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Post by Richard McFarland on Sept 25, 2007 23:16:28 GMT -5
I sometimes see much confusion in the Truth concerning Faith and Works. Some say the Workers preach "We are saved by Works," while others say we are "Saved by Faith," (as in Grace through Faith).
Much can be said and learned through discussion and the inclusion of snippets of Testimonies and Convention and Gospel meeting notes. No names or locations, please.
What does Jesus say? What did the Apostles write? What do you believe?
Searching for Fullness in Christ,
Richard
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Post by nathanb on Sept 26, 2007 0:13:21 GMT -5
I sometimes see much confusion in the Truth concerning Faith and Works. Some say the Workers preach "We are saved by Works," while others say we are "Saved by Faith," (as in Grace through Faith).
Much can be said and learned through discussion and the inclusion of snippets of Testimonies and Convention and Gospel meeting notes. No names or locations, please.
What does Jesus say? What did the Apostles write? What do you believe?Searching for Fullness in Christ,
Richard
Eph. 2:8,9 For by Grace are ye SAVED through Faith; and that NOT of yourselves: it is the GIFT of God. NOT of works, lest any man should boast. |
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Post by deanneswenson on Sept 26, 2007 2:00:01 GMT -5
Learned a description years ago: a boat with 2 oars - one faith, one works. You need to pull equally on both, or you won't get anywhere!
We just read Galations tonight, and had a little discussion on this topic - it seems as though Paul and James both wrote about this in their letters.
Deanne
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Post by orbit on Sept 26, 2007 19:04:03 GMT -5
Learned a description years ago: a boat with 2 oars - one faith, one works. You need to pull equally on both, or you won't get anywhere! I am always brought back to these verses, Ephesians: 2:8-10, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." |
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Post by nathanb on Sept 26, 2007 21:44:00 GMT -5
Learned a description years ago: a boat with 2 oars - one faith, one works. You need to pull equally on both, or you won't get anywhere! We just read Galations tonight, and had a little discussion on this topic - it seems as though Paul and James both wrote about this in their letters. Deanne
I think James wrote about Faith without works is dead.
(James 1:24-26) Ye see then how that by works! a man is justified, and NOT by faith only. Likewise also was NOT Rahab the harlot justified by works! when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so Faith without works is dead also.
Works! proves your Faith is genuine. |
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Post by Alan C on Sept 29, 2007 5:21:43 GMT -5
I sometimes see much confusion in the Truth concerning Faith and Works. Some say the Workers preach "We are saved by Works," while others say we are "Saved by Faith," (as in Grace through Faith).
Much can be said and learned through discussion and the inclusion of snippets of Testimonies and Convention and Gospel meeting notes. No names or locations, please.
What does Jesus say? What did the Apostles write? What do you believe?Searching for Fullness in Christ,
Richard I would ask. Could we be saved without works? I like about the oars  They must both work together, works prove our faith. |
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Post by nathanb on Sept 29, 2007 16:09:30 GMT -5
I sometimes see much confusion in the Truth concerning Faith and Works. Some say the Workers preach "We are saved by Works," while others say we are "Saved by Faith," (as in Grace through Faith).
Much can be said and learned through discussion and the inclusion of snippets of Testimonies and Convention and Gospel meeting notes. No names or locations, please.
What does Jesus say? What did the Apostles write? What do you believe?Searching for Fullness in Christ,
Richard I would ask. Could we be saved without works? I like about the oars They must both work together, works prove our faith. |
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Post by mzbetts1 on Sept 29, 2007 18:02:38 GMT -5
I, too, really like the helpful analogy of the oars which has been posted. Thanks. I really believe the workers might be misunderstood when they try to explain this to us because it is not easy to understand if we don't expand our meditation. Many times I feel like the Ethiopian eunuch, I need someone to guide my understanding. But when I think about this question, I believe the thief on the cross even had works. His believing in Jesus was his works and was the same kind Abraham had which is counted as a work of righteousness to him. Jas 2:21, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar." Heb 11:6 "But without faith it is impossible to please him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Then James 2:26, "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." Abraham believed God and he had opportunity for actions to follow. The thief on the cross was cut off and did not have opportunity for more work because the day changed into night for him. Jesus said, "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work."
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Post by Alan C on Sept 29, 2007 18:49:49 GMT -5
I would ask. Could we be saved without works? I like about the oars They must both work together, works prove our faith. Nathan I believe he did have works while he was on his cross. If we read what he said to the other thief and what he said about Jesus, I believe he repented of his life and I believe repenting is works. |
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Post by Emy on Sept 29, 2007 21:02:51 GMT -5
Re: what the apostles said about faith:
2 Pet 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Post by nathanb on Sept 29, 2007 21:03:53 GMT -5
I believe we can be SAVED without works. I like to think of the thief on the Cross. He was SAVED or be with Jesus in Paradise by having Faith in Jesus as His Savior. Nathan I believe he did have works while he was on his cross. If we read what he said to the other thief and what he said about Jesus, I believe he repented of his life and I believe repenting is works.
Your question was could we be SAVED without works? My answer is, Yes. Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:8 For by GRACE! are ye SAVED through Faith! and that NOT of yourselves: it is the GIFT of God... NOT of works! lest any man should boast.
We don't want to get the cart before the horse. Faith must come first then works do follow to prove our faith is genuine or for real. |
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Post by Alan C on Sept 30, 2007 4:10:07 GMT -5
Nathan I believe he did have works while he was on his cross. If we read what he said to the other thief and what he said about Jesus, I believe he repented of his life and I believe repenting is works.
Your question was could we be SAVED without works? My answer is, Yes. Paul wrote in Ephesians 2:8 For by GRACE! are ye SAVED through Faith! and that NOT of yourselves: it is the GIFT of God... NOT of works! lest any man should boast.
We don't want to get the cart before the horse. Faith must come first then works do follow to prove our faith is genuine or for real.Yes I agree |
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geoff
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Post by geoff on Sept 30, 2007 15:12:12 GMT -5
I think this question brings up the difference between salvation and reward.
Fath begets salvation
Works begets reward.
If we were saved and died immediately after, without time to do anything that could be described as works, would we then have not been saved?
IMO No, salvation is possible without works, but must be a rarity.
There's no work we can do save ourselves.
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Post by Alan C on Oct 1, 2007 3:01:39 GMT -5
I think this question brings up the difference between salvation and reward. Fath begets salvation Works begets reward. If we were saved and died immediately after, without time to do anything that could be described as works, would we then have not been saved? IMO No, salvation is possible without works, but must be a rarity. There's no work we can do save ourselves. Could obedience be discribed as works? Can we have salvation if we obey not? I was thinking more of the man on the cross and wondering if he had faith? |
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geoff
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Post by geoff on Oct 1, 2007 14:33:38 GMT -5
The question of how to define works is a difficult one. Some say that we need to "accept Christ". Is that not an action, a positive one on our part, and therfore a "work" ?
The Thief acknowledged Jesus. Is that a work?
Other describe works as things we physically do, such as charitable acts, acts of adoration, reverence, devotion, worship.
But the Thief had no opportunity to get many of those things done, so he couldn't have been saved by works, but by faith only.
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