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Post by otto2 on Aug 26, 2008 14:45:44 GMT -5
I'm sorry delh, I'm afraid I just don't understand your last post, least of all the last three paragraphs.
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Post by otto2 on Aug 26, 2008 15:43:14 GMT -5
delh It cost me to write what I wrote. If you are comparing my knowledge of my parents belief's, my understanding of the teachings of my youth, when I lived under their roof for 23 years and for the 25 years since that time when I have seen them on a weekly and sometimes daily basis, if you are comparing that to the gossip of a woman in the market place or tavern, then your reply is crass in the extreme.
The description of the people to whom you refer would be an apt description of any God fearing man of the 19th century
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delh
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Post by delh on Aug 26, 2008 20:02:16 GMT -5
Otto, Sorry that you have taken this personally. All of that is a quote from what was written in 1250. I just found it interesting not that it applies to you. delh
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delh
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Post by delh on Aug 27, 2008 12:37:16 GMT -5
Otto, I very much appreciate the candor with which you have replied. I realize that it is not easy to open our selves up in the manner that you have. I am happy that you have found a peace with God. Regardless of what you say concerning your early years in your parents home, I feel that much good was imparted unto you. It is unfortunate that there are many like you who for what ever reason felt as you put it "unable to conform to the rules and regulations of the truth".
Since I did not grow up knowing the fellowship that you knew, I am curious as to what "rules and regulations" there were that you felt you were unable to do? When I finally heard the truth at about the age you decided to resign yourself to a lost eternity, all I could see was a place where two ways met: my way and God's way. It was as simple as that. No rules and regulations, but the need to simply take heed to the words of Jesus: come follow me. No one said to enter in to His kingdom you have to give up this or do that. All I heard was do you believe on Jesus, do you want to follow Him.
I don't for a minute doubt that you have found a truly sincere people who confess their love for the bible and all that you say in some outside this fellowship. However when you say they are non judgmental and then go on to explain the marks that they are looking for in the people that they will fellowship with, you tend to lose me. Perhaps you are saying that their judgments are not based on external markings like hair etc? Fair enough. But the point I made earlier is that we all judge those things that you are speaking of. It would truly be sad if anyone really just looked at outward markings only as the standard by which they felt a closeness with their brother. I doubt that anyone really does that even though you insinuate that your parents do such. We do look at peoples life styles, which are a manifestation of their beliefs. We look at their words and actions, because that is also a manifestation of their beliefs. We feel their spirits, their loves. In short we judge. We have to understand that Jesus encourages us to judge these things. How else will we know whom not to follow. We are not judging others to condemn them or to praise them, we are judging what is right for our own lives. As we fellowship with others, we realize that we will be influenced for good or for bad. We will be encouraged to give ourselves more fully to the Lord or we will be encouraged to live for ourselves. We will be encouraged to draw closer to Jesus footsteps or be encouraged to walk in our own ways.
Of course when it is all said and done, we realize that we are not up to the task in our own strength. We are so easily deceived in our own logic. We can only do it as the Lord gives us the vision and strength. Human reasoning will fail.
Otto wrote: I see people who, unlike myself are not judgemental when they meet others who confess a faith in the Lord. They do not look (as I did) at whether they have a certain hairstyle, or what music they like, or what they have in their houses. They look to see if they can see the fruits of the Spirit made manifest in their lives. Do these "other Christians" revel in the word of God and seek in all humility to apply it to themselves? Do they seek Gods face through prayer and study his word for it's treasures? and do they try to show love and compassion towards those people who are the least like themselves in terms of background and social/income/ethnic status, (as Jesus taught in the parable of the good Samaritan, when the message in effect was, your neighbour is the one who is the least like yourself) If they do, there will be sweet fellowship with those believers regardless of the name by which they identify themselves.
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Post by otto2 on Aug 28, 2008 9:54:51 GMT -5
Please bear with me delh, I will get back to you. I'm tied up a bit with work unfortunately. What you say is all true ...., it feels like I'm talking to my parents here!, we agree... and yet.., we disagree. I know what I want to say, I just need time to put it in a coherent manner.
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jacob
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Post by jacob on Sept 5, 2008 1:50:39 GMT -5
I'd like to ask a question. I work with a Jehovah's Witness. He tells me that most people are not going to go to heaven, and verifies this with the verse " ... very few who enter the kingdom of heaven ..." Next, he says most people will rise from the grave to live again, peacefully on this earth, and he quotes the verse " ... they will rise up from the memorial tomb and live again in harmony ..." Is this true?
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delh
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Post by delh on Sept 5, 2008 11:22:03 GMT -5
I'd like to ask a question. I work with a Jehovah's Witness. He tells me that most people are not going to go to heaven, and verifies this with the verse " ... very few who enter the kingdom of heaven ..." Next, he says most people will rise from the grave to live again, peacefully on this earth, and he quotes the verse " ... they will rise up from the memorial tomb and live again in harmony ..." Is this true?Greetings Jacob, As to your first question, there are plenty of words that Jesus himself spoke that would tend to support this thought that few will be saved. MT 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: MT 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. I am not familiar with your second quote from the Jehovah's Witness. It is certainly not a quote from the new testament, so I would assume it is from one of the prophets and is being taken out of context. The only ones who will rise from the dead and be with Christ are those who died in Christ (which are the few spoken of above) 1THESS 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1THESS 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1THESS 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. I suppose that is why Jesus spoke right after his words above in Mathew: MT 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. MT 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? MT 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. MT 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. MT 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. MT 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. MT 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. MT 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? MT 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. He defines here the work of iniquity as being serving God in our own way and in our own time. Delh
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Post by otto2 on Sept 5, 2008 11:48:05 GMT -5
Ok delh; here we go, thanks for being patient. Working in Land based industry is not the best when the "weather windows" and opportunities are short; and the workload great!
I would not disagree with you when you when you say my upbringing did me no harm. I did not necessarily think so at the time; but I would not change that now and I am grateful for it.
I did not question the rules so much when I was a child, I did not know anything else. They were just rules; and they had to be obeyed. We had no TV, radio, or any form of popular music. There was no playing with my friends on Sundays. We had to dress in Sunday best not only on Sunday but also Wednesday meeting and all gospel meetings (otherwise, what would the workers think!). Every meeting was to be attended, absolutely without exception. As a child of the seventies, all my friends looked like younger versions of Noddy Holder (lead singer, pop group, you get the idea. UK if you hadn't already guessed.) whereas I was to look like a young Bing Crosby. We were required to parade ourselves up and down the street in our finery as we walked to meetings in the same village. This was deemed to be our way of evangelising, people would see that we were different and wish to join us! Irrepairably scarred; I rebelled at sixteen and ceased going to meetings. (I continued to live under my parents roof until I was twenty three)
There then followed a period of absolutely no church whatsoever, not ever,... ever! which lasted for twenty nine years.
My account of how I came to my present position is for another time.
You are right about the judgement issue; but we should judge according to how the scripture tells us. We should judge according to evidence of the fruits of the spirit. We should judge according to whether there is evidence of loving the Lord and his word, or whether there is evidence of loving our neighbour as ourself. We should not judge according to how we dress, or how we wear our hair, or because of the music we listen to. (Mozart is OK in my parents house despite him living one of the most debauched and decadent lifestyles on record. As too latterly, is 30's and 40's music. No doubt in another 50 years or so, the music of today will be acceptable)
I went to my parents with great joy, to tell them what had happened to me, but they were dismayed. I had been deceived; and was now further in the grip of the devil than I was when I was a "worldly unbeliever"
And they make that judgement because I do not conform to their rules. These rules are not Gods rules, they are rules made up by men and they will perish over time.
Colossians 2:16-23 is highly relevant. I will quote 22-23: 'These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence'
Seventy of so years ago, the 2x2's had a rule that all women should wear black stockings. It was a rule made up by men and it perished over time.
Twenty or thirty years ago they had a rule that all women should wear hats in meeting. It was a rule made up by men and it perished over time.
Around that same period thay had a rule that men and women should sit separately in the convention meeting tent. It was a rule made up by men and it perished over time.
Today they have a rule that women should not wear trousers, it is a rule made up by men; and it will perish over time. (I am confident that in the not too distant future you will see sister workers on the platform wearing trousers)
They have a rule that their preachers should not marry; and it is a rule made up by men. We can see the shocking folly of that rule on many websites, and we see the truth of those words in Colossians when it says, mens rules, with their harsh treatment of the body, lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
delh, when I read what I have written it can seem bald and accusational, I do not intend it to be that way. I am not so accomplished with the written word so as to be able to convey spirit and feeling with every post, but I can assure you my mood is one of contrition and humility and no small amount of sadness.
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Post by otto2 on Sept 28, 2008 10:52:43 GMT -5
.... one shall be taken; and the other left.
Looks like I'm the one that was left!
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Post by Agreeing in One on Sept 28, 2008 19:44:33 GMT -5
I appreciated the thought that was expressed that when someone makes their choice to serve in the Lord's Way that they do not look at it as I have to give up this or that, but just thinking of being submissive to the Holy Spirit's leading into all righteousness. I know I've heard many of the older workers and friends in days gone by that we do not expect a "new babe in Christ" to just suddenly "know all the things" that marks a true child of God....that that is all just part of "growing in grace"! I look at it this way just as Abraham embraced "circumcision" as his covenant with God for obedience to God's Will, so in kind everything that we "cut away" from our lives as we "grow in grace" is just because of our love to do the Lord's Will! Jesus in us is the priority, if you will! Thanks for saying such that we don't look at "professing" as a "giving up" anything, but being submissive to the Lord' Way!
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delh
Junior Member
Posts: 56
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Post by delh on Sept 29, 2008 11:57:25 GMT -5
I appreciate what you wrote and agree in one.
1 John3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us
It appealed to me that we know that he abides in us by the Spirit which he has given us is directly connected with what he said before this -- He that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him and he in him. We don't keep his commandments so that we will have his Spirit, we are able to keep his commandments because we have his Spirit working in our lives. We don't do his will because we are good people, but because he has been kind enough to make us willing. We love one another not because we are all so loveable, but because the Spirit dwelling within us loves the Spirit dwelling in another.
None of this absolves us from obeying and keeping his commandments it just shifts the way in which we are able to do such. Not in our power but in his. King Saul received many commandments from God and Samuel, but was unable to keep them because the Spirit was not in him. He substituted obedience through the Spirit with doing it in his own strength and way. To those looking on he appeared righteous, but it was an abomination to God.
Delh
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Post by not unreasonable on Sept 30, 2008 4:00:06 GMT -5
The man who has found the treasure hidden in the field is clearly indicated by his willingness to sell all that he has, - and to do it with joy.
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Post by otto2 on Sept 30, 2008 16:05:01 GMT -5
Is it not a wonderful thing then; that the Amish people have been given such a fullness of grace to enable them to live the life they do. They do not pick and choose as to what they give up for the Lord, they give up everything, cars, telephones, computers, modern household appliances and all forms of social entertainment. They live in the world but are clearly not of it; and the Lord enables them to do this to a higher standard than anyone else. If this is the criteria by which we are to judge who has the spirit of the Lord within them, then surely the Amish are truly the "chosen few". Would you not agree?
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Post by not unreasonable on Oct 2, 2008 3:30:01 GMT -5
If this is the criteria by which we are to judge who has the Spirit of the Lord within them, then yes, the Amish would appear to come out tops, but I doubt if using this criteria is correct. It seems to me that it would be possible to totally opt out of the modern world yet still be a rogue at heart and lacking the Spirit of God, so other aspects of their life and doctrine would have to be considered. The same applies to the f&ws and anyone else. However, selling all in order to buy the field containing the treasure, were Jesus’ own words and I believe it is very necessary, at least in a spiritual sense (giving up ones pride, own thoughts and will), for anyone who wants to possess the kingdom of God, and Jesus implies that this is not a problem for those who have found the treasure. In most cases I believe this would also involve giving up some “worldly” things that would be a hindrance to their spiritual life.
It was Jesus’ desire that his disciples be “sanctified”, (John 17) “set aside, made holy”, - so there is virtue in a certain separation from the world. 1 Peter ch4 v1-4 would also indicate that there was a difference between the lifestyle of the Christians and the lifestyle of “the world”. And that separation was even more important for God’s people of the Old Testament. Likely the degree of this separation considered to be necessary today is the thorny question, and leads to much discussion and argument. Personally, I would prefer to leave that to the teaching of the Spirit and to a person’s conscience rather than make rules. It is remarkable to me that the vast majority of f&ws come to very similar conclusions without rules having to be made. What would we say about those who do not arrive at the same general conclusions? Love them just the same and have confidence that the Lord can continue His work in their lives. If a person’s behaviour were contrary to sound doctrine and serious enough to warrant discipline, then scriptures like Matt ch 18 v17 and 2Thess ch 3 v 6 may need to be applied, but that is another situation to the one in question.
Otto, I believe you when you write that you don’t wish to antagonise, or some similar expression, and I hope you’ll read my post in the same spirit. Just my thoughts for what they are worth.
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Post by Joe on Oct 3, 2008 18:02:57 GMT -5
Is it not a wonderful thing then; that the Amish people have been given such a fullness of grace to enable them to live the life they do. They do not pick and choose as to what they give up for the Lord, they give up everything, cars, telephones, computers, modern household appliances and all forms of social entertainment. They live in the world but are clearly not of it; and the Lord enables them to do this to a higher standard than anyone else. If this is the criteria by which we are to judge who has the spirit of the Lord within them, then surely the Amish are truly the "chosen few". Would you not agree? Thanks to otto2 and delh for a great dialog here on this subject. I would like to add a little observation about the Amish people and their communities as I have had very little interaction but have been into their communities often. Also the Mennonites. I have a friend who came from the Amish community and the story is very different than one would think from the inside. It mostly is a story of power struggles, rules and regulations that are so far from spiritual. Clothing is a big thing in these churches.... and you can tell from what community they come from by the differences of their clothing. This friend said they had moved from one community to another and they had to throw out all their other clothing and sew new or at least re-sew the old because they were not according to the regulations of the new community. he didn't give a lot of examples except to say it was about the stitching and the way they were put together. I have maintained for years that a lot of the rules and regulations we have put up with in the past have been brought out of the so called false churches into this fellowship when people left them to have fellowship with us instead. I am happy that some of these customs have been seen as unreasonable and not a help in increasing one's spirituality, but actually have been more a stumbling block some seeing the true love of God in our faith. With that said, I have also found that when I have encountered those who have become focused on things they deem wrong, and made it their mission to change things... I have sat in wonder at the way they go about exposing their thoughts. Now, going back to the beginning of my post, and the discussion of spirituality. Prayer and meditation are important for growth in spirituality. Humility and love are found in those who are spiritual. Fellowship with others who are spiritual will be sweet and natural and the connection of the spirit will be very special. I love it when I can go to a convention and spend 4 days removed from the world around me and find others who are more interested in the growth and strengthening of their spiritual life within. I do find way to much banter about things that are of no consequence to my spiritual growth, but I in no way judge others as less spiritual but find myself gravitating toward those who have in the past fed and strengthened my faith and love. May we all become more like Jesus in our natural life because our spiritual life is guiding us in our actions and interactions.
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