Chris believes Peter Waldo as the Founder

[nathanb]

Today at 0:22, chrisc Waldensian wrote:

Nathan, Please do not rewrite Waldensian history. We were called several names from the beginning.

I would urge all to read this source--it even details how the erroneous notion of Waldensian antiquity came about.

www.xenos.org/essays/waldframe.htm

Beginnings
According to one report from an inquisition prosecution found in Church archives in Carcassonne, France, the movement known as the "Poor of Lyons" began in about 1170. The document goes on to state that Waldo himself had been a rich merchant who underwent a religious experience which led him to renounce all of his wealth, and ". . .observe a life of poverty and evangelical perfection, as the Apostles."12 This sort of commitment can hardly be considered unusual during this period of history. However, Waldo went further:

.......

The fact that Waldo and his followers rejected riches and lived an austere life was not objectionable to the hierarchy of the Roman Church. The same thing was being done by tens of thousands all over Europe. Neither do there seem to have been substantive doctrinal differences at first.

This last point is important, because the most intriguing aspect of the Poor is precisely that there was initially no important doctrinal difference. They saw themselves as Roman Catholics who were carrying the doctrines of Christianity further than their weaker brethren. They even sent a delegation to the third Lateran Council in 1179 to obtain Papal approval of their work. There they were examined by an English friar, Walter Mapes, who in 1184 was in Rome for the council. He recounts,

We saw Waldensian men in the Roman Council held by Pope Alexander the Third. They were simple and unlearned, and were thus called from the name of their founder, Valdo, who was a citizen of Lyons on the Rhone. They presented to the Pope a book written in the old Provencal language,15 in which there were texts and comments of the Psalms, and of many books of the Old and New Testament.16

Mapes questioned them at the council along the following lines,

Do you believe in God the Father? They answered, "We believe." And in God the Son? They answered "We believe" And in God the Holy Spirit? They answered, "We believe." And in the mother of Christ? They answered "We believe". . .

At this point the court broke out in laughter because according to Scholastic Theology, one could only use the formula "believe in" with reference to the Trinity. After this conversation, the delegation "withdrew, covered with disgrace," because they had fallen for a trick question.17 They were ordered to cease preaching, and obey their bishop.

It is easy to see from this incident that there was no serious issue of doctrine at stake. The Waldensian dispute then, centered on the issue of authority. It was the fact that they translated the scriptures, studied them, and "presumed" to preach what they believed, without reference to the clergy that was unacceptable.18 Melia declares,

. . .when John a Bellismanibus, Archbishop of Lyons, about the year 1182 . . .forbade them both to preach and . . .expelled them from his diocese; no mention was made of their holding any doctrine at variance with the teaching of the Church: they were simply expelled because, being laymen and illiterate, . . . they presumed, against the prohibition of their superiors, to preach, and exercise an office which was confided to the Apostles and to their successors only.19

They were arguing that they could draw insight directly from the pages of their translated Bibles rather than from the Roman Church.20 As one of our earliest sources, Alan of Lille put in his chapter entitled, "By what authority and for what reason it is shown that no one ought to preach unless he has permission from the Bishop,"

There are certain heretics. . .called Waldenses, after their heresiarch, who was named Waldus, who--led by his emotions, not sent by God--founded a new sect and presumed to preach without the authority of the Bishop, without divine inspiration, without knowledge, and without literacy. He was an irrational philosopher, a prophet without a vision, an apostle without a mission, a teacher without an instructor, and his foolish disciples have led the simple folk astray in many parts of the world.




~~ To Chris Waldensian:
Let us compare your website and source of information, and mine about Peter Waldo as your church Founder, his belief, teachings, orgin, and Itinerant ministry. Let the readers see where Peter Waldo got his idea, belief, Itinerant ministry from, Ok... Chris?

(Matthew 24:14) Jesus said to His disciples, "And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be Preached in ALL the world as a Witness to ALL nations, and then shall the End Come." After Jesus' resurrection In (Matthew 28:16-20) Jesus spoke to the 11 apostles, "....Go ye therefore and Teach ALL nations, Baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to Observe ALL things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the End of the world."

In (Acts 1:1-11) Jesus said unto his disciples, "Ye shall receive Power, when the Holy Ghost comes upon you, and ye shall be "Witnesses" unto ME, both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the End part of the earth."

Paul's Fourth Mission Journey

It is clear from (Acts 13:1-21; 17) that Paul went on three journeys. There is also reason to believe that he made a "Fourth" journey after his "Release" from the Roman imprisonment recorded in (Acts 28). The conclusion that such a journey did, indeed, take place is based on:

1) Paul's declared intention to go to Spain (Romans 15:24,28).

2) Eusebius' implication that Paul was released following his first Roman imprisonment (Ecclesiastical History, 2.22.2-3).

3) Statements in early Christians literature that he took the gospel as far as Spain (Clement of Rome, epistle to the Corinthians, Chapter 5: actus Petri Vercellenses, chapter 1-3; Muratiorian Canon, lines 34-39). [New International Version].

The place Paul may have visited after his release from prison is indicated by statements of intention in his earlier writings, and by subsequent mention in the Pastoral letters. The order of his travel cannot be determined with certainty, but the itinerary below seems likely.


1. Rome--- released from prison (Acts 28) in A.D. 62
2. Spain--- 62-64 (Romans 15:24,28)
3. Crete---64-65 (Titus 1:5)
4. Miletus--- 65 (II Timothy 4:20)
5. Colosse---66 (Philemon 22)
6. Ephesus---66 (I Timothy 1:3)
7. Philippi--- 66 (Philippians; I Timothy 1:3)
8. Nicopolis---66, 67 (Titus 3:12)
9. Rome again---67
10. Martyrdom --- 67/68 Paul was beheaded by Emperor Nero in Rome.

After the church had received the power of the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2), it began, at once, to greatly multiply, and 8,000 souls were saved (Acts 2:41; Acts 4:4), to extend itself to the different cities and town of Judea.

At the close of the "apostolic period", the church had spread beyond the limits of Judea to Macedonia, Crete, Asia Minor (Turkey today), Pisidia, Greece, Italy, Cilicia, Pontus, Cappadocia, Bithynia, Spain, Gaul (France) and Britain. The successors of the "Apostles," who were commonly called the "Apostolic fathers," were Polycarp, Hermas, Clement or Rome, Ignatius, and Papias.

Apostolic Fathers' Writings

Clement of Rome 1st century. He may well have been a companion of both Peter and Paul (Phil. 4:3). On the behalf of the church in Rome, he wrote a letter to the Corinthian church, in aid the church leaders who had been ousted by a minority faction.

Ignatius (A.D. 35-107) A personal disciple of one or more apostles. He was executed in Rome A.D. 107. On his way to Rome as a prisoner, Ignatius wrote letters to several churches; these letters give considerable insight into the structure and beliefs of the churches in Asia Minor (Turkey) at the close of the apostolic age.

Papias (A.D.60-130) A disciple of John the apostle and a friend of Polycarp. He was a Bishop (pastor) of Hierapolis in Asia Minor (Turkey today). His testimony concerning the Gospels of Matthew and Mark has been invaluable to the church.

Polycarp (A.D. 69-156) Another disciple of John apostle. He was faithful bishop (pastor) of Smyrna. He was arrested in his old age and was burned to death.

Justin Martyr (A.D. 160) When the disciples had seen Jesus ascending into heaven, and had believed, and received the Power, He sent upon them from heaven, they went to Every race of men. And, they taught these things and were called apostles. These Twelve disciples went forth throughout the known parts of the world, and continued to show His greatness with all modesty and uprightness.

Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Christ is said to have baptized Peter alone and Peter baptized Andrew; Andrew and, John. The two of them baptized James and the rest. To Jeame the Just. John, and Peter, the Lord imparted knowledge after His resurrection. These imparted it to the rest of the apostles. And the rest of the apostles imparted it to the "Seventy" (in Luke 10:1-2), of whom Barnabas was one.

Tertullian (A.D. 197) As their Divine Master commanded them, "When He, the Spirit of Truth will come, He will lead you into ALL truth." You have the work of the apostles also predicted: How beautiful are the feet of those who Preach the gospel of peace, which bring glad tidings of good NOT of war, nor evil tidings (Isa. 52:7). In response to which is the (Psalm 19:5) "Their voice is gone through all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world." We see the voice of the apostles have gone forth into all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. His disciples, also spreading over the world, did as their Master commanded them.

Origin (A.D. 245) On this account, the apostles LEFT Israel and accomplished that which had been commanded them by the Savior: "Make disciples of ALL the nations." It was by the help of a Divine power that these men taught Christianity, and succeeded in leading others to embrace the Word of God. For it was NOT any power of theirs speaking. At the request of their Master and God, the disciples scattered over the world and gave forth his teachings for Salvation.

Lactantius (A.D. 304-313) At this time after the ascension, his apostles were 11 in number. To them was added Matthias, in the place of the traitor Judas Isccariot. And, afterward Paul was added. Then they were dispersed throughout ALL the earth to Preach the gospel of the Lord, as their Master had commanded them. For the next 25 years (until the beginning of the reign of Emperor Nero), they busied themselves in laying the foundations of the churches in every province and city.

Paul's Missions' Journey and the Vaudois Christians/Apostles:

(Romans 15:24) Paul wrote approximately (A.D. 67) Whenever I journey to Spain, I shall come to you. (Col. 1:23) The gospel which you heard... was preached to every creature under heaven.

Clement of Rome (A.D.96) After preaching both in the east and west, Paul gained the illustrious reputation due to his faith, having taught righteousness to the whole world, and having come to the extreme limit of the west [the extreme limit of the west refers to either Spain or Britain.] Irenaeus (A.D. 180) The churches which have been planted in Germany do not believe or hand down anything different, nor do those in Spain, nor those in Gaul (France).

Tertullian (A.D. 197)... By this time, the name of Christ has reached the manifold confines of the Moors, (Germany) all the limits of Spain, the diverse nations of the Gaul (France) and the haunts the Britons inaccessible to the Romans, but subjugated to Christ... furthermore, there are Germans, Scythians, and persons of many remote nations and provinces and islands many to us unknown and which we can scarcely enumerate. In all the places, the name of Christ (who is already come) reigns. Christ's name extending everywhere, believed everywhere, worshipped by all the above-enumerated nations, and is reigning everywhere.

Mutatorian Fragment (A.D. 200) The principle on which Luke wrote was to write only of what fell under his own notice. And, he shows this clearly by the omission of martyrdom of Peter, and also of the journey of Paul, when he went from the city of Rome to Spain.

[nathanb]

The Pilgrim Church by E.H. Broadbent Page 81-101

The Vaudois (A.D.68-1800) are, in fact, "Descended" from those refugees from ITALY who after Paul (A.D. 68) apostle had there "Preached" the Gospel, abandoned their beautiful country and FLED, like the Woman mentioned in the Book of (Revelation, Chapter 12), to these Wild mountains (Swiss Alps), where they have to, this day, handed down the Gospel from "father to son," in the SAME purity and simplicity as it was preached by Paul apostle.

The Brethren in the valleys NEVER lost the knowledge and consciousness of their "Origin" and "Unbroken" history there. In the Alpine Valleys of Piedmont (Italy) there had been, for centuries, congregations of believers calling themselves brethren, who came widely known as "Waldenses or Vaudois," though they did NOT, themselves, accept the name. They trace their "Origin" in those parts, back to Apostolic times.

Like many of the so-called Cathar, Paulican, and other churches, these were NOT "Reformed" NEVER having degenerated from the New Testament patterns, as had the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox and some others, but having ALWAYS maintained, in varying degree, the Apostolic tradition.

From the time of the Emperor Constantine (3rd century) there HAD continued to be a "Succession" of those who preached the Gospel and founded churches, uninfluenced by the relations between Church and State existing at the time. This accounts for the large bodies of Christians, well established in the Scriptures, and free from idolatry and the other evils prevailing in the dominant professing Church, to be found in the Taurus Mountains and Alpine valleys.

These latter, in the quiet seclusion of their mountains, had remained unaffected by the development of the Roman Catholic Church. The "Vaudois" considered the Scriptures, both for doctrine and church order, to be binding of their time, and NOT rendered obsolete by change of circumstances. It was SAID of them that their whole manner of thought and Action was an endeavor to "HOLD FAST" the character of Original Christianity.

When, from the 14th century onward, the valleys were invaded and the people had to negotiate with surrounding rulers, they always emphasized this to the Prince of Savoy, who had the longest dealings with them, they could "ALWAYS" assert without fear of contradiction the uniformity of their faith, from Father to Son through time immemorial, even the Very AGE of the Apostles.

To Francis I of France they said, in 1544: "This confession is that which we have received from our ancestors, even from Hand to Hand, according as their predecessors in ALL time and EVERY Age have Taught and delivered.

Let your Highness consider, that this Religion, in which we live, is NOT merely our religion of the present day, or a religion discovered for the FIRST time only a few years ago, as our enemies Falsely pretend, but it is religion of our fathers and of our grandfathers, yea, of our forefathers and of our predecessors still more remote. It is the religion of the Saints and of the Martyrs, of the Confessors and of the Apostles."

When they came into contact with the Reformers in the 16th century, they said, "Our ancestors have often recounted us that we have EXISTED from the time of the Apostles. In all matters nevertheless we agree with you, and thinking as you think, from the Very days of the apostles themselves, we have ever been consistent respecting the faith."

www.ccel.org/b/bevan/friends, The Three Friends of God in the 14th Century.

The short account given in the following pages of Three of the "Friends of God" of the 14th century, is but a small fragment of a history which would form itself a voluminous library, the history of the "Brethren" of the Middle Ages known to us "Many names", but in England chiefly as the Lollards or Boni Homines....

In the 14th history of the "Friends of God" who stood in immediate connection with "Vaudois and Waldensian", the Brethren wrote: They said that about the year (A.D. 320) after Christ, the Church in Rome!! had fallen into worldliness, and was "Corrupted" through evil teaching.

For the Roman emperor Constantine, instead of persecuting the Christians, had begun to honor them, and to give them "Worldly" Power and riches, and the "Bishops" became lords and princes, and the things of God were judged by worldly judges, and NOT by the Word of the Lord. And, because their fathers had
"Held Fast" to the Ancient teachings of the apostles of the Lord, they had been KILLED.

Many of them had FLED to the mountains in Italy, and Switzerland (Alps mountains), France and some to other countries.

God had kept them as the apple of His eye, and they could "NEVER" be destroyed though they had to suffer hardship, persecution, death, from generation to generation. So, as time went on, they were found in many races, and in many lands, and wherever they went, they brought the Word of God, as they "Believed" the apostles taught it.

A Condensed History of the Early Church by J.V. Kirkland

The churches of Rome, Antioch, Alexandria, and Carthage now (A.D. 240), began to be great centers of religious power, and had, by a surprising extent, changed the form of government. Instead of old government of democracy, they had become to be monarchies; and the purity and simplicity of the "Primitive" churches were given up for worldly pride and "Superstition." Even in those churches where so much corruption had crept in, there were many pious men, who groaned under these innovation and impositions, which were so sad corrupting their beloved Zion.

From the reign of Emperor Septimius Severus, in (A.D 210) till the reign of Decius, Christians were allowed a great deal of religious liberty. When Decicus came to the throne in (A.D.249), he required, by edict, all persons in the empire to conform to pagan worship. This edict rent asunder the churches. Hundreds apostatized, and many were martyred. When this trial abated after two years, many apostates applied to the church for restoration, and the lovers of popularity were ready at once to accept them.

The was a Bishop (Pastor) in the church at Rome at this time named "Novatian," marked piety and learning. His address was eloquent and insinuating, and his moral were irreproachable. Novatian strongly opposed the admission of such, as had accepted the pagan worship and blasphemed the name of Jesus, to escape suffering during the time of persecution.

Bishop Fabian, who was the pastor of the church in Rome, was martyred during the persecution under Decius (A.D. 249); and Cornelius, a man who was eager to take in all who had denied the faith during the times of persecution, was elected which resulted in a permanent "Division" in the church of Rome. This Division resulted in TWO denominations. Once continued upon the original principle, while the other developed into the form of government the "Roman Catholic (universal) Church."

Emperor Constantine came to the throne of the empire in (A.D. 306), and during his conflict with Maximus in (A.D. 312), he professed the Christian religion. He first tried to unite the "Novatians" with the "Cornelius' party", but the Novatianists refused this union on account of the corruption of the Cornelius party. Constantine finally joined the Christian church (the Cornelius party) on May 22, A.D 337. He now establishes the Christian religion by LAW. They called their party the "Catholic Church."

The term "Catholic" denotes anything Universal, or Entire. The church Catholic means all the members of Christ's body; hence the extravagance of the claim. This party being now established by law, began to incorporate almost ALL the heathern festivals that were celebrated while the empire was under pagan religion.

The Christians were so proud to think that they had an emperor to protect them, that they submitted almost all control in his hands. The whole body of the church now took the side and power and worldly show. It began to hold councils, instead of consulting the Scriptures, to decide all the affairs of doctrine and practice.

The chairman of these councils finally began to be called "Universal Bishops," and was regarded as having general ecclesiastical authority. The first to assume this title was John, the Faster in A.D. 588. Boniface, III seemed to be the first to establish the "Succession of Popes!"

It is evident, from an abundance of undoubted evidence, that the Novatianists resorted to the Valleys of Piedmont (Italy) about the beginning of the 5th century and were called "Waldenses." Some of the prominent ministers and writers of the church, while they were called "Novatianinsts" were Novatian, Novatus, Sampronianus, Cyril, Albanus, Agelius, Acesius, Sisinnius, Marcian, Mark, and Leo. These exercise their ministry from (A.D. 240-439.)

There are various opinions as to the origin of the name "Waldenses." The most popular opinion is that they derived their names from the Valleys of Piedmont.

Dr. McLean, the learned translator of Mosheim's "History" in a note on Mosheim's account of the Waldenses, who supposes that they derived their name from Peter Waldo (A.D. 1160) says, "We may venture to affirm the Contrary, with the learned Beza and other writers of note; for it seems evident from the best record that "Valdus" derived his name from the true Valdenses of Piedmont, who doctrine he "ADOPTED" and who were known by the name "Vaudois" and "Valdenses' " before he or his immediate followers existed."

If the Valdenses had derived their name from any eminent teacher, it would have been from Valdo, who was remarkable for the purity of his doctrine in the 9th century, and who was the contemporary and chief counselor of "Berengarius"; but the truth is that they derived their name from their Valley's in Piedmont, which is their language, and are called 'Vauz'hence' Vaudois,' hence "Vaudois," their true name.

Hence, Peter Waldo, or as others call him, "John"---of Lyons, France was called in Latin, "Valdus," because he had "ADOPTED" their doctrine; hence the terms "Valdenses" and "Waldenses" used by those who write in English or Latin in the place of "Vaudois."

Reinerius Saccho, a former Waldensian who later became a Catholic inquisitor, excreted such a furious zeal for the "Destruction" of the Waldenses, lived but about 80 years after Valdus (Peter Waldo, of France A.D. 1160) must, therefore, be supposed to have known whether he was the real "Founder" of the "Valdenses or Leonists".

Yet, it is remarkable that he speaks of the "Leonists" as a sect that had flourished above 500 years, and even mentions authors of note who make their antiquity remount the apostolic age, Reinerius also observes: "The Vaudois declare themselves to be the "Apostles' Successors" to have apostolic authority and the keys of binding and loosing. They say that a man is then first baptized when he is received into their community." Of all the sects, observes Reinerius, which have been or now exist, now is more injurious to the Church of Rome, for 3 reasons:

1) Because it is more ancient. Some say their existence from the time of pope Sylvester (A.D. 320); others, from the time of the apostles.

2) Because it is so universal; there is scarcely any country into which this sect has not crept.

3) Because all other heretics excite horror by the greatness of their blasphemies against God; but these have a great appearance of piety, as they live justly before men. (Brown's Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge), Page 1148.

It has been said that they could travel all over the country and stay every night with some of their brethren. In times of persecution, they would often carry baskets of goods with them as peddlers; and after showing their goods, they would say: "We have something of more value than these goods that we will tell you, if you will promise NOT to tell the clergy."

After obtaining a promise of protection, they would tell the beautiful story of their doctrine. Often the people would "Profess" their faith, and under the cover of night, would be carried to a suitable place and baptized.

~~ Peter Waldo, a rich merchant of Lyons, France, who it is said derived his name from the Waldenses, after he "Professed" faith in Christ and "JOINED" these people (A.D. 1170), sold his merchandise and appropriate the proceeds to the furtherance of the gospel. He translated the Bible into the vernacular language of Gaul (French). He was hunted down, like a beast of prey, by the Catholic clergy of the established religion, but traveled to Belgium, Germany, Vandals, and Bohemia.

In J. Newton Brown's "Encyclopedia of religious Knowledge":

We are given the following account of the Origin of the name "Waldenses:" The Valleys are called 'Vaux', whence 'Vaudois' and Peter Waldo is said to have borne the name "Waldo", because he was a "Follower" of that sect. The Waldenses taught that the Roman Church DEPARTED from it former sanctity and purity in the time of Emperor Constantine the Great (A.D. 320). The Waldenses, therefore, "Refused" to submit to the usurped power of its pontiff.

In Germany---and later, in England---many of the Waldenses were called "Lollards," as some believe, after the celebrated Water Lollard, of Germany, who exercised his ministry in the early part of the 14th century.

Fuller, However, informed us that in the reign of Edward III, about (A.D. 1315), Walter Lollard, a German preacher or as Perrin in his "History of the Waldenses," calls him one of the "Barbs" (Pastor) of great renown among them, came into England, and was so eminent in England, and as in France they were called "Berengarians" from Berengarius, and "Petrobrusians" from Peter Bruis; and in Italy and Flanders "Arnoldists" from the famous Arnold of Brescia.

So did the Waldensian Christians, for many generations afterwards, bear the name of this worthy man, being called "Lollards."

Long before the Reformation, the Waldenses had planted their churches and disseminated their doctrine in almost all the provinces of Europe, particular in France, Germany, Bohemia, Moravia, Switzerland, Holland, and England.

In about (A.D. 1158), about 30 persons of Waldensian sect came over into England to disseminate their doctrine. We have mentioned of them in England in (A.D. 1182). Bishop Usher mentions the order of the Friar Minorities coming to England in (A.D. 1235) to "Surpress" the Waldensian heresy.

[nathanb]

1) CherieKropp wrote:
Thank you Chris (Waldensian) - that was very informative and enlightening and refreshing. I confess I have never studied the Waldensians. It was on my list fo things to do someday... And I have not read Nathan's many writings about them.

Nate has the same problem with Wm Irvine, the founder of his 2x2 faith-church-sect. He cannot accept that WmI started it, just like he cannot accept that Waldo founded the Waldensian movement. And he uses Waldo to attempt to prove his 2x2 church didn't start with WmI. But its not very convincing...

Oh what a tangled web we weave...etc.
Thanks again. Keep it coming!

~~~ N9: Cherie, I encourage you to study and spent a good amount of research and time on the Vaudois history of 2x2 Itinerant ministry, Peter Waldo, his belief, teachings and Itinerant ministry on your website this way in Eternity nobody can blame you for lead anyone astray by NOT telling the whole truth.

If they were to blame you in Eternity for deceiving them by NOT telling the whole truth then you could say it was NOT your fault because you had presented all the facts of 2x2 Itinerant ministry through out the ages as you knew it.

2) CherieKropp wrote:
Nate, I would encourage YOU to study and spend a good amount of research and time on the Wm Irvine history that goes back to 1897 and STOPS there. Start on this end.

There is no connection between Wm Irvine and the Waldenses or others who preached in pairs before him. The following people all say that WmI was the FOUNDER--PERIOD. His 2x2 ministry did not exist before he started it. www.tellingthetruth.info/founder_index/who_founder.php

~~~ Yes, I have been reading, studied YOUR 2x2 William Irvine founder history, many different articles on your website for 10 years now. You're leading people astrayed by sticking ONLY to William Irvine.

If there were NONE who practiced, followed Jesus and apostles 2x2 Itinerant ministry before William Irvine was born then I will say your theory might be credible and believable.

William Irvine was NOT the sole person who came up with 2x2 movement.... John Long had a great part in it from begining also... then how could William Irivne be the founder? a leader maybe.

The purpose of my website about Peter Waldo in the 11th century, and the Vaudois before him to show others that God has called men and women into His harvest field through out the ages... including William Irvine himself... So WI couldn't be the FIRST or the founder because others have beaten him to it for 1800 yrs.

WI and others could claim the title as the "Founder" all they want but historical documents have proved him WRONG! Just like different church historians have proved Peter Waldo was NOT the Vaudois founder or the First either.

What are you afraid of? Study, research the Vaudois belief, teachings, Itinerant ministry and post on your website and let the readers decide for themselves.

I believe you have too much information on WI already! It's kind a Boring to read now. Why don't you NOT try spend the rest of your time to do a good research on the Vaudois NEXT. I would love to read which source of information, history of the Vaudois you will promote.

[siwells]

I appreciate the history lessons very much! Whether the "Truth" started with WI or PW doesn't really matter does it? Didn't John the Baptist tell the Pharisees that God could raise up children from the stones at their feet one day? If that is the case, I firmly believe that God can raise up ministers, preachers, teachers, friends from stones also. And it seems there are many hearts like stone, so one should be careful because with God anything is possible! eh?

In the meantime, one of my college history books had a story about 2 itinerant ministers that were in the Raleigh area and had gone west into the wilderness now known as Tenn. apparently to follow up with someone that'd gone there to settle and they were never heard from again! They were described almost to the tea as one would expect the 2X2 ministers to be describe and their "testimonies" they left behind were the same! Now that would have been a couple of 100 years before George Walker ever came to America! I wish I still had that history book...I wasn't professing at the time, so let that "knowledge" go as there were many more bits and pieces I needed at the time in order to pass the course! ha ha

I suppose if one could be a fly on the wall in a hundred years from now, there'd be someone giving someone unknown to the 2X2'ls the credit for discovering it? With human nature that's possible also!
Cheers and blessings

[nathanb]

siwells said:

1) I appreciate the history lessons very much! Whether the "Truth" started with WI or PW doesn't really matter does it? Didn't John the Baptist tell the Pharisees that God could raise up children from the stones at their feet one day? If that is the case, I firmly believe that God can raise up ministers, preachers, teachers, friends from stones also. And it seems there are many hearts like stone, so one should be careful because with God anything is possible! eh?

~~~ I agree it doesn't matter who started the 2x2 fellowship and ministry.... The important question is... Is God dwelling in the lives of the friends and workers today? this is most important know whether 2x2s "HAVE" the Spirit of God in their own lives.

My answer is Yes... God's dwelling among the 2x2 friends and workers.

2) In the meantime, one of my college history books had a story about 2 itinerant ministers that were in the Raleigh area and had gone west into the wilderness now known as Tenn. apparently to follow up with someone that'd gone there to settle and they were never heard from again!

They were described almost to the tea as one would expect the 2X2 ministers to be describe and their "testimonies" they left behind were the same! Now that would have been a couple of 100 years before George Walker ever came to America! I wish I still had that history book...I wasn't professing at the time, so let that "knowledge" go as there were many more bits and pieces I needed at the time in order to pass the course! ha ha

~~~~ Wow! that is very interesting! I wish you could remember that history book.

[History Buff]

Nate! I'm sorry I sent that book along with others long outdated to the library to be sent to foreign countries(poor countries) so they could study American History! I think I'd recognize the book if I was ever to see one! I, too, wished I'd kept it now...I reprofessed about 15 years after the fact, so that wouldn't have been a priority with me! ha ha

[nathanb]

Sept 27, 2008 15:16:04 GMT -5 @History Buff said:

Nate! I'm sorry I sent that book along with others long outdated to the library to be sent to foreign countries(poor countries) so they could study American History! I think I'd recognize the book if I was ever to see one! I, too, wished I'd kept it now...I reprofessed about 15 years after the fact, so that wouldn't have been a priority with me! ha ha

~~~ Thanks, for letting me know about that history book. There were similiar groups as Albigenses, Cathars, and many others who follow the similiar 2x2 Itinerant ministry as the Vaudois. Remember there were 12 and 70 apostles whom Jesus sent forth in the Gospel of Matthew 10, Luke 10 and many (Matthias, Paul, Timothy, Silas, John Mark, Luke, Apollos, Titus, etc..).

They went everywhere preaching the Gospel throughout the known world by the end of the first century. The Vaudois group was Paul's own converts in 68 A.D. when he went to Rome as a prisoner for the sake of the Gospel.

[History Buff]

Yes, it has cheered my heart to learn of so many through the ages that have withstood the test of time in the simple faith made plain!
There had to be some mitigating factors in "moving" William Irvine, George Walker and others and perhaps just simply learning through Bible study of that "simple Faith made plain" is all it took and then we really don't know how much "testimonies" from or about those who withstood all through the years from the days of the apostles affected those few men, now do we?
The scientific views are that it's all myths handed down through the centuries! Well, if it is, it's taken a life of its' own for it hasn't changed one iota, has it? Jesus is still the same.
You know, I've had a lot of questions when I hear of those questioning the Truth per se, but you know all the answer I've come up with is "Jesus, only Jesus" and since that answer came up then everytime there is some controversial problem that creeps in among the friends, workers, ex-friends and ex-workers I remember and reread what Jesus had to say about a very similar thing in His day! That tells me that whatsoever He said and did in that given situation is the best thing for me to believe and do! That brings a whole lot of peace into my heart.
May God grant His rich blessings to you!

[pianoman]

History and knowledge are wonderful things, but having the spirit of God dwelling in our hearts is the most important thing for us.
We can listen to all the ranting, and raving about where things got started, but the important thing is what we know came from God.
I don't need a history lesson, as I have my bible. I know that Jesus is the only way, and I also know that our pettiness in judging others as being "true Christians", will come back to bite us if we are not careful. Paul speaks on the wisdom of man being foolishness to God, in 1st Corinthians.

May we be wise in our search for truth.................................Dale

[quest]

Feb 7, 2009 12:53:31 GMT -5 pianoman said:

History and knowledge are wonderful things, listen to all the ranting, and raving about where things got started, but the important thing is what we know came from God.
I don't need a history lesson, as I have my bible. I know that Jesus is the only way, and I also know that our pettiness in judging others as being "true Christians", will come back to bite us if we are not careful.

May we be wise in our search for truth.................................Dale

Simple truth: the leader of a movement, is not the founder of the movement, unless our brains are located in our bowels. ;D

[the truth is a movement]

the truth is NOT a religion, manmade religions are filled with confusion!

Pure religion, is to visit the widows and father-less IN their affliction, and keep yourself unspotted from the defilement of te world.
The world has twisted the beautiful concept that is contained in the ''origional/biblical DEFINITION'' that is outlined for the word religion, and has defiled even the meaning of the word to and is now used as meaning any decrepid belief system that one embrased is improperly described and demeaning the wholesome concept that the origional word 'religion' was to embrase,
that is a lot to do with the culture of how English allows words to become a perverted meaning, due to the continued misuse of the word by the unlearned misuse (corruption) of the word(s).


The concept of having a ''movement '' to point us to God and to Jesus and his truth , is not a ''foundable'' original concept, as it occurs time and time and time again, in the bible, and in our world,

the thing we need to seek out is to make sure that the truth is the same truth ,movement that has existed back to Mt Sinai, and Gods first attempt to cause a people to seek him through Gods use of prophets , etc.

This has not changed, God still uses prophets, to prophesy of the coming kingdom , and the kingdom that we can have a taste of even while still on this earth.


It is wrong, for any group to assign a founder to a movement that points people to seek after God,

the truth is the only movement, that recognizes the error in crediting a movement of God, to an individual,

all denominational ''religions'' of ''christianity'' continue to do this vain crediting, leaving God out of the picture , and their 'religion' is then 'of men' because they credit it to men as their founders.

If someone says the truth movement should be credited to a man, who is that man, pray tell?? The movements have existed for thousands of years, yet the truth refuses to buckle, yet for this virtue they are dispised and rejected...... kinda sad huh ?

[pianoman]

Many things are wrong with doctrine, and groups, in fact there is no perfect group.

That is the human factor. We are not perfect. We can not have a perfect way here. Paul's writings prove that.

We can only strive for perfection, but that must be within the heart and in the spirit.

It is the people sitting in different "groups", that are being judged when we make a blanket statement that this or that "group" is wrong.

We need to realize that only in each heart, is truth known and followed. We can not judge another human's spiritual progress.

Let us be thankful that we don't have that job, and only have ourselves to tend to........Dale

[quest]

You know Dale, I would like to give you the South Pole!

The problem is, I do not own it....

We can only share(give) with others the things that we possess.

I could give you the shirt off my back, because that is something that I do own.

when I was musing a few days ago, this became very real ,
that it takes love to create love, it takes understanding to create understanding,

etc..
thus, we learn by having contact with what we want to learn.

Even if we want to criticize others, where should I start?
Some people are good at that, too.

So , to have an edifyng fellowship, we have to define and seek after people that do possess the fruits of the spirit that we are looking for.

If someone does not demonstrate what these are, how can we be sure he possesses them, and how do we know we have any fruit, if we critic others, yet, as we live before others, they might feel 'judged' even when we are not judging them...

If there is light in our life, this light helps all to discern right from wrong, if we hide our light, then others can dwell in darkness, if that is what they want to, as the light is to help us see our flaws.

Do we need this light? yes, but the cost is that you will be seen as a person of light, and the darkness of the world will feel you are judging them....

I know this doesn't make much sense, but it is my best effort to share what I have learned in my 50 plus years of living.