Invitation to the Workers and Elders

[Richard McFarland]

This thread is for input from the Workers and Elders in the Truth. The place that these men and women have attained in the Lord should be exemplary as written in the Epistles. General questions for the Workers and Elders may be left here and any Worker or Elder is welcome to answer any question. Or all questions!

As with all threads, I will delete any and all threads that push the limits of good taste, verge on libel, slander, blackmail or general smear tactics. We all have several other boards for this kind of stuff and I do frequent them, also.

Sometimes the juvenile vulgarities make me ashamed to be a human!

Peace in Christ,

Richard

[otto2]

Is it the responsibility of all Christians to engage in pro-active evangelism (sharing the gospel with outsiders) or should it be left to the workers?

What do you think?

[otto2]

Hmmm; I'll take that as a no then!
You see; the thing is, It's one of the differences between Christians and 2x2's that is not spoken about so much.
Christians believe that the great commission in Matthew 28:19 "therefore go and make disciples of all nations", applies to all believers not just certain appointed believers, hence;

Colossians 4:6, "let your conversations be always full of grace; seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone" and not hiding your light in a jar (NIV) or under a bushel (KJV); but to put it on a stand so that all can see.

If the 2x2's are the only true way, why has no one outside the group (apart from ex's and born & raiseds of course) ever heard of them. They will have heard of Pentecostals and Plymouth Bretheren and Quakers etc etc; but not 2x2's, and I was wondering how that squared with Acts 17:6 "these men who have caused trouble all over the world have now come here".

I'm not trying to be smart here; I just thought it was a reasonable question: Why do 2x2's leave the sharing of the gospel to the workers?

It does not necessarily mean you have to go out into the streets, it can be as simple as answering a question on this board.

[delh]

Otto2,
Sometimes a no response can come from many reasons. The fact that many or all did not choose to respond to your question doesn't necessarily prove that they are saying no to you. For myself, I do believe that the so called great commission in Math 28 was said to the eleven disciples and therefore does apply more to the sent ones today. HOWEVER, as you point out there are many other verses in the bible which do "commission" all of us to have a word in season, to not be ashamed of what we believe in and are living. I do believe that the two commissions work together, without getting into the semantics of "too whom does this apply".

Obviously workers can go forth into unchartered waters and spread the gospel and have a ready response from those whom God is drawing, but we all know of many who have first heard or seen the Christ in the lives of our dear friends, and have begun to walk with God. There is no magic bullet that says only the workers can spread the gospel. The good news goes forth from those living this way of Christ, whether they preach it from every corner or not. We all know that the impressions on our own lives are not so much what we have heard from others as it is what we have seen in others.

The pure in heart will see God. The wisdom from above is first pure, peaceable, easy to be entreated. Whatsoever things are pure---think on these things. Aren't we all glad that whatsoever pureness we have in our hearts comes directly form the God of heaven. Our job is to make sure that once He has put it there that we think on those things that are pure. The greatest privilege that we have is to SEE the work of God in another life, because that is when we really begin to SEE God from the vantage point of a pure heart. It is so easy to get distracted by what we don't like in others because of their human failings. Perhaps we see God and His workings a little clearer than our brother, but it is no advantage to us or our brother to dwell on what they do not yet SEE.

delh

[nathanb]

Aug 3, 2008 16:59:19 GMT -5 @otto2 said:

Is it the responsibility of all Christians to engage in pro-active evangelism (sharing the gospel with outsiders) or should it be left to the workers?

What do you think?

Yes, I agree the responsibility of the disciples and apostles to share the Gospel message of Christ to all NOT just the apostles/workers.

n Acts 1: 8 Jesus told his apostles and disciples, " But ye shall be received power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you (Acts 2) and ye (120) shall be Witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the ends of the earth."

Acts 8: 5 The church went everywhere preaching the word.

~~~ Jesus said, "And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be PREACHED in all the world for a Witness unto ALL nations; and then shall the end come." (Matt. 24:14)

~~~ Jesus last Great commission to the disciples and apostles was to go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.. Teaching them to observe All things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo I am with you always unto the end of the world." (Matthew 28:18-20)

[otto2]

That's a good reply delh, and efficient as usual nathan, thank you both.

I'm glad you broadly agree that the responsibility to spread the word lies not just with the workers; but with all believers, and the question is, how exactly do we do this?

I have friends in the church I attend who are particularly burdened with sharing the gospel with others, and they give sacrificially of their time; usually on Saturdays, in the streets trying to engage people in talking about the gospel. Much of the time they are rejected by their listeners, if indeed they can find people who will listen.

This of course is exactly what Paul did in many of the towns and cities where he planted churches. He went into the synagogues and into the streets and he reasoned and argued with the people there, telling them about Jesus. Acts 17:17 'So he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the God fearing Greeks, as well as in the market place day by day with those who happened to be there' (NIV) (He did not; according to my bible, hire a room and invite people to attend, on any occasion at all)

For myself, I have allowed my fear of men to inhibit me, thus far, from joining them.
It is far easier to say "oh, we don't need to do that, that's just words, what matters is how you live your life" and of course that's right too so long as we are living a life that causes people to ask us "tell me? there's something different about you, tell me the reason for the hope that you have?" If I might be so bold as to ask, when did that last happen to you?.

When I look at some of the "friends" I know, I do not necessarily see people who are allowing their light to shine on those around them. Some; in my presence, have gone out of their way to avoid drawing attention to, or defend their beliefs rather than use the occasion as an opportunity. Some have even said to me, that's not my job, we leave that to the workers.

And with the greatest respect, the adherance to a uniform dress code, and the withdrawing of social contact with people outside their belief system, has not been a method of communicating their beliefs' that has met with much success.

Now all this is OK so long as we do not set ourselves on a pedestal and say "we are the only people who are walking the true way". There are friends that I know who would not agree with that statement, but I regret to say they are much in the minority (in my experience), but I believe they would go as far as being able to have fellowship with believers from other churches, which is of course the acid test. As I have often heard said by the 'friends' "It's not what you say; it's what you do that counts".

The thing that I find most distressing when reading messages on board's like this, is the constant thread running through the "friends" postings of; we are the only true way, when it is clear that in complete contrast to the apostles time, almost no one outside their fellowship has ever heard of them, and they seem to go out of their way for it to remain that way.

[delh]

Aug 21, 2008 9:38:25 GMT -5 @otto2 said:

Now all this is OK so long as we do not set ourselves on a pedestal and say "we are the only people who are walking the true way". There are friends that I know who would not agree with that statement, but I regret to say they are much in the minority (in my experience), but I believe they would go as far as being able to have fellowship with believers from other churches, which is of course the acid test. As I have often heard said by the 'friends' "It's not what you say; it's what you do that counts".

The thing that I find most distressing when reading messages on board's like this, is the constant thread running through the "friends" postings of; we are the only true way, when it is clear that in complete contrast to the apostles time, almost no one outside their fellowship has ever heard of them, and they seem to go out of their way for it to remain that way.

Your reply Otto brings up several questions. From the above, I gather that you are well acquainted with several of those who you call "friends". You say some would tend to set themselves upon a pedestal and say we are the only people who are walking the true way. And you also say some would not agree with that. I wonder in your experience with the "friends" have you met any that strongly believe that Jesus is the only way, and it is only as we allow him to live in our lives and to follow him that we are truly walking in the way? Perhaps not all of the "friends" you are acquainted with see it exactly that way, but then in reality not all "friends" are at the same place of maturity in their walk with Jesus so it isn't too surprising that they not all see things exactly the same?

Concerning the pedestal statement, all I can tell you is my own experience with the "friends". I know of none that I would say set themselves on a pedestal as you state. Even those who come the closest to believing that what they have been drawn to by God and begun to walk in is Jesus own way(thus rejecting other ways that they see as offshoots or wrong changes from the way that Jesus came to establish)--these don't set them selves on a pedestal with the attitude of I am better than you, because I am up here on this pedestal, look at me. But rather they have the humble attitude of Lord why me? Why did you choose me when all these others around me have lived such better lives, humanly they are such better people. Why me?

I am not sure of your concern about almost no one knows of them outside of their little group. How many in Jesus day knew about his little group outside of Israel? I would conclude that everyone that the Father wanted to draw unto himself at that time knew about Jesus and his little group. Does it not say that no man can come unto the Father but by Him? Isn't it amazing to you in reading in the Acts of the ways that God drew people to become acquainted with Jesus and the little group of believers in that time.

Perhaps we greatly err when we begin to believe that God needs us to spread the gospel instead of realizing the greatness and the power with which he drew us to himself.

delh

[otto2]

delh, thank you for you reply.

I accept that my use of the words 'setting one's self on a pedestal' is perhaps not quite accurate insofar as the way we would normally use that phrase. It would normally be used to describe someone who was trying draw attention to themselves, and this is clearly not what the friends do in my experience.

It is more of a pedestal within their own minds, which is not at all obvious to the casual aquaintance. It is only when one is to probe deeper into their belief's that the pedestal mindset becomes apparant. It is also evident in many of the postings (but not all) by the friends on sites such as this, where the tone is one of regret; that the poor blind people out there are unable to see what they can see.

It is almost (but not completely) akin to the attitude of the Pharisee as he prayed alongside the tax collector. He thanked God that he was not like other men; he was so confident of his own righteousness.

Now I know the Pharisee was referring to his earthly righteousness rather than his spiritual righteousness but the principle is the same, he thanked God that he had been chosen ahead of others.

My own parents are a good example of this type of thinking. They would be appalled at the idea that they are putting themselves on a pedestal, but that is what they are doing when they believe in their hearts (as they do!) that only the people with whom they fellowship are saved.

My bible tell me that salvation is a free gift to all who believe. That it is because of Jesus's life; but more importantly his death, that we are set free from the bondage of Old Testament law.
Acts 13:39 says: "Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses."
John 20:31 says: "But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that by believing you may have life in his name".
John 6:28-29 says: What must we do to do the work God requires. Jesus answered, the work God requires is this: to believe in the one he has sent.
Jesus does not say the the work God requires is to obey a set of rules that men believe will find approval with God. (I say this with the greatest of respect; and do not wish to be antagonising in any way)
Of course, we do need to make our belief's manifest in a way that is commensurate with the fruits of the spirit, but none of us is qualified to sit in judgement as to whether that manifestation is, or is not good enough.

You refer to the book of Acts; and question my doubting that "the truth" looks the same as the early church.
Acts 1:15 states the group of believers numbered about 120,
Acts 2:41 says, about 3000 were added to their number (in one day!)
Acts 2:47b says, and the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
Acts 4:4 says, many who heard the message believed and the number of men grew to about 5000.
Acts 5:14, Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number.
Acts6: 7, So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalemincreased rapidly and a large numberof priests became obedient to the faith.

This does not sound at all like "the truth" to me, what it does sound like; is the spread of the gospel to all sincere believers regardless of their creed or denomination.

Your last paragraph questions whether we err when we believe God needs us to spread the gospel.
Acts 4:20, For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard.
Acts 4:29b (prayer to) enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness.
Acts5:42b, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Christ.
Acts 8:4, (and this is all believers here!) Those who had been scattered preached the word wherever they went.

Again this seems to me to resemble the actions of the believers in the city centres rather than the actions of the friends.

Please be assured I do not seek to antagonise, only to seek the real truth for myself. I have no doubt that many of the friends are saved, I firmly do not believe that they have the exclusive rights to that privilege.

[Joe]

Otto2,

Your assersion that almost no one outside the fellowship knows of it is far from the truth.

25 years ago I started working for a company that required me to travel from farm yard to farm yard. In my first couple of weeks I got to know a particular farmer very well. On my third visit he was talking about going to eat at a certain place with my boss who happened to be with me that day... and then turned to me and said you wouldn't want to go there... and I said why not.. and he said because you don't drink... and I said that doesn't mean I wouldn't want to eat good food...and he said well you don't go to places like that. My response was what do you mean?... he said, "well you meet with so and so on Sundays right? and I just about fell off of my chair.. and I said yes I do. Our families became very good friends after that.

No he never ask any questions, and had never gone to any meetings, but did go to church with in-laws of the elders daughter. We did talk about church functions and some of the things different churches did... but they were always eager to say how much they liked their church, how much they liked their pastor, how much they gave, and how they sent so many missionaries to other countries.

15 years ago, we moved into a community that had no families with in 30 miles, but our children heard the name 2x2's mentioned more than once in conversations amongst the neighbors parents not realizing they were close enough to hear. The only way we have ever referred to our fellowship is that we follow the Bible and we meet with other believers in a home on Sunday morning for fellowship, but they some how had made a connection. We inquired of the older ones who would have know of meetings in the years past... but no one thinks there were any even close to this area.

just some of my experiences in my little world....

[otto2]

Hi Joe,

I accept that if someone's behaviour is slightly different to what is considered "normal" in an area, then people would probably notice; and maybe even talk to each other in muttered whispers with furtive glances being cast towards the "different" individual.

Often the thing that draws their attention to a 2x2 in the first instance, is the way that person looks,and the friends set great store by this. Yet I cannot find even one reference in the bible where the disciples were recognised by the way they looked.

Where I live, if a Jehova's Witness family moved into the area, or some Mormons, or Scientologists, the people in the area would probably notice and talk about them behind their backs, but there is a vast difference between being noticed because you look or behave strangely; and actively communicating your beliefs to others, which is what this thread is about.

As the bible says,Romans 10:15b "how beautiful are the feet of those who bring the good news" and yes it does say "how can they preach unless they are sent" but most Christians believe we are all sent, to do our best when the opportunity arises.

We all fail; me especially, but I would not dare assert (as I have heard a worker quoted as saying) when I am rejected, "oh well, if God doesn't want him; we don't".

[delh]

Joe,
I appreciate what you wrote. I can readily agree that there are many many stories like your own that show just how far contacts with the friends have spread. It is also true that it is hid from the wise and prudent. I know that first hand since I grew up in a city with many friends, but never came in contact with them. Of course I can look back and realize that God's timing is perfect and I was not ready to listen at that time.

Shortly after hearing we were anxious to see my wife's grandparents who lived in a small town in the mountains of SW Colorado. We were sure that they had never had a chance to hear of this wonderful gospel in such a remote area. We found that they were really not interested, but had an interesting time with them. Grandpa moved to the area in the 1880's and had many tales to tell. At one point he talked about how they lived on wild game in the area and even sold it at the general store he built in 1905 (still a landmark there today). Then he made the curious statement that there wasn't a game law he hadn't broken, and he always did it with the game wardens and even the big shots from Denver.

We had heard that one of the friends in the area was a game warden, so I naturally asked him if he knew the man. He said that he did, and then was very quiet. Finally he said "I never broke any laws with him".

We also learned shortly thereafter that many years before a pair of sister workers had gospel meetings in the area, and had met grandpa at his store. They even asked if they might have gospel meetings in the store. He was not interested.

Delh

[delh]

Otto,
I believe that we are in agreement that only God can judge who is saved and who is not saved. Many times in your posts you refer to "most Christians". I am curious by what standards you judge them to be Christians? It would seem that the same shoe fits in both cases. We judge them not to be or to be. Are you separating in your mind the thought of being saved and being Christian? Or when you say "most Christians" are you referring to those who you feel are saved?

I would dare to say that as far as these two concepts go, that we all draw the line somewhere, even if we don't care to admit it to others. So where do you draw the line? In the quote below you refer to believers in other churches. By what standard to you determine them to be believers? By their words? Perhaps their life styles? Obviously not their dress code. Do you feel that Satin could deceive us into feeling that others are believers when they are not? Do you believe that God could send us a delusion that we would believe a lie?

Otto you said "being able to have fellowship with believers from other churches, which is of course the acid test." I wonder why you say this is the acid test? Certainly we are to have fellowship with those of like precious faith. We are to love one another. Jesus himself made it clear that he felt closer to those who do the will of his Father than those of his own flesh and blood. And He said by this shall all men know you are my disciples by the love you have one for the other. But how do we translate this fellowship we have that is so precious to us with those who we know intimately and feel a kindred spirit with to others? We have sweet fellowship with those whom we feel are doing the will of God, not because it is a commandment, but because we can not help but love them. It is a love that we can not feign or force. It is either there or it is not. We can love others souls, but we cannot love them in the same way. Jesus didn't and we should not expect to be able to do it either.

I am glad you have lowered the pedestal a little, but I am distressed that you still feel that your own parents have a pedestal in their minds? And here I thought we never could know the motives of another heart.

delh

[otto2]

I think, on reflection you're right delh, we all judge others even though we know we shouldn't; and as you have pointed out, I am not immune to that malaise.

I was raised 2x2; and I grew up with the teaching that this was the only true way, all other "Christians" were indeed being deceived by the devil. Lets make no mistake here, this was absolutely, categorically, unquestionably the view of my parents and grandparents; and as far as I could tell, the people with whom they enjoyed fellowship. This was the view that was taught from the platform, and in an altogether more subtle manner, the message in the gospel meetings.
I grew up believing this to be an absolute truth.

I was unable to conform to the rules and regulations of "the truth" and resigned myself to a lost eternity. I didn't really know what that meant but hey, I was young and it seemed on balance to be a long way off; and there were billions of people like me; and hey, they might all be wrong anyway.

Without giving too much away about myself and the mechanic's of how it happened I now believe this teaching to be an absolute heresy. I see Christians (non 2x2) who love the Lord with all their heart, soul and mind. They are truly repentant people who openly confess their sinful nature. Their lives have been changed beyond recognition from the people they once were. They are not living for themselves, knowing as they do that their lives are just a vapour, and they are burdened with the need to impart some of the "life" they have received, to others.

I see people who, unlike myself are not judgemental when they meet others who confess a faith in the Lord. They do not look (as I did) at whether they have a certain hairstyle, or what music they like, or what they have in their houses. They look to see if they can see the fruits of the Spirit made manifest in their lives. Do these "other Christians" revel in the word of God and seek in all humility to apply it to themselves? Do they seek Gods face through prayer and study his word for it's treasures? and do they try to show love and compassion towards those people who are the least like themselves in terms of background and social/income/ethnic status, (as Jesus taught in the parable of the good Samaritan, when the message in effect was, your neighbour is the one who is the least like yourself) If they do, there will be sweet fellowship with those believers regardless of the name by which they identify themselves.

I have sat amongst believers like this, and listened to the words spoken. I have been confronted by those words, convicted of my own wretchedness, and in due course I made my good confession.

Sadly I do not see these attributes when I look at my parents and many (but thankfully not all) of the people with whom they fellowship. I see people who only love ones who are like themselves or who exhibit some leanings in that direction. I see people who believe the rest if the world are just the devils' minions, all wallowing around in a cesspool of their own making. Unless of course there might be just one individual somewhere who might just be leaning towards conforming to their rules.

I see a people who demonstrate by their actions that they believe themselves to be the chosen few. I see polite but firm refusal to acknowledge the work of the Lord in anyone outside their group, and as you have pointed out, I in my turn, have not quite managed to shake off the teachings of my youth; and still carry some of that judgemental baggage.

[otto2]

When I re-read my last post, I can see it might be construed that I do not get on with my parents. I need to make clear that nothing could be further from the truth. (no pun intended!)

I have the utmost respect for my parents and enjoy their company. I owe them much. However we do not seem to be able to enjoy fellowship in the Lord.

[delh]

Otto,
I am so happy to hear that you have a good relationship with your parents. It is interesting that I was reading Nathans post and a reference he gave on an ancient writing. I found the following which really shows how some might look upon the friends today. Interesting how we develop standards by which we look at others.

And thus we find that in the year 1250 they were described in the following words by one of their persecutors, who was employed in the “punishment of heretics” :

“Of all sects, there is none so fatal to the Church as that of the Leonists. And this for three reasons.

1. Because they date back to a period so remote, for some say they date from the days of Pope Sylvester, 315 years after the birth of Christ.

2. Because they are the most widely spread, for there is scarce a known land in which this sect is not found.

3. Because, whilst other sects inspire horror by their blasphemies against God, this sect of the Leonists has a great appearance of piety, and especially for this reason, that they lead an honest life before men, and believe all that is right about God, and all that we find in the creed of the apostles. But at the same time they abhor the church of Rome and the Roman priests, to which sin the laity are but too much inclined.”

The inquisitor goes on to describe the marks by which these heretics may be known, so that the faithful Catholics may lay hands upon them when opportunity should offer.

“They are to be known by their behaviour, and their manner of speech. That is to say, they are in their behaviour staid, and modest; in their countenances there is to be seen neither pride nor fear. Their clothes are neither costly nor shabby. In business they are truthful. They avoid swearing and cheating. They do not seek after riches, but are contented with necessary things. They are chaste, and temperate in food and drink. They are not to be found in taverns, nor at dances, not at other idle amusements. Also they abstain from anger, they are always employed in their calling, or in teaching and learning, and are therefore absent from the instructions and prayers of the Church. They can further be known by their simple and modest speech, they abstain from idle words and light conversation, and also from lies and from oaths.”

It is true that we might have heard very different accounts of them had we listened to the gossip of the old women who sat spinning round the door on a summer’s day — or had we gone to hear the talk in the taverns and in the market.

“They call it going to worship, but I can tell you,” and the old woman would speak on in a solemn whisper, “I can tell you, for my grand-daughter’s husband’s uncle knows all about them — they meet together in dark cellars, and pray to the devil, and he comes in an awful shape, the very devil himself, and many of them have seen him.”

“Yes,” says an awestruck neighbour, “just what I heard myself. And there are devils that come in the shape of cats and frogs, and they kiss them and talk to them just as if they were Christians.”

“And I know for a fact,” says another, “that the devils come to them in the form of bumble-bees, and fly right into their mouths, and they fall down and worship Satan just as if they saw him in the midst of them.”

delh