (ie the Living Witness Doctrine) is to have a rather minimalist view of God's power.

"Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:"

I suppose LWD enthusiasts would interpret this as God's listening to the needy prayers and then sending a preacher to preach leading to salvation. However, I doubt that the writer had this in mind as God's sole option.

Can God speak directly to people? Can God reveal one's sin? Can God guide people to repentence? Of course, it all comes from God. The involvement of man is only as a bit player in the big scheme of things.

Hi BGM,

I certainly agree with you that the LWD is a false doctrine. However I fail to see that God being able to use men in bringing the gospel to others is somehow a minimalistic view of God's power. To me that God is able by His Spirit to move men and women to carry forth the gospel message and to be moved like Peter was to go to Cornelius' home is nothing more than a show of AWESOME power.

Sure God is all powerful and He could do things anyway He wants to. But even Paul who first heard the Lord on the way to Damascus had a man sent to give him further instructions:
12And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,

13Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.

14And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Jesus said:
John 13:20
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Matthew 10:40
He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Now we wouldn't say that Jesus had a minimalist view of God because He said the above. Would we? I would even hesitate to say that man is a bit player. Not because man has any righteousness or power, but because God has planned to use men in the spreading of the gospel. Even so the glory all goes to God.

Del

[geoff]

"I certainly agree with you that the LWD is a false doctrine."

How do you know this?

How do you define a false doctrine? Is it just a matter of opinion?

[nathanb]

My understanding on: Living Witnesses Doctrine.... is NOT a false doctrine or teaching at all. LWD is scriptually correct and historical documents facts.

There has ALWAYS been Christ's Living Witnesses, apostles, and disciples in EVERY generation since the time of Jesus. Jesus said to Peter, "Upon this Rock, I will build MY CHURCH! and the gates of HELL shall NOT! prevail against it." (Matthew 16:18)

I did a study on Christ's Living Witnesses awhile back.

~~~ The Living Witnessess of Christ:

(Romans 10: 12-18) (NIV) For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile---the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blessed ALL who can call on him, for "Everyone who calls on the Lord will be SAVED".

How then can they Call on the ONE they have NOT Believed in? How can they Believe in the ONE of whom they have NOT heard?

How can they Hear without Someone to Preach to them? How can they Preach unless they are Sent?

As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring the good news!" But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has Believed our message?" Consequently, Faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. But I ask: "Did they not hear? Of course they (Israelites) did!" "Their voice has gone out into all the earth." (Romans 10: 9-10) That if you confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord", and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you are saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are Justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess, and are saved.

The word "Lord" (Greek Kyrios) is translated the name of Israel's God (Yahweh), Paul, when using this Word Jesus, is referring Deity to Him.

Salvation involves inward belief ("with your heart ") as well as outward confession ("with your mouth"). In the sense that both Jews and Gentiles are on the Same footing as far as Salvation is concerned. Peter cited this same passage (Joel 2:8-32) "and afterward," I will pour out my spirit on All people your sons and daughters will prophesy, and your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and Women I will pour out my Spirit in those days...And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be Saved. For on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be Deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the Remnants, (survivors) whom the Lord calls. These scriptures were Fulfilled in (Acts 2:17-21) on the day of Pentecost (A.D 33) in Jerusalem. Through the preaching of Peter/11Apostles/120 disciples 3000 souls were Saved in the name of Jesus Christ.

(Romans 10:14-15). Some might argue that Jews had never had a fair opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel, Paul by means of series of rhetorical questions, states (in reverse order) the conditions necessary to call on Christ and be saved. "1) A preacher Sent from God, 2) Proclamation of the message, 3) hearing the message, 4) believing in the message. "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news" The quotation is from (Isa. 52:7), which refers to those who bring the exiles the good news of their imminent from captivity in Babylon. Here it is applied to gospel preachers, who bring good news of release from captivity of sin. (verses 17-18) Faith comes from hearing the message; the message is heard through the word of Christ. But I (Paul) ask: Did they (Jews) not hear? Of course they Did. "Their voice has gone Out into all the earth, their words to the Ends".

Their voice. The quotation is from (Ps.19: 4), which refers to the testimony of the heavens to the glory of God. Here "Their voice" is applied to the gospel preachers and is used to show that Israel cannot offer excuse that she did NOT have opportunity to hear, since preachers (Apostles) went everywhere as Jesus had commanded them to be Witnesses in (Acts 1:7) "But you will receive Power when You will be my Witnesses in Jerusalem, and in All Judea, Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." These words (originally used to describe God's revelation in nature) appropriately describe the widespread preaching of the gospel, and Paul uses them to show that Jews had sufficient opportunity to hear the message of Redemption.

(Romans 10:19-21) Did Israel Not understand? The quotations that follows (from Deut. 32:21) answers this question by suggesting that the Gentiles, whom the Jews considered to be Spiritually unenlightened, Understood. Surely if they (Gentiles) understood the message, the Jews could have. The Gentiles, those who are not a nation of God are forming the sense that Israel was. The responsibility for Israel's rejection as a nation rested with Israel herself! She had failed to meet God's requirement, namely Faith.

(Romans 11: 1-36) There has always been a faithful remnant among the Jewish People. As it was in Elijah's day, so it was in Paul's day. Despite widespread of Apostasy (renegade), a faithful remnant of theJews remained. The grounds for the existence of the remnant were NOT their good works, but God's grace. The righteous standing before God, which eluded the greater part of Israel the elect because they refused the way of Faith God made them blind to spiritual truth in Jesus Christ. The spiritual dullness of the Jews had continued from Isaiah's day to Paul's day. The "Rich of Gentiles" references to the abundant benefits of Salvation already enjoyed by Believing Gentiles, which had come about because of the Rejection of the gospel by the Jews.

(V- 12) That rejection caused the Apostles to turn to the Gentiles (Acts 13:46-48, 18: 6). (Verse-26) Israel's hardening is Temporary, NOT Permanent until the total number of the Elect Gentiles comes in. The total number of the elect could be mostly Gentiles and some Jews of every generation. The Salvation of the JEWS will, of course, be on the same basis as anyones salvation: Personal Faith in Jesus Christ crucified and rose from the dead. The Deliver will come from Zion! The quotation is from (Isa. 59:20), where the deliver ("Redeemer") seems to refer to God. The Jews understood the text to be a reference to the Messiah.

(Revelation 11:1-19) I (John) was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measures the temple of God but Exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months, and I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth." These are Two Olive trees and the Two lamps stand that stand before the Lord of the whole earth.

Four events will happen at the Same period 1,260 days, 42 months, and 3 1/2 years.

1) (Rev. 11:1-5) Holy City trodden down by the Gentiles. (42 months). 2) (Rev. 11:3-9) Power given to Two Witnesses to Prophecy. (1,260 days)

3) (Rev. 12:1-17) The Woman (true Bride of Christ) protected by God by fleeing into the wilderness from Satan. (3 1/2 yrs)
4) (Rev. 13:1-19) The beast leopard/Lamb; devil, mother of Harlots (false bride of Christ) false prophets.. Were given Power to make War with the Saints, and to Overcome them who keep the commandments of God, and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ.

(Zech. 4:11-14) Then I asked the angel, "What do these Two Olive Trees on the right and the left of the lamp stand? He replied, "Do you not know what these are?" "No, my lord," I said. So, he said, "These are the Two who are anointed" to serve the Lord of all the earth.

Two Olive Trees stand for the priestly and royal office and symbolize a continuing supply of oil. Two branches stand for Joshua the Priest and Zerubbabel from the royal house of David. These two leaders were to do God's work (e.g. on the temple and in the lives of the people) in the power of his spirit. The combination of the priestly and royal lines and their functions points ultimately to the Messianic King-Priest and his office functions.

These two Witnesses in (Revelation 11) may symbolize testifying Apostles/prophets who will be Martyred for Proclamation of Truth in Jesus. (42 months X 30= 1,260 days). They were clothed in sackcloth, a coarse dark cloth woven from the hair of goats or camel. It was worn as a Sign of Mourning and Penitence (Joel 1:13; John 3:5-6; Matt. 11:21). The imagery emphasizes that the Spirit of God supplies the power for effectiveness testimony.

(Mark 6: 6-13) (NIV) Then Jesus went teaching from village to village, calling the 12 to him, and he sent them out two and two, and gave them authority over evil spirits...and if any place will NOT welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them. They went out and Preached that people should repent.

(Luke 10:1-23) After this the Lord appointed 70 others and sent them two and two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go...Jesus said, "He who listens to you Listens to me; he who Rejects you rejects Me; but he who rejects me rejects Him (the Father) who Sent Me".

Why did Jesus send the Apostles out in the missions two and two or sometimes three or four as a group? (John 8: 17-18) It is also written in your Law, that the testimony of two men is true (Deut. 17:6; 19:5). I am One that bears witness of myself, and the Father that sent me. And yet my judgment is true: For I am NOT alone, but I and the Father that Sent me.

Just as Salvation for Gentiles involves Forgiveness of Sins, so the Jews, when they are saved, are forgiven by the mercy of God---his forgiveness based ONLY on their Repentance and Faith. Paul's praise to God, whose wisdom and knowledge brought about his great plan for Salvation of both Jews and Gentiles. (Eph.1: 1-14) Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the Saints who are at Ephesus.

Praise be to God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ...In love God predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ...(Verses 13,14) In whom ye also trusted after ye heard the word of truth, the Gospel of Your Salvation: in whom also after that ye Believed, ye were Sealed with that Holy Sprit of promise. Which is the earnest of our inheritance, until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

The kingdom of God was to be taken from the Jews, and from the nation they represented, and given to another nation, which the Lord forecast here casting off the Jews. What was the other "nation" to which authority over God interests passed? Was it not the Church, which Peter describes as "a holy nation" (I Peter 2:9)? This "nation" consists of All regenerated persons and is constituted on a different principle and held together by different bonds. It is not after the flesh, but after the Spirit that citizenship is obtained in this Christian commonwealth, in which Saved Jews and Gentiles are One.

(John 10:14-18) Jesus said, "I have other Sheep which are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be One flock, and One shepherd..." (NIV) To the Christians Gentiles at Ephesus Paul wrote (Ephesians 2:1-22) For by grace ye are Saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. That at times ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the Covenant of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world; but now in Christ Jesus, ye who sometimes were far off are made night by the Blood of Christ.

For he is our Peace, who has made both us (Jews and Gentiles) One, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us. For through Christ we both have access by One Spirit unto the Father.

Now, therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, and built upon the Foundation of Apostles and Prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone, in whom the building fitly framed together growth unto a holy temple of the Lord.

(Matthew 16:13-20) Jesus said, "I say also unto thee, that thou art Peter (detached stone) and upon this rock (bedrock, Jesus) I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." (Matthew 24:14) Jesus said, "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a Witness unto All nations; and then shall the End come. (Matthew 28:16-20) after Jesus was raised from the dead He told his apostles/disciples "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father, Son and Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you. And Lo, I am with you always, even unto the End of the world."

(Acts 1:8) Jesus said, "but ye shall receive Power, after that the Holy Ghost has come upon you: ye shall be Witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, in Samaria, and unto the Uttermost part of the earth." (Gal.2: 7-9) On the contrary, they saw that I (Paul) had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter had been to the Jews. For God who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles.

(Revelation 14:6) written by John the apostle in (95 A.D.) I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, kindred, tongue and people. For the time has come for thee (Jesus) to reap for the harvest is ripe. He that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

(Matthew 24: 29-31) Immediately after the distress of those days "the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light: the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken." At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four wind, from one end of the heavens to the other."

The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Arlington National Cemetery in Washington, DC, has a guard 24 hours a day. Every hour on the hour, 365 days a year, a new soldier reports for duty. When the new guard arrives, he receives his orders from the one who is leaving. The words are always the same: "Orders Remain Unchanged." The same could be said of the orders that Jesus gave to His disciples and apostles. Just before Jesus ascended to heaven, He told His followers, "You shall be Witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." (Acts 1:8). He also said, "Go, therefore and make disciples of all nations" (Matt. 28:16-20).

(Romans 1:16-17) For I (Paul) am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the Power of God unto Salvation to every one that believeth, to the Jews first, and also to the Gentiles. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (I Cor. 1: 18-27) For the Preaching of the cross is to them that perish, foolishness; but unto us who are saved, it is the power of God...For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. (II Timothy 2: 1-2) Thou therefore my son (Timothy) be strong in grace that is in Christ Jesus. And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses the same commitment (entrust) thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach other also.

[delh]

geoff said:

"I certainly agree with you that the LWD is a false doctrine."

How do you know this?

How do you define a false doctrine? Is it just a matter of opinion?

Very good questions Geoff. I suppose in the truest sense there is nothing we know by our human intellect is there? We can call it a belief or an opinion. We can believe that it is based on faith or reasoning and logic.

I define a false doctrine as a teaching or practice that is contrary to the Truth that we see in Jesus. A practice that is contrary to what He did and taught while on this earth.

The living witness doctrine as I understand it is that in order to be saved, you must hear the gospel message through another person who has previously been saved, and that must all go back continuously to Jesus when he walked on the earth.

First of all I have a problem with that concept because of those who I believe the bible clearly shows will be in heaven from the Old Testament. They clearly to me saw the Christ who was coming, by revelation, not necessarily through another man.

My second concern is the many stories that I have heard of those even in our day who while reading the scriptures came to a clear revelation of the ministry that Jesus was sending forth in the world. Many of them told their family's just what to look for when the true ministers came to their homes and showed them in the scriptures what had been revealed to them. Some of these individuals never lived to see the day the ministry came to their family's homes. I believe that we will hear and rejoice in their testimonies in heaven. I also have heard of many who have obviously had a clear understanding of Christ and all that He did and taught through contact with the friends, but had never met a worker. They are enjoying sweet fellowship today with His people.

Del

[BGM]

Del wrote:

"I certainly agree with you that the LWD is a false doctrine. However I fail to see that God being able to use men in bringing the gospel to others is somehow a minimalistic view of God's power."
Del, I think you misread or misunderstood my post. We are actually on much the same page on this issue. My post said "To believe that one can be saved only through the activities another man (ie the Living Witness Doctrine) is to have a rather minimalist view of God's power." In other words, to suggest that man is the sole means by which God speaks to people is to minimalize God's power. God clearly uses people to help others find Him, and that in itself is further evidence of God's power.

Geoff: Why is the Living Witness Doctrine wrong? Well, witnesses in short. Paul for one. To Agrippa he tesified that Christ told him "But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;" So, it was God alone who spoke to Saul, it was God alone who converted him, and God alone who made him a minister.

[BGM]

Whoops, sorry about the marquee. Hope no one gets dizzy trying to read it!

[geoff]

Lets me avoid confusion by saying that I don't accept the LWD.
But I want to understand how people either follow it or reject it.

Is it on faith or by intellect?

[BGM]

Geoff, the way I see it most people accept or reject it based on scriptural evidence. Their view, one way or the other, is then reinforced by experience. Or perhaps the other way around with the experience first, then the scriptural reinforcement.

In addition in our church, the LWD has been common thinking for a century, so the idea gets group teaching/reinforcement as well. There is still a large segment of our church who would be horrified by the suggestion that someone could find God without the involvement of a worker except in some very rare cases. Many people are highly sensitive to and susceptible to what the group around them thinks.

geoff said:

Lets me avoid confusion by saying that I don't accept the LWD.
But I want to understand how people either follow it or reject it.

Is it on faith or by intellect?

[geoff]

I think that while the LWD is ONE way to receive the doctrine, the DWD also applies.