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Post by otto on Oct 22, 2007 14:24:11 GMT -5
Thanks otto, We can agree to disagree, and I enjoy the freedom we have here to share our thoughts regardless. I believe the oil (Spirit) is costly....SO costly that we aren't able to pay the price. Jesus Christ paid the price that enables us to be regenerated in the Spirit....to be filled with the oil, so that our lamps light the way to the bridegroom. I believe that's what God's grace is about. I don't see it as a "grace period," but more of a generosity of mercy in the blood of His Son, providing the very thing we cannot provide for ourselves, the birth of the Spirit in us, without which the door to the wedding banquet will be shut to us, as it was to the foolish virgins. Blessings, Linda Before we get too confused with semantics, I am not advocating that our forgiveness can be 'bought' by mankind. That was paid in full on calvary. There are many parables that suggest that we have to do our part, and our part is not enough, because Jesus paid for our sins, yet the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hid in a field, when we learn about the teasure, we sell all and buy the field, and hidden in the field is the treasure that we could never have bought, had its value been revealed in advance. Yet, God bought the pearl of great price, with His blood, because He was the only one that could pay the price, because this treasure was not hid in the 'field'. thank you for sharing your thoughts, selah
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Post by Emy on Oct 22, 2007 17:44:56 GMT -5
And what about the foolish virgins? If the oil was given, not purchased, why did they not have and where did they go to buy?
In the end, it seems as if admittance was refused, not because of lack of light, or even lateness of hour, but because the bridegroom did not KNOW them. Maybe the necessary oil was the knowing of the bridegroom. Maybe to be ready they had to go often to him and receive the oil -- but it does still say, "buy."
Another passaage... when a man found the treasure (kingdom of heaven) hid in a field, he BOUGHT the field. He didn't buy the treasure - couldn't have afforded it? - but he did buy the field. Any thoughts what that field might have been?
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geoff
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Post by geoff on Oct 23, 2007 9:54:26 GMT -5
I've never read where those with oil could not have given some to those without. And following on from that I've thought that those with oil who didn't give any to the others were mean.
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Post by to Emy on Oct 23, 2007 14:07:49 GMT -5
And what about the foolish virgins? If the oil was given, not purchased, why did they not have and where did they go to buy? In the end, it seems as if admittance was refused, not because of lack of light, or even lateness of hour, but because the bridegroom did not KNOW them. Maybe the necessary oil was the knowing of the bridegroom. Maybe to be ready they had to go often to him and receive the oil -- but it does still say, "buy." Another passaage... when a man found the treasure (kingdom of heaven) hid in a field, he BOUGHT the field. He didn't buy the treasure - couldn't have afforded it? - but he did buy the field. Any thoughts what that field might have been? hmm, 'field' ...... could it be a vocation, a 'livlihood' that one would choose to endeavor in... Farming and mining are real livlihood, if not figuative in this parable....so if we can ''see'' the treasure [whether spiritual or natural] that is hidden in a ''field'' .....we are behooven according to this parable, to sell our current livlihood, lifestyle, in order to obtain this ''treasure'' ....as we can know that is referring to spiritual treasures, but as human beings, we can relate to the joy of obtaining a treasure/inheritance/prize in our human life, eh? we heard this parable 4 times in our conv. in ND.
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Post by being reasonable on Oct 24, 2007 11:18:36 GMT -5
I've never read where those with oil could not have given some to those without. And following on from that I've thought that those with oil who didn't give any to the others were mean. But did they know they were being ''mean''? It appears they gave a simple response to the request of giving oil, it seems they were genuinely concerned that they might run out themselves??? Just my thoughts
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geoff
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Post by geoff on Oct 24, 2007 11:52:48 GMT -5
"It appears they gave a simple response to the request of giving oil, it seems they were genuinely concerned that they might run out themselves???"
You might be right, but I guess this shows the inadequacies of analogies. If the oil represents the Spirit, are we saying there's a limit on how much is available? I don't think God the Spirit is limted like that, but surely our ability to understand it is...
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Post by Alan C on Oct 26, 2007 0:46:34 GMT -5
I've never read where those with oil could not have given some to those without. And following on from that I've thought that those with oil who didn't give any to the others were mean. But did they know they were being ''mean''? It appears they gave a simple response to the request of giving oil, it seems they were genuinely concerned that they might run out themselves??? Just my thoughts If the oil is the spirit would any give to others so that they all would miss the bridegroom?
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Post by Emy on Nov 1, 2007 21:03:37 GMT -5
After coming back to this thread, I see I must have failed to read the last page before responding! Someone already mentioned the treasure in the field, etc. Ooops. I thought it would be good to take a look at the complete parable of the virgins: Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. So, we have 10 virgins *like* the kingdom of heaven. It doesn't say they are like believers, but like the kingdom. However, in context, it might mean kingdom = believers. I'll go with that. Half were wise, half were foolish. (oh my!) The foolish took lamps - apparently burning, because they went out - but took no oil in a vessel. The wise took lamps AND oil in a vessel. They all rested while waiting. The cry came that the bridegroom was coming. They all got up and trimmed their lamps. The foolish discovered their oil was gone and asked the wise to share. The wise wanted to be sure their oil would last to the coming and suggested the others go to the source and buy more. The foolish went, but got back after the bridegroom arrived and shut the door. They requested to be allowed in. The bridegroom said, I don't know you - nothing about being late or out of oil. Jesus made the point that we should always be ready. With what? Knowing him? That was the reason given for exclusion of the foolish, so maybe the oil is not the Spirit at all, but knowing our Lord. The wise made sure they knew him well before they rested. They clearly told the foolish that there was a place they could go to fill their empty lamps. They clearly said they would have to buy the "oil." What's the currency for getting to know our Lord?
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Post by Joe on Nov 2, 2007 15:58:41 GMT -5
I think that we take the analogy a little to far when thinking of this parable.
The oil is the Spirit dwelling within yes.... but the asking for oil from the others is the silliest question a person can ask in relation to the Spirit. We don't get the Spirit from others, we get it from heaven. It is the effort that we put forth to obtain that is the price of the oil or Spirit. No the Bridegroom didn't say... no you can not enter because you didn't have the oil in time... or you are late... but He said "I know you not."
Are we willing to put our own agenda and desires aside and give our life to Jesus? Are we willing to spend the time to get to know him... it is one thing to accept the fact that he died for us and believe that, but it is another thing to actually get to know him. We can introduce someone to another person, and we can tell others about one we know, but only in the getting together and spending time with each other can we get to know someone good enough to love them as we should love our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
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Post by nancye on Nov 10, 2007 2:36:35 GMT -5
No, we certainly cannot GET the Spirit from someone else. We can look and talk pretty much the same. As the 5 foolish may have before their lamps went out. We can "borrow" thoughts that someone else has expressed. We could have taken or read notes that someone else has spoken. And get along with that for awhile. We could even speak them again in mtg. or in conversation. But there does come a time of reckoning.............. Just 2 chapters prior in Matt 23:27 Christ referred to the scribes and Pharisees as "whited seplechres"...... They seem pretty recognizable for what they really were, but not to everybody and probably especially not to themselves............. We simply have to have Life within.
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Post by nancye on Nov 10, 2007 3:04:58 GMT -5
Thanks otto, We can agree to disagree, and I enjoy the freedom we have here to share our thoughts regardless. I believe the oil (Spirit) is costly....SO costly that we aren't able to pay the price. Jesus Christ paid the price that enables us to be regenerated in the Spirit....to be filled with the oil, so that our lamps light the way to the bridegroom. I believe that's what God's grace is about. I don't see it as a "grace period," but more of a generosity of mercy in the blood of His Son, providing the very thing we cannot provide for ourselves, the birth of the Spirit in us, without which the door to the wedding banquet will be shut to us, as it was to the foolish virgins. Blessings, Linda
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Post by nancye on Nov 10, 2007 3:07:06 GMT -5
The cost is simply to give our lives back to God, when human nature would just as soon save them for ourselves.................
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Post by nancye on Nov 10, 2007 12:37:44 GMT -5
I awakened this morning again thinking about giving our lives back to God....as mentioned above. I'm remembering when the words of hymn #353 came very forceably to me: "God a body has prepared me- He desires in it to dwell; I will yield I cannot longer His unequelled love repel." I remember understanding we don't have be who we're NOT. (As in copying someone just to please them.) We CAN be our authentic selves. In fact we MUST be. Hymn #24 was very real: verse 2: "From Thee I would not hide My sin because of fear- What men may think, And as I am appear; Just as I am, O Lord, Not what I'm thought to be; Just as I am, a struggling soul, For life and liberty." Colossians 1:25-29 comes to mind: vs:27 ...."Christ in you the hope of glory." I really like the entire thought expressed there. .........I'm going out on a limb here....... But I've thought that we don't have to be "clones" of each other. (I think it's interesting that the first cloning we noted in the news was a sheep named Dolly, I believe.) We can simply present an honest heart. Being just who we are. Hymn #286 says: "Dear Lord an offering I would bring To Thee, my Prophet, Priest and King; Though small and mean the gift may be, 'Tis all I have to give to Thee, 'Tis all I have to give to Thee." .......... Accept I pray, the life I give to Thee today; 'Tis Thine: Forever I my claim resign."
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ram
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Post by ram on Nov 24, 2007 17:42:44 GMT -5
I have just joined this board and as yet I am unfamiliar with it. It will also be a few days before I get a chance to give it a proper study. However, I have had a quick glance over this thread and noticed the thief on the cross being mentioned. Usually he pops up as proof of 11th hour salvation or even as proof of "faith without works" being acceptable. To be quite honest I am constantly amazed at how shallowly this Christian figure is viewed by many.
It is true we have few recorded details of this man other than the circumstantial evidence that he had been a thief facing the just punishment of the law. However, it appears obvious to me, from the words of this man that he had foreknowledge of Jesus prior to the cross. He knew that Jesus had done nothing amiss and that he was the Son of God to whom he could turn to for "soul salvation." The circumstances that Jesus was in would hardly lend confidence to a complete unbeliever at this time ?
It seems to me that considering the excruciating pain this man was suffering, this was not the time when he could properly assess who Jesus was (for the first time). We do not know his past (other than that he stole) and for all we know he could have been someone who Jesus had told to "sin no more," but unfortunately did ! This is just one option open to us, since his history is silent.
Without knowing his history we cannot just assume that he had not known Christ beforehand and had gained salvation at the final hour. In fact the dialogue between this thief and Jesus suggests a possible or even probable relationship beforehand ?
I like to think that the final hours of this thief were "packed with works," not deprived of them. At a time when Jesus's Disciples and even his Father in Heaven had deserted him, this thief spoke up for Jesus. We only read a little of what was said, but there was a whole audience listening below. One of the strangest sermons ever, perhaps ? What else did he say that has not been recorded ? Did his actions not convey a strong message ?
Who amongst us could have supported Jesus in such a manner in these circumstances. After all, the other thief knew that if Jesus was really the Son of God, then he had the power to save them all.
Ever thought there were "two" preachers at Calvary ? Now I don't buy into the "there must be two preachers" nowadays belief anymore, but it may have had a relevance there in those final hours of the law ? Again just a thought.
It just might be that the thief on the cross did more spiritual works in the few ( but long excrutiating) hours on the cross than most of us pack in a lifetime, considering circumstances for circumstances ?
Thief on the cross saved without works ? I don't think so ! The faith that he showed in Jesus considering his and Jesus's circumstances was considerable, much more than a mustard seed. It produced "instant" works and much more important than moving mountains, it opened the gates of Heaven to receive him !
Anyway, now that I've got that of my chest...................?
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Post by Richard McFarland on Nov 24, 2007 22:16:52 GMT -5
ram,
With posts such as this, you will be an honor to have here.
In just a few short paragraphs, perhaps from weeks of meditation, you have shown clearly the need for openness in each and every Christian, no matter how they choose to worship.
Can we be saved by Faith, without works as some believe?
Speaking of the thief:
But truly to be saved without works? I'm not so sure. As you, I believe that many good works were accomplished on the cross by the thief.
The thief was indeed saved at the 11th hour, but we cannot rely on this in our own lives for death can come in an instant.
Did the thief have prior knowledge of Jesus? Of this I am sure! Jesus was known throughout the land and His fame (Miracles/Works?) were well known.
Had the thief been thinking of seeking the master and repenting before he was caught? We will never know.
The thief might or might not have had an earlier encounter with Jesus or even one of His Apostles or Disciples but whatever the case we can see that acceptance is rewarded instantly! No waiting period to see how things are going to work out, no list of brownie points to achieve through works that can be seen of the world and no grace period to see if you really made the "right choice."
Yes, there is so much more to the story of the thieves on the crosses beside Jesus that we may never know but were used as a testimony to those witnesses.
Thank you for a wonderful new study for myself which I will undertake and relish.
In Christ,
Richard
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