Post by nathanb on Aug 18, 2008 10:01:34 GMT -5
WHY
« Thread Started on Aug 16, 2008, 11:36 »
~~~ An ex-2x2 workertitus wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Every chance they have, 2&2 workers as well as their supporters here promote the essentiality of one going with a companion in the "true ministry" (preachership.) The obvious question then is "WHY with all their focus on that which was important to the doctrine and beliefs of those professing Christ in the NT, and the letters Paul wrote to 'workers' Titus and Timothy, was there no reference to such a doctrine (teaching) of always going about with a companion in preaching the New Testament 'message' if it were so important?"
Especially with all the other advice given by Paul to Titus and Timothy, is it not strange that he neglected to comment on this requirement, or even inquire of their "companion" in his letters to them? Nathan, et al, never pass up the chance to focus upon such a teaching requirement, yet it was not even close to such a focus in the records of the New Testament. For every time a reference is given of two traveling and teaching together there are even more of different numbers during the New Testament, yet this fact is totally overlooked by those preaching such a doctrine as a requirement for today.
If it had not been for the Faith Mission "workers" and "companions" would the requirement for such in 2&2ism today have ever gained momentum? Not likely.
miss
New Member
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're right! But it wasn't just the Faith Mission Church that sent "laborers into the harvest field" out with "companions". In the late 1800's and early 1900's there was a sort of revival and tramp preachers were common and they would often go out with another person, and not because they believed that ministry HAD to be that way.
The doctrine of the 2x2 rests on the idea of secret revelation and so they will imply things without actually coming right out and saying it because they believe that is what Jesus did. Only the certain privileged will have the secret revelation through the Holy Spirit. And the secret revelation is that truly professing people are the only saved people, women have to have long hair (and it is only practical to wear it up), women have to wear modest dresses (and they can't be too long or you will have to hem them up), God hates church buildings and wants his people to meet in homes (which are also built with hands), and, among other things, that the preachers have to go in two's like Jesus sent the disciples.
I, too, know that Jesus said that what he taught in private matched what he taught in public, and that if the dress, hair, meeting in the home, and ministry in 2's were such a MUST, then Jesus would have made it very plain and very known that it is a requirement. Look at how much he talked about love, and being the least in the Kingdom, having faith and not fearing, having the inside match the outside, releasing burdens instead of putting on burdens "grievous to be born"!
When you begin reading the Bible without the 2x2 influence there is so much that doesn't add up like the Bible's definition of "overseer". They can squawk about the terms "trinity" and "rapture" not being found in the Bible, but "professing" and "convention" are certainly not found in the Bible either! They deceive themselves into thinking they are the only ones perfectly matching the New Testament church, but just yesterday I was reading the terms "deacon" and "bishop" in the Bible, terms they don't have!
~~~ exworkertitus wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seems like certain ones make no answer to raised points or questions when they are extremely germane, Miss. The silence speaks loudly, doesn't it? However, give them long enough and they will most likely find a way to put their spin on the topic by not answering, but raising some question(s) of their own.
~~~ safety in numbers wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Valdois/waldensians travelled in groups because it was dangerous most of the time to travel alone--not because of some mystical fascination with being in pairs. In fact--there was no specified size of the groups--it was just safer to travel in numbers.
~~~ miss
New Member
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They obviously have nothing to say. I just don't see how they can keep defending and making up explanations. Their beliefs do not fit the Bible, but they will do anything to keep trying to stuff it in there. Kind of like the ugly stepsisters trying to fit into the glass slipper. But I was desperate to do the very same thing when I was still in it. I really listened to the workers and my family when I was little so I became very good at defending it and explaining away all the mismatches.
I remember my friend that was coming to meetings asking me over and over, "Are you sure they aren't going to try to make me conform to how they dress and everything? Because I really don't think I can conform to that." And I kept telling her just to obey God, thinking in my mind that God would lead her to dress and look like the 2x2, and give her the power to do it. I would not come straight out and tell her that she would be expected to dress and look like them, which is what she was asking about!
She never did profess, but she still worries sometimes that maybe her salvation does depend on conforming to the outward appearance of the 2x2. Really sad!
~~~~ judy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...something else missed is that some of the disciples were married. Which verses are used to support the requirement that workers remain unmarried if they want to stay in the work?
~~~ miss
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...something else missed is that some of the disciples were married. Which verses are used to support the requirement that workers remain unmarried if they want to stay in the work?
Paul actually makes it sound in 1 Cor. 9:5-6 like the majority of the apostles did have wives!
"Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry,and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth." 1 Tim. 4:1-3
~~~ judy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew 8:14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever. KJV
Matthew 8:14 When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever. NIV
~~~Nathan9
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aug 16, 2008, 11:36, exworkertitus wrote:
Every chance they have, 2&2 workers as well as their supporters here promote the essentiality of one going with a companion in the "true ministry" (preachership.) The obvious question then is "WHY with all their focus on that which was important to the doctrine and beliefs of those professing Christ in the NT, and the letters Paul wrote to 'workers' Titus and Timothy, was there no reference to such a doctrine (teaching) of always going about with a companion in preaching the New Testament 'message' if it were so important?"
Especially with all the other advice given by Paul to Titus and Timothy, is it not strange that he neglected to comment on this requirement, or even inquire of their "companion" in his letters to them? Nathan, et al, never pass up the chance to focus upon such a teaching requirement, yet it was not even close to such a focus in the records of the New Testament. For every time a reference is given of two traveling and teaching together there are even more of different numbers during the New Testament, yet this fact is totally overlooked by those preaching such a doctrine as a requirement for today.
If it had not been for the Faith Mission "workers" and "companions" would the requirement for such in 2&2ism today have ever gained momentum? Not likely.
~~~ N9: To ex-workertitus:
I have posted this before but you might find it helpful to your question WHY?. I believe Faith Mission founder John Govan in 1886, William Irivine, and other groups through out the ages have copied many of their 2x2 Itinerant workers, terminologies, ideas from the Vaudois patterns back to the apostles and Jesus Christ, himself as the cornerstone.
Did you know the Catholic Francisians Fiars/monks got that order started from the poor Vaudois apostles example in the 11th century.
Preaching and the 2x2 Itinerant ministry of the Brethren:
The brethen themselves were great preachers, for there had always been among them missionary preachers, called "apostles," simply meaning thereby, "Person Sent." These apostles "Always" went out 2 and 2, generally an older and a younger man.
(I Timothy 2:1,2) Paul (a Senior apostle)wrote to Timothy (a Junior apostle): And the things that thou has heard of me among many witnesses, the same entrusted thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
The younger ones (preachers) were thus imitated into the dedicated duties of evangelization, each of them under experience guidance of a man of years who, according to the disciples of the church was his superior, and whom he bound to everything as a matter of duty and not merely out of deference.
The older apostle his part, thus made his preparation on by training for the church "Successors" worthy of it and of himself. His task being accomplished, he could die in peace, with consolatory assurance of having committed the "Sacred Trust" of the gospel into "Prudence and Zealous" hands. Their maintenance of the absolute authority of the Word of God, and of the doctrine of Salvation through Jesus Christ.
The Vaudois or Waldenses not schematics but "Continue" inheritors of the church founded by the apostles. Therefore When they reached the house of the a "brother" they were lodged and fed gladly, for all the brethen were taught that God was pleased if His messengers were lovingly welcome in His name.
The Vaudois apostles had no property, goods, homes, or family; if they had these they left them. They have "NO" fixed habitation. They go about "Two by Two" and owning nothing. Their life was one of self-denial, hardship and danger. They traveled in utmost simplicity, without money, without second suit, their needs being supplied by the "Believers" among them whom they ministered the word. Their visits were highly esteemed, and they were treated with every token of respect and affection. The apostles choose poverty.
In Piedmont they contacted assemblies and the itinerant preachers who claimed a more ancient origin. At Pra del Torno, they had "Annual Conventions," where young men came to study the Scriptures in preparation to joining older experienced itinerants on preaching missions. These pairs traveled a vast region of the central Europe preaching the gospel.
If they had wives before, they give them up when they are received into the ministry. They say they are successors of the apostles. They travel throughout the country, visiting and confirming their disciples. Their disciples supply them with their necessities. Wherever the apostles go, the believers spread the news of their arrival, and many come to the "House" where they are admitted to see and hear them.
The Friends and the Apostles:
Those whom they called "Apostles" played an important part in their testimony. While the church elders and believers remained in their homes, the apostles traveled continually, visiting the churches. A distinction was made between those who called to be "Apostles" and the "Friends" the followers of Christ, based on the fact that in the Gospel "some" were called to sell ALL that they had and follow Christ as the gospel preachers, while others of His disciples were equally called to serve Him in the surroundings in which He found them.
Some among the brethen devoted themselves entirely to "traveling and ministering" the Word, and were called the "Perfect or Apostles" and in accordance with the Lord Jesus' words in (Matthew 19:21) "If thou will be Perfect go and Sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shall have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." The Perfect or Apostles possessed nothing, had no home, and literally acted upon this command.
It was recognized that "ALL" are "NOT" called to such a path, and that Majority of believers or followers, while acknowledging that they, and ALL belong to Christ, should serve Him while remaining in their families, and continuing in their usual occupations.
Women Preachers/Apostles:
The Vaudois/Waldenses still went further in shocking old-time custom, and claim the right to preach for "Women" as well as men, and when Paul's silence upon the women were quoted, they replied it was with them more of a question of teaching than of formal preaching and quoted back (Titus 2:3) "the aged women should be teachers of good things." Women preachers were not "Uncommon" and they played a considerable role in Piedmont as late as the 14th century.
Married Apostles:
The Vaudois called themselves only the name of Christians. They were divided into "TWO" classes, the "Perfect or apostles" and the "Friends or believers". Among the apostles, bound by vow of poverty, wandered about from place to place preaching. Such an itinerant life was ill-suited for married state, and to the profession of poverty they added the vow of chastity.
Very "FEW" of them were married in the ministry, and their perpetual missions, their poverty, their missionary tours, their lives always spent amid warfare and "dangers," make it easy to understand the reason of their celibacy!.
The Vaudois apostles were "NOT" allowed to perform manual labor, but do depend their substances on the members of the sect known as "Friends." The Friends continue to live the world, married, own property and engaged in secular pursuits. Their generosity and alms were to provide for the materials needs of the apostles or perfect.
Many of these preachers were students of medicine, and, therefore, their journies from land to land were that we should call a medicine mission. But, their object was the souls. And, faithfully, bravely, and diligently they give themselves up to this great blessed work.
These apostles "never" ask anything; indeed, many undertook serious medical studies that they might be able to care for the bodies of those they met with. The name "FRIENDS of God" was often given to them. Great care was used in commending men to such service, since it was felt that "ONE" devoted man was worth more than a 100 whose call to this ministry was less evident.
They valued education, as well as spirituality; many who ministered the Word among them had taken a degree at one of the universities. Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) bored a double testimony to them when he said that among the Vauois or Waldenses educated laymen undertook the functions of preachers, and again, that the would ONLY listened to a man who had God in him.
« Thread Started on Aug 16, 2008, 11:36 »
~~~ An ex-2x2 workertitus wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Every chance they have, 2&2 workers as well as their supporters here promote the essentiality of one going with a companion in the "true ministry" (preachership.) The obvious question then is "WHY with all their focus on that which was important to the doctrine and beliefs of those professing Christ in the NT, and the letters Paul wrote to 'workers' Titus and Timothy, was there no reference to such a doctrine (teaching) of always going about with a companion in preaching the New Testament 'message' if it were so important?"
Especially with all the other advice given by Paul to Titus and Timothy, is it not strange that he neglected to comment on this requirement, or even inquire of their "companion" in his letters to them? Nathan, et al, never pass up the chance to focus upon such a teaching requirement, yet it was not even close to such a focus in the records of the New Testament. For every time a reference is given of two traveling and teaching together there are even more of different numbers during the New Testament, yet this fact is totally overlooked by those preaching such a doctrine as a requirement for today.
If it had not been for the Faith Mission "workers" and "companions" would the requirement for such in 2&2ism today have ever gained momentum? Not likely.
miss
New Member
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're right! But it wasn't just the Faith Mission Church that sent "laborers into the harvest field" out with "companions". In the late 1800's and early 1900's there was a sort of revival and tramp preachers were common and they would often go out with another person, and not because they believed that ministry HAD to be that way.
The doctrine of the 2x2 rests on the idea of secret revelation and so they will imply things without actually coming right out and saying it because they believe that is what Jesus did. Only the certain privileged will have the secret revelation through the Holy Spirit. And the secret revelation is that truly professing people are the only saved people, women have to have long hair (and it is only practical to wear it up), women have to wear modest dresses (and they can't be too long or you will have to hem them up), God hates church buildings and wants his people to meet in homes (which are also built with hands), and, among other things, that the preachers have to go in two's like Jesus sent the disciples.
I, too, know that Jesus said that what he taught in private matched what he taught in public, and that if the dress, hair, meeting in the home, and ministry in 2's were such a MUST, then Jesus would have made it very plain and very known that it is a requirement. Look at how much he talked about love, and being the least in the Kingdom, having faith and not fearing, having the inside match the outside, releasing burdens instead of putting on burdens "grievous to be born"!
When you begin reading the Bible without the 2x2 influence there is so much that doesn't add up like the Bible's definition of "overseer". They can squawk about the terms "trinity" and "rapture" not being found in the Bible, but "professing" and "convention" are certainly not found in the Bible either! They deceive themselves into thinking they are the only ones perfectly matching the New Testament church, but just yesterday I was reading the terms "deacon" and "bishop" in the Bible, terms they don't have!
~~~ exworkertitus wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Seems like certain ones make no answer to raised points or questions when they are extremely germane, Miss. The silence speaks loudly, doesn't it? However, give them long enough and they will most likely find a way to put their spin on the topic by not answering, but raising some question(s) of their own.
~~~ safety in numbers wrote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Valdois/waldensians travelled in groups because it was dangerous most of the time to travel alone--not because of some mystical fascination with being in pairs. In fact--there was no specified size of the groups--it was just safer to travel in numbers.
~~~ miss
New Member
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They obviously have nothing to say. I just don't see how they can keep defending and making up explanations. Their beliefs do not fit the Bible, but they will do anything to keep trying to stuff it in there. Kind of like the ugly stepsisters trying to fit into the glass slipper. But I was desperate to do the very same thing when I was still in it. I really listened to the workers and my family when I was little so I became very good at defending it and explaining away all the mismatches.
I remember my friend that was coming to meetings asking me over and over, "Are you sure they aren't going to try to make me conform to how they dress and everything? Because I really don't think I can conform to that." And I kept telling her just to obey God, thinking in my mind that God would lead her to dress and look like the 2x2, and give her the power to do it. I would not come straight out and tell her that she would be expected to dress and look like them, which is what she was asking about!
She never did profess, but she still worries sometimes that maybe her salvation does depend on conforming to the outward appearance of the 2x2. Really sad!
~~~~ judy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...something else missed is that some of the disciples were married. Which verses are used to support the requirement that workers remain unmarried if they want to stay in the work?
~~~ miss
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...something else missed is that some of the disciples were married. Which verses are used to support the requirement that workers remain unmarried if they want to stay in the work?
Paul actually makes it sound in 1 Cor. 9:5-6 like the majority of the apostles did have wives!
"Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry,and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth." 1 Tim. 4:1-3
~~~ judy
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew 8:14 And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever. KJV
Matthew 8:14 When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever. NIV
~~~Nathan9
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aug 16, 2008, 11:36, exworkertitus wrote:
Every chance they have, 2&2 workers as well as their supporters here promote the essentiality of one going with a companion in the "true ministry" (preachership.) The obvious question then is "WHY with all their focus on that which was important to the doctrine and beliefs of those professing Christ in the NT, and the letters Paul wrote to 'workers' Titus and Timothy, was there no reference to such a doctrine (teaching) of always going about with a companion in preaching the New Testament 'message' if it were so important?"
Especially with all the other advice given by Paul to Titus and Timothy, is it not strange that he neglected to comment on this requirement, or even inquire of their "companion" in his letters to them? Nathan, et al, never pass up the chance to focus upon such a teaching requirement, yet it was not even close to such a focus in the records of the New Testament. For every time a reference is given of two traveling and teaching together there are even more of different numbers during the New Testament, yet this fact is totally overlooked by those preaching such a doctrine as a requirement for today.
If it had not been for the Faith Mission "workers" and "companions" would the requirement for such in 2&2ism today have ever gained momentum? Not likely.
~~~ N9: To ex-workertitus:
I have posted this before but you might find it helpful to your question WHY?. I believe Faith Mission founder John Govan in 1886, William Irivine, and other groups through out the ages have copied many of their 2x2 Itinerant workers, terminologies, ideas from the Vaudois patterns back to the apostles and Jesus Christ, himself as the cornerstone.
Did you know the Catholic Francisians Fiars/monks got that order started from the poor Vaudois apostles example in the 11th century.
Preaching and the 2x2 Itinerant ministry of the Brethren:
The brethen themselves were great preachers, for there had always been among them missionary preachers, called "apostles," simply meaning thereby, "Person Sent." These apostles "Always" went out 2 and 2, generally an older and a younger man.
(I Timothy 2:1,2) Paul (a Senior apostle)wrote to Timothy (a Junior apostle): And the things that thou has heard of me among many witnesses, the same entrusted thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
The younger ones (preachers) were thus imitated into the dedicated duties of evangelization, each of them under experience guidance of a man of years who, according to the disciples of the church was his superior, and whom he bound to everything as a matter of duty and not merely out of deference.
The older apostle his part, thus made his preparation on by training for the church "Successors" worthy of it and of himself. His task being accomplished, he could die in peace, with consolatory assurance of having committed the "Sacred Trust" of the gospel into "Prudence and Zealous" hands. Their maintenance of the absolute authority of the Word of God, and of the doctrine of Salvation through Jesus Christ.
The Vaudois or Waldenses not schematics but "Continue" inheritors of the church founded by the apostles. Therefore When they reached the house of the a "brother" they were lodged and fed gladly, for all the brethen were taught that God was pleased if His messengers were lovingly welcome in His name.
The Vaudois apostles had no property, goods, homes, or family; if they had these they left them. They have "NO" fixed habitation. They go about "Two by Two" and owning nothing. Their life was one of self-denial, hardship and danger. They traveled in utmost simplicity, without money, without second suit, their needs being supplied by the "Believers" among them whom they ministered the word. Their visits were highly esteemed, and they were treated with every token of respect and affection. The apostles choose poverty.
In Piedmont they contacted assemblies and the itinerant preachers who claimed a more ancient origin. At Pra del Torno, they had "Annual Conventions," where young men came to study the Scriptures in preparation to joining older experienced itinerants on preaching missions. These pairs traveled a vast region of the central Europe preaching the gospel.
If they had wives before, they give them up when they are received into the ministry. They say they are successors of the apostles. They travel throughout the country, visiting and confirming their disciples. Their disciples supply them with their necessities. Wherever the apostles go, the believers spread the news of their arrival, and many come to the "House" where they are admitted to see and hear them.
The Friends and the Apostles:
Those whom they called "Apostles" played an important part in their testimony. While the church elders and believers remained in their homes, the apostles traveled continually, visiting the churches. A distinction was made between those who called to be "Apostles" and the "Friends" the followers of Christ, based on the fact that in the Gospel "some" were called to sell ALL that they had and follow Christ as the gospel preachers, while others of His disciples were equally called to serve Him in the surroundings in which He found them.
Some among the brethen devoted themselves entirely to "traveling and ministering" the Word, and were called the "Perfect or Apostles" and in accordance with the Lord Jesus' words in (Matthew 19:21) "If thou will be Perfect go and Sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shall have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." The Perfect or Apostles possessed nothing, had no home, and literally acted upon this command.
It was recognized that "ALL" are "NOT" called to such a path, and that Majority of believers or followers, while acknowledging that they, and ALL belong to Christ, should serve Him while remaining in their families, and continuing in their usual occupations.
Women Preachers/Apostles:
The Vaudois/Waldenses still went further in shocking old-time custom, and claim the right to preach for "Women" as well as men, and when Paul's silence upon the women were quoted, they replied it was with them more of a question of teaching than of formal preaching and quoted back (Titus 2:3) "the aged women should be teachers of good things." Women preachers were not "Uncommon" and they played a considerable role in Piedmont as late as the 14th century.
Married Apostles:
The Vaudois called themselves only the name of Christians. They were divided into "TWO" classes, the "Perfect or apostles" and the "Friends or believers". Among the apostles, bound by vow of poverty, wandered about from place to place preaching. Such an itinerant life was ill-suited for married state, and to the profession of poverty they added the vow of chastity.
Very "FEW" of them were married in the ministry, and their perpetual missions, their poverty, their missionary tours, their lives always spent amid warfare and "dangers," make it easy to understand the reason of their celibacy!.
The Vaudois apostles were "NOT" allowed to perform manual labor, but do depend their substances on the members of the sect known as "Friends." The Friends continue to live the world, married, own property and engaged in secular pursuits. Their generosity and alms were to provide for the materials needs of the apostles or perfect.
Many of these preachers were students of medicine, and, therefore, their journies from land to land were that we should call a medicine mission. But, their object was the souls. And, faithfully, bravely, and diligently they give themselves up to this great blessed work.
These apostles "never" ask anything; indeed, many undertook serious medical studies that they might be able to care for the bodies of those they met with. The name "FRIENDS of God" was often given to them. Great care was used in commending men to such service, since it was felt that "ONE" devoted man was worth more than a 100 whose call to this ministry was less evident.
They valued education, as well as spirituality; many who ministered the Word among them had taken a degree at one of the universities. Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) bored a double testimony to them when he said that among the Vauois or Waldenses educated laymen undertook the functions of preachers, and again, that the would ONLY listened to a man who had God in him.
