A Waldensian on Truth message board

[nathanb]

1) A man (Chris) claimed as a Waldensian wrote:

A little bit about me---I was born in what you call a 2x2 home, but I did not profess. I knew a little bit about the history growing up, as I would spend summers visiting my grannies in Oregon (one in Salem, the other in Eugene). Both my grannies had professed through Cooney, back in the days when Irvine was still part of the fellowship. My grams in Eugene was extremely close to me--out of all her 9 grandchildren I was her favorite. She confided in me quite a bit about what she knew about the history--she did not want to see me get entrapped in this way as she had been. She told me that “a lot of people call us Cooneyites” and also about how the head worker had bullied her, telling her to “burn” old letters etc that referenced the early leaders and to keep quiet about the history. Years afterwards she still wept to me about it--she was quite a packrat and hated giving up her memories.

To the horror of my parents, I was the recipient of a full scholarship to a Catholic University--Santa Clara and once I left home I never attended a meeting again, so it has been many years. At Santa Clara, I met my wife to be--she has a Waldensian background. There was an entire community of Waldensian students at college with us. I have found that many Waldensians prefer a Catholic education for their children as it is closest to their own beliefs. I sent my own children to Catholic prep schools and then Catholic colleges. Two of them went to my old Alma Mater, Santa Clara!

Nicole (or Nick) as I call her came from a very old Waldensian family, and I was intrigued by them (and her)! Her family is extremely cosmopolitan, and she was raised in France. One thing that few outsiders realize about the Waldensians is that the history of the church is intertwined with the history of winemaking. If you look at maps of Europe, you will find that the church thrived in the areas known for their exceptional viticulture and enology. Nick’s family has been winemakers throughout many centuries and they now own many vineyards. They also have a castle that dates back to the early middle ages. Owning a family castle may sound grand--but it is not a place that many people would want to live. It is extremely old--mostly in rubble--few modern conveniences and unlivable except for one section. However, every summer the family spends some time there and I have to say that the one great benefit of the place is that it is full of family (and thus Waldensian) history.

My favorite part is the chapel--which is actually still quite beautiful due to a great-great-great-great-great grandmother of Nicole’s who funded a restoration in the 1700‘s. The chapel has served the local Waldensian community since the 1500’s and it is adjacent to a family/Waldenisan community cemetery that dates even further back than the chapel -- some of the graves date back to the 1300‘s! This cemetery has many graves that are marked “moine” that is the French word for “monk”. In the early days of the church, those who devoted their lives to church service were called monks. The gravestones are decorated with Waldensian symbols. In the chapel, we have artwork, including a magnificent stained glass that is over 500 years old which depicts not only Waldensian church history, but also the stories of several family members who were prominent in the church. We also have several statues, my favorite is of the Virgin Mary--when my wife and I were married part of the Waldensian ritual was to place flowers in front of this statue--asking the Virgin to bless our marriage. Our own children have followed this beautiful old Waldensian tradition at their own marriage ceremonies.

We also have a little museum. Most Waldensian churches--including my local one that I have provided a link to have a museum (and a winery--our local churches winery is a huge tourist attraction--visit us!), because we cherish and preserve our history. I admit that this was difficult in the times when there were not many written materials, but we still have a wealth of historical riches. Confirmation gowns, pendants and pins, family portraits--containing symbols that are rich in hidden meaning!

Part II

And from the 1600’s on we have written history. We have family bibles, diaries, written accounts. I love flipping through those old family bibles (even though I cannot understand them--the very old bibles are the Vulgate--the bible that we use now is the “Catholic Living Bible“ because it reads like a novel--very easy!) and looking at the names of those who have gone before! Some of the important family stories have been passed on--first through the oral tradition for many years--then written out centuries later.

According to family history, three members of Nick’s family were persecuted by the Catholic church. Interestingly enough, family tradition holds that these people were persecuted because wealthy bishops wanted their vineyards, religious differences were used merely as a flimsy excuse to provide cover for a bold land-grab. All three eventually went back to the Catholic church in order to retain their family lands.

What I love best about the church are the wonderful little traditions and French sayings that have become part of our life through the centuries. We just finished having a family reunion--as the Waldensians like to say, we bathed ourselves in family (nous avons pris un bain de famille). This is similar to how the Jewish people have Hebrew sayings, and the Catholics have Latin--French is the language of our church and we have many little everyday French sayings that have come down to us due to that association.

Above, someone said that the Waldensians have conventions. Well, the closest thing in my experience is that we have a Waldensian Festival every August, but this festival is a very new development, it only dates back to 1976. It is fantastic--we have lots of good wine, we show off our crafts, have food vendors, entertainers and games. It is very similar to a fair. I don’t see any similarities to convention, but you are welcome to come and see for yourself! It is certainly a lot of fun--and our family sells quite a bit of wine each year there….

I had heard of the 2x2 trying to make a connection between themselves and our church many years ago--my father pulled out a paper written by that Cornelius guy about a dozen years ago (on fete le Thanksgiving!). We all thought it was quite silly (even my 2x2Cooneyite parents) and took little stock in it.

More recently my wife saw Nathan’s ramblings on the web--and came to me saying--someone is interested in the Church! She was very excited--saying that she didn’t know people were interested in the church anymore--so she begged me to come here and tell about our church. Well--after checking it out--most here are NOT interested in our church. They are interested in proving that there is one “true” church and that the Waldensians were it for a brief time--but that now it is the 2x2/cooneyites. Good luck with that!

Most Christians understand that the true church is the believers. There have always been believers throughout history. Doesn’t matter what their church affiliation was. In 1600, there were true believers in the my group, there were also Catholics who were true believers. And there were people in both churches who were NOT true believers. There was not, never has been, and never will be a true church (where people are saved just by membership alone) and a false church (where people are doomed regardless of their relationship with God). It is a very very dangerous idea to believe that you need to find this true church to be saved. I am not interested in this train of thought.

If anyone is interested in Waldensians--you are welcome to come to our forums--both at my church and others. I have little interest in the 2x2/Cooneyites. They have been in my rear view mirror for many years--and that is where I intend to keep them. I wrote out my history in response to Cherie--who has done such a great research job--she deserves to have this history if she wants it. If anyone wants to use it, they are welcome to it.

Chris

[nathanb]

Yesterday at 7:46, Cherie Kropp wrote:

To Waldensian I Could you please supply the link to your church forum again on this thread. I waded through 5 pages and decided to just ask!

Thanks so much for your comments and the brief story of your life. Please keep them coming!

Also, please do not conclude that the majority of people on this board want to believe that their group succeeded from the Waldenses (or however you want to say it--you inidcated a perfect understanding of Nathan's beliefs)--

The only one I know who holds this belief on this board (and on his own website) is Nathan who aggressively contends for it every chance he gets, and most of us find it very tiresome when he comes on with his ranting about it--and he uses Broadbents Pilgrim church as his Bible. That's why many of us were so pleased and happy for you to show up and tell him what really is the truth about the Waldenses.

Most of us hope that Nathan will prove that he values truth above his beliefs and will honorably concede his points re Waldenses turned out not to be factual.



~~ What wrote:
Interesting background to this and I think your (Chris) remarks are accurate insofar as the fellowship. But I'm not sure our Waldensian friend has that much historical insight either.

I think the one to look to would be Jaenen who doesn't really have an axe to grind as far as the Waldensians are concerned, his earlier writings notwithstanding.

What I see in these various Waldensian posts is a fairly dismissive attitude to any similarities between the two groups.
Rather than exploring or admitting what the touch points between 1200 and 1890 might be, no matter how specious.
Almost like someone is afraid of something.

It's an open question to me. No-one other than Nathan seems in command of very much data on the subject.

[nathanb]

1) Waldensian wrote: And from the 1600’s on we have written history. If anyone is interested in Waldensians--you are welcome to come to our forums--both at my church and others. I have little interest in the 2x2/Cooneyites.

Chris

~~ Someone wrote: who gave the Waldensians that name ?
do you disagree with the account written by Broadbent in Pilgrims churches?


~~~ Nathan9: This Waldensian (Chris) doesn't know much of his church history. He claimed the Waldensian church founded by Peter Waldo in 11th century.

I wish he would stick with one handle instead multi- names/handles. I don't know there is one Waldensian on here or 5 of them with so many handles. Please, Pick one handle so there's less confusion.

I wonder why Chris didn't reply my posts to Waldensian on TMB history, teachings, belief, and Peter Waldo, the Frenchman 1160 A.D. is NOT the founder of Vaudois/Waldensians.

[nathanb]

Here is more interesting information about the Vaudois from another source.

A History of the Christian Church by William Jones first edition 1812 Chapter 5--section 3.

A view of doctrinal sentiments and religious practices of the Waldenses, collected from their own writings. Their historian, John Paul Perrin, in his "Histoitre des Vaudois," published at Geneva in 1619, has furnished us with two of their "Confessions of Faith," of which the following are faithful translations. Sir Samuel Morland has fixed the date of the first of them in the Year 1120. [Morland's History of the Churches of Peidmont, Page. 30]

~~~ The Confession of Faith of the Waldenses (A.D.1120).

Peter Waldo, a Frenchman could NOT be the founder of the Waldenses because he didn't start PREACHING! until 1170 A.D. The Waldenses Confession of Faith existed 50 yrs before he became an Itinerant preacher with companions! Let the readers decide.

1. We believe and firmly maintain all that is contained in the twelve articles of the symbol, commonly called the Apostles' Creed, and we regard as heretical whatever is inconsistent with the said twelve articles.

2. We believe that there is One God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

3. We acknowledge for sacred canonical scriptures the books of the Holy Bible.

4. The books above mentioned teach us---that that there is ONE GOD, almighty, unbounded in the wisdom, in infinite in goodness, and who, in his goodness, has made all things. For he created Adam after his own image and likeness. But through the enmity of the devil, and his own disobedience, Adam fell, sin entered into the world, and we became transgressors in and by Adam.


5. That Christ had been promised to the fathers who received the law, to the end that, knowing theirs sin by the law, and their unrighteousness and insufficiency, they might desire the coming of Christ to make satisfaction for their sins, and to accomplished the law by himself.

6. That at the time appointed of the Father, Christ was born a time when iniquity everywhere abounded, to make it manifest that it was not for the sake of any good in ourselves, for all were sinners, but that He, who is true, might display his grace and mercy toward us.

7. That Christ is our life, and truth, and peace, and righteousness---our shepherd and advocate, our sacrifice and priest, who died for the salvation of all who should believe, and rose again for justification.

8. And we also firmly believe, that there in NO other mediator, or advocate with God the Father, but Jesus Christ. And as to the Virgin Mary, she was holy, humble, and full of grace; and this we also believe concerning all others Saints, namely, that they are waiting in heaven for the resurrection of their bodies at the Day of Judgment.

9. We also believe, that after this life, there are but two places---One for those who are Saved, and other for the no noed, which [two] we call paradise and hell, wholly denying Purgatory of Antichrist, invented in opposition to the truth.

10. Moreover, we have ever regarded all the inventions of men (in the affairs of religion) as an unspeakable abomination before God; such as the festivals days, and vigils of Saints, and what is called holy-water, the abstaining from flesh on certain days, and such like things, but above all, the Masses.

11. We hold in abhorrence all human inventions, as proceeding from Antichrist, which produce distress [alluding probably to the voluntary penances and mortification imposed by the Catholics on themselves] and are prejudicial to the liberty of the mind.

12. We consider the Sacraments as signs of holy things, or as the visible emblems of invisible blessings. We regard it as proper and even necessary that believers use these symbols or visible forms when it can be done. Notwithstanding which, we maintain that believers may be saved without these signs, when they have neither place nor opportunity of observing them.

13. We acknowledge No sacraments (as of divine appointment) but Baptism and the Lord's supper.

14. We honor the secular powers, with subjection, obedience, promptitude, and payment. [Perrin's Hist. des Vaudois. Ch.12]

Masses are impious; and it is madness to say masses for the dead. Purgatory is the invention of men, for they who believe go into eternal life, they who believe not, into eternal no noation. The invoking and worshipping of dead saints is idolatry. The Church of Rome is the lady of Babylon. The pope has not the primacy over ALL the churches of Christ; neither hath he the power of both swords. That is the church of Christ, which hears the pure doctrine of Christ, and observes the ordinances instituted by him, in whatsoever place it exists.


Vows of celibacy are the inventions of men, and productive of uncleanness. So many orders [of clergy], so many superstitious dedications of churches, commemorations of the dead, benedictions of creatures, pilgrimages, so many forced fasting, so many superfluous festivals, those perpetual bellowing, [alluding to the practice of chanting and] and the observations of various other ceremonies, manifestly obstructing the teaching and learning of the word, are Diabolical invention. The marriage of priests is both lawful and necessary.

Another Waldensians confession of Faith (A.D.1150)

1. We believe that Jesus Christ is the Son and the image of the
Father---that in Him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells, and that by him alone we know the Father. He is our Mediator and advocate; nor is there any other name given under heaven by which we can be saved. In His name alone we call upon the Father, using no other prayers than those contained in the Holy Scriptures, or such as are in substance agreeable thereunto.

2. We believe in the Holy Spirit as the Comforter, proceeding from the Father, and from the Son; by whose inspiration we are taught to pray; being by Him renewed in the spirit of our minds; who creates us anew unto good works, and from whom we receive the knowledge of the TRUTH.

3. We believe that there is ONE holy church, comprising the whole assembly of the elect and faithful, that have EXISTED from the beginning of the world, or that shall be to the end thereof. Of this church the Lord is the Head! It is governed by his word and guided by the Holy Spirit. In the church it behooves all Christians to have fellowship. For her He [Christ] prays incessantly, and his prayer for it is most acceptable to God, without which indeed there could be NO salvation.

4. We hold that the ministers of the church ought to be Unblameable both in Life and Doctrine; and if found otherwise, that they ought to be deposed from their office, and others substituted in their stead; and that no person ought to presume to take that honor unto himself but he who is called of God as Aaron---that the duties of such are to feed the flock of God, not for filthy lucre's sake, or as having dominion over God's heritage, but as being examples to the flock, in word, in conversation, in charity, in faith, and in chastity.

5. We acknowledge, that kings, princes, and governors, are the appointed and established ministers of God, whom we are bound to obey [in all lawful and civil concerns]. For they bear the sword for the defense of the innocent, and the punishment of evildoers, for which reason we are bound to honor and pay them tribute. From this power and authority, no man can exempt himself, as is manifest from the example of the Lord Jesus Christ, who voluntarily paid tribute, not taking upon himself any jurisdiction of temporal power.

6. We believe that in the ordinance of baptism the water is the visible and external sign, which represents to us that which, by virtue of God's invisible operations, is within us---namely, the renovation of our minds, and the mortification of our members through [the faith of] Jesus Christ. And by this ordinance we are received into the holy congregation of God's people, previously professing and declaring our faith and change of life.

7. We hold that the Lord's supper is a commemoration of, and thanksgiving for, the benefits which we have received by his sufferings and death---and that it is to be received in faith and love---examining ourselves, that so we may eat of that bread and drink of that cup, as it is written in the Holy Scriptures.



~~ The Pilgrim Church by Edward H. Broadbent. Ch. V. Pages 85-101 (70-1700)

The Waldenses practices and doctrines:

These brethren, known as Waldenses, and also by other names, were of such a character that it is evident they were NOT the fruits of an effort to reform the Roman and Greek Orthodox churches and bring them back to more Scriptural ways. Bearing no traces of the influence of those churches, they indicate, on the contrary, the Continuance of an old tradition, handed down from quite another source--the teaching of Scripture and the practice of the primitive Church.

Their existence proves that there had Always been Men of faith, Men of spiritual Power and Understanding, who had maintained in the churches a tradition close to that of Apostolic days, and far removed from that which the dominant Churches had develop.

Apart from the Holy Scriptures they had no special confession of faith or religion, nor any rules, and no authority of any man, however eminent, was allowed to set aside the authority of the Scripture. Yet, throughout the centuries, and in ALL countries, they confessed the SAME truths and had the SAME practices. They valued Christ's own words, in the Gospels, as being the highest revelation, and if ever they were unable to reconcile His words with other portion of Scripture, while they accepted All, they acted on what seemed to them the plain meaning of the Gospels.

Following Christ was their chief theme and aim, keeping His words, imitating His example. The Spirit of Christ, they said, is effective in any man in the measure in which he obeys the words of Christ and is his true followers.

If anyone loves Him he will keep his words. A few great truths were looked upon as Essential to fellowship, but otherwise, in matters open to doubt or to difference of view, large liberty was allowed. They maintained that the inner testimony of the indwelling Spirit of Christ is of great importance, since the highest truths come from the heart to the mind; NOT that new revelation is given, but a clearer understanding of the Word.

The portion of Scripture most dwelt upon was the Sermon on the Mount, this being looked upon as the rule of life for the children of God. The brethren oppose to the shedding of blood, even to capital punishment, to any use of force in matters of faith and to any proceedings against such as harmed them. Yet, most of them allowed self-defense, even with weapons; so the inhabitants of the valleys defended themselves and their families when attacked.

They did not admit the claim of the great professing church to open or close the way of Salvation, nor did they believe that Salvation was through any sacraments or by anything but faith in Christ, which showed itself in the activities of love. They held doctrine of the sovereignty of God in election, together with that of man's free will. The love of theological disputation and pamphlet war was NOT developed among them so many others; yet they were ready to die for the TRUTH, laid great stress on the value of practical piety and desired in quietness to serve God and to do good. In matters of church order they practiced simplicity, and elders accepted their responsibilities with the utmost seriousness. In matter of discipline, appointment of elders, and other acts, the whole church took part, in conjunction with its elders.


The Lord's Supper was in both kinds and for ALL believers, and was looked upon as a remembrance of the Lord's body given for them and at the same time as a strong exhortation to yield themselves to be broken and poured out for His sake. "As to baptism," write an opponent, Pseudo-Reimer (1260), "Some err, claiming that little children are NOT saved by baptism, for they declared, the Lord says, " He that Believed and is baptized shall be Saved!" but a Child does NOT yet believe.

They believed in Apostolic succession through the laying of hands of such as had it on those really called to receive this grace. They taught the Church of Rome had LOST this when Pope Sylvester accepted the union of Church and State, but that it remained among themselves! When, however, through circumstances, it was NOT possible of application, God could convey the needed grace without it.

They valued education as well as spirituality; many who ministered the Word among them had taken a degree at one of the Universities. Pope Innocent III (1198-1216) bore a double testimony to them when he said that among the Waldenses educated laymen undertook the functions of preachers, and again, that the Waldeneses would only listen to man who had God in him.

Regular individual reading of the Scriptures, regular daily family

worship, and frequent Conferences were among the most highly prize means of maintaining spiritual life. The Waldensians Apostles had NO property or goods or home or family; if they had these they LEFT them. Their life was one of self-denial, hardship, without money, without second suit, their needs being supplied by the Believers among whom they ministered the word.

They always went TWO and TWO, and elder and a younger man, of whom the latter waited on his companion. Their visits were highly esteemed, and they were treated with every token respect and affection. They never ask anything; indeed, many undertook serious medical studies that they might be able to care for the bodies of those they met with. The name "Friends of God" was often given to them. Great care was in commending men to such service, since it was felt that ONE worth more than a hundred whose call to this ministry was less evident.

[nathanb]

Hi (Chris)Waldesian,

What do you think of the below information? This information is from my 2x2 website on Peter Waldo.

Was Peter Waldo (1170) the Founder of Vaudois? According to many historians Peter Waldo is NOT the founder of the Waldensian Church.

Raynonard, a notable linguist who examined certain Waldensian writings, was convinced of their antiquity. For instance, with regard to the "Noble Lesson," he wrote that "the date of the year 1100, which we read in the poem, deserves entire confidence."14 This is three-quarters of a century earlier that the Ministry article's date for the Waldenses.

Antiquity of Waldenses:


How does all this affect the question we began with, the length of time the Waldenses existed? Most of the older Protestant authorities ascribe ancient or even apostolic roots to the Waldenses.

10) Some assert that Peter Waldo (or Waldus) transferred his biblical concepts to the inhabitants of the Alpine area, but others maintain that the centuries before Waldo frequently testify of similar opposition by these inhabitants against the unbiblical presumptions of the papal church.

11) One nineteenth-century historian wrote, "It is plainly established nowadays that Peter Waldus or Valdus was not the founder of the Waldensian church, but owes his enlightened ideas to her."

12) Some ancient manuscripts may also testify to the antiquity of the Waldensian church. The Waldenses had a translation of the Scriptures which must be of a more ancient date than their preserved writings, which make many references to this translation.

13) Ellen White wrote that "the Waldenses were among the first of the peoples of Europe to obtain a translation of the Holy Scriptures" (The Great Controversy, p. 65). Raynonard, a notable linguist who examined certain Waldensian writings, was convinced of their antiquity. For instance, with regard to the "Noble Lesson," he wrote that "the date of the year 1100, which we read in the poem, deserves entire confidence."

14) This is three-quarters of a century earlier than the Ministry article's date for the Waldenses. It is fairly certain that the ancient writings of the Waldenses were copied many times and were adapted linguistically (and perhaps in other ways) to more recent standards because of manifold daily use.

15) But how old are the underlying documents, and how far back does the origin of the Waldenses go? Scholars differ on those questions. Nineteenth-century German scholars began to turn away from a very ancient, even apostolic, origin for the Waldenses, but a prominent scholar among them, Dieckhoff, noted that because of lack of further historical information, we are greatly dependent on suspicious Catholic sources.

16) He wrote in his foreword that in no way were his investigations brought to a satisfying conclusion on all points.

17) In his 1880 work Storia dei Valdesi avanti la Reforma, Emilio Comba, a Waldensian professor of historical theology and homiletics, was the first authority from within that group to reflect the new German investigations and conclusions regarding a non-ancient origin for the Waldenses.

18) It appears, however, that he was not entirely convinced, since six years later, in 1886, his booklet Who are the Waldenses? compared the influence of the Waldenses with the river Nile that owes its origin to a source still clouded in darkness.

He noted that some writers trace the origin of the Waldensian church to the first persecutions of the Christians by the Romans, others to the time of Vigilantius or of Claudius, bishop of Turin, while still others see the Waldensian church first appearing in the twelfth century. And then he stated plainly that the only thing that can be clearly proved is that the origin of the Waldenses is very closely related to the study of the Scriptures.

19) In 1922 the Waldensian school was transferred from Florence to Rome with Emilio's son Ernesto Comba as professor of the theological faculty. Ernesto also wrote a book about the history of the Waldenses: Storia dei Valdesi, published in the Waldensian town of Torre Pellice in 1923. A Dutch copy was published in 1927.

In the first chapter we are assured that at least as early as the fourth century there were flourishing churches in the Piedmont valleys. The chapter also indicated that we can accept Monastier's conviction that the Waldensian church is the connecting link between the ancient Christian churches and the later evangelical churches.

20) Comba presented arguments to demonstrate that the name Waldenses derives from valley ("vallis densa" valdensis) or from "vaudès," indicating also sorcery and heresy, and that they already existed before the time of Peter Waldo.

Comba cited Atto, bishop of Vercelli, who in his letters complained of apostates in that mountainous area. And in the chronicle of the monastery of St. Trudon in Belgium, the abbot Rodolf on his way to Rome indicated the Alps as a district with deep-rooted heresy. This was about 50 years before Waldo.

Eberhard de Béthune mentioned the name Waldenses more than a decade before Peter Waldo, (1170) while the abbot Bernard de Foncald wrote about heretics named "Valdensis" who were condemned during the pontificate of pope Lucius II (1144), nearly three decades before Peter Waldo.

21) Both Eberhard and Bernard said that their name is derived from "vallis densa," a dreary, deep valley. 22) Further, a letter written by the bishop of Liège to pope Lucius II mentions heretics as "old enemies" who scattered themselves all over France with their own church polity and discipline.

23) This proves clearly that a church organization, apart from Rome, was in existence before the year 1144. Well before the time of Waldo, in the early twelfth century, a report was written in the chronicle of the abbey of Corbie, telling about the activities of a "peculiar and ancient kind of people" inhabiting the Alps, who learned the Bible by heart and often wandered about as merchants. They despised the ceremonies and customs of the church and showed no regard for images and relics.

24) Abbot Conrad of Lichtenau wrote in the year 1212 that the" Poor Men of Leonists" or Valdenses, "when viewed as a sect and when considered in reference to their ultimate theological origin, had already sprung up and had long existed in Italy, previous to their becoming celebrated in France under the auspices and tutelage of the piedmontese merchant Peter."

25) Allix also held "that Peter Waldo was not the founder of the churches of the valleys, which were in being long before him." He pointed out clearly and decidedly, "Wherefore, that I may once for all clear this matter, I say, first, that it is absolutely false, that these churches were ever founded by Peter Waldo."

26) Some recent publications still uphold similar views. Mia S. H. van Oostveen wrote, "The opinion that the name `Waldens' would have its origin since [Waldo] and would mean `follower of Peter Waldo' is incorrect."

27) Interestingly, in the canons of the councils and in other official documents we do not find the followers of Waldo named as Waldenses but as "poor men of Lyon, France."

28) Another source remarks: "Peter Waldus or Waldo, who was but a follower of the Waldenses, first became known after the persecution of Lyon, France in the year 1181," while "shortly afterwards the history of the Waldenses is confined mainly to the valleys of Piedmont in Switzerland."

29) Waldo and his followers were at first also called "Leonists" (from "Lyon, France") and when persecuted they "fled into Piedmont, incorporating themselves with the Vaudois."

[nathanb]

Here is the question to Waldensian on the truth message board who believed Peter Waldo was your founder and your church started in the 11th century:

How could Peter Waldo a Frenchman in 1170 A.D. be the founder of the Waldensian's church when it was already EXISTED 1150 yrs before he was born?

Was Peter Waldo in 1170 A.D. the Vaudois/ Waldenses Founder? The answer is "NO,"

Peter Allix: Some remarks upon the Eccesiastic History of the Ancient Church of Piedmont pp. 176-182. The Waldenses had stiffly opposed the abuses of the Roman Church, and they held their doctrine from father to son, ever SINCE the year A.D. 120, as they had heard and received it from their elders and ancestors.

These believers of the valleys could "NOT" be so called from Peter Waldo of Lyons, France because he did "NOT" flourish at the soonest till the year 1170, according to Roger Hovenden, whereas the people of the valleys of Lucerne and Angrogne had the name of Wallenses from the beginning of the 12th century.

I have already made it appear, that they separated themselves from the Church in Rome long before, and that the name Wallenses or Vaudois, was given to them from the place of their abode, which the habitants called les Vaux de Lucerne et Angrogne, that is to say, the Valley of Lucerne Angrogne, from which came the Latin name Valenses, which was afterwards changed to Valdenses, when the design was laid to make men believe Peter (Waldo) Valdo was their founder.

It has often been said that a man Peter Waldo, who lived in Lyons, France about the year 1170, was really the founder of this "sect that was everywhere spoken against." But, history proves that such could "NOT" be the case, as tradition of the Vaudois existence from the days of the apostles can be traced back and in the 13th century, they are not only spoken of as having been known for a long while back, but as being numerous all over Western Europe.

For instance, in 1150 the Vaudoios were heard in Cologne, 1177 at Frankfurt, Nuremberg, and other Germans towns; large meetings were held by them at Metz in 1180; in Spain they were persecuted, in 1192 by Alfonso or Aragon, who mentions in his edict against them that he follows the example of his forefathers in forbidding their preaching. In 1170 they were forbidden to preach at Lyons, France by the Pope Lucius III, who edict against them.

They abounded at this time in Piedmont, and in Dauphine; all over the Southern of France, at Naples in Sicily, and Southern Italy---in the Netherlands, Flanders, and Brabant --- in Northern France and in England.

Who was Peter Waldo?

Peter Waldo of Lyons, France, a sucessful merchant and banker, was aroused to see his need of salvation by the sudden death of one of the guests at a feast he had given. A Vaudois theologian directed Peter Waldo to the Lord's words in (Matthew 19:21) "If thou be Perfect, go and "sell" that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shall have treasure in Heaven, and come and follow me."

Peter Waldo, therefore, made over his lands, property to his wife, SOLD the remainder, and distributed it among the poor. For a time, he devoted himself to the study of the Scriptures and then (1180) gave himself to traveling and preaching taking as the Lord's words, "He sent His disciples "Two and Two." Therefore, Jesus said unto them: "Pray, ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that He would send forth laborers into His harvest."

Companions joined Peter Waldo, traveling and preaching in this way, came to be known as the "Poor men of Lyons" Their appeal for recognition (1179) to the third Lateran Council, under the Pope Alexander III, had already ben scornfully refused. They were driven out of Lyons, France by Imperial edict and (1184) excommunicated. Scattered over the surrounding countries, their preaching proved very effectual and "Poor men of Lyons" became one of the many names attached to those who follow Christ and His teaching.

The relations of Peter Waldo with the Waldenses were so intimate that many call him the "Founder" of a sect of that name, though others derive the name from the Alpine valleys, Vallenses, in which so many of those believers lived. It is true that Peter Waldo was highly esteemed among them, but "NOT" possible that he should have been their founder, since the found their faith and practice on the scriptures and were followers of those who from the earliest times had done the same.

For outsiders to give them the name of a man "prominent" among them was only to follow the usual habit of their "opponents" who did not like to admit their right to call themselves, as they did, "Christians" or "Brethen."

Belief, doctrines, and practices of the Vaudois/Waldensians:

The doctrines and practices of the of these brethen, known as Vaudois or Waldenses and also by other names, were of such a character that it is evident they were NOT fruits of an effort to reform the Roman Catholic Greek Orthodox churches and bring them back to more Scripture ways.

Bearing no traces of the influences of those the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches, they indicate, on the contrary, the "Continuance" of an old tradition, handed down from quite another source---the teaching of Scripture and the practice of the primitive Church.

The Vaudois or Waldenses are, in fact descended from those refugees from Italy, who after Paul the apostle had there preached the Gospel, abandoned their beautiful country and fled, like the woman mentioned in Revelation, chapter 12, to these wild mountains (Swiss, Alps) where they have this day handed down the Gospel, from father to son, in the same purity and simplicity as it was preached by Paul.

Their existence proves that there "Has Always" been men of faith, men of spiritual power and understanding, who had maintained in the churches a tradition close to that of Apostolic days, and far removed from that which the dominant Churches.

Apart from the Holy Scriptures they had no special confession of Faith or religion, nor any rules, and no authority of any man, however, eminent, was allowed to set aside the authority scripture. Yet, throughout the centuries, and in all countries, they confessed the same truths, and had the same practices.

They valued Christ's own words, in the Gospels, as being the highest revelation, and, if ever they were unable to reconcile any of His words with other portions of Scripture, while they accepted all, they acted on what seemed to them the plain meaning of the Gospels.

Following Christ was their chief theme and aim, keeping His words, imitating His example. The Spirit of Christ, they said, is effective in any man in the measure in which he obeys the words of Christ and is His true follower. It is only Christ who can give the ability to understand His words. If anyone loves Him, he will "Keep" His words. A few great truths were looked upon as essential to fellowship, but, otherwise, in matters open to doubt or to difference of view, large liberty was allowed.

They maintained that the inner testimony of the indwelling Spirit of Christ is of great importance, since the highest truths come from the heart and mind; NOT that new revelation is given, but a "Clearer" understanding of the Word. They "DO NOT" build churches buildings.

In order, they said, to learn the mind of Christ, and to Understand His desires for His Church, it is needful to go back to the teachings of Christ and His apostles. They said also that it is an error to "suppose" that the direction given in the New Testament for Christian worship and were only fitted for those times. On the contrary, they were to hold good even to the "END" for God changes "NOT," and He rules percepts which needed "NO" change to make them suitable for following ages.

We do "NOT" find that they ever built churches, or places of worship, without attaching to it some such house. And, more frequently, the "house of God's poor" was their ONLY meeting-place. For they said the temple of God is His people.

The Vaudois apostles preached wherever they "Could," generally in the open air. They had also prayer meetings and Bible reading in private houses. We find that among the all the "Brethen" in whatever country they might be, they were regular in the habit of daily family prayers, and of giving of thanks before their meals.

They went, from time to time, with their neighbors to the services in the churches, but though this was not against their conscience, it was against their inclination.

In those days, when the magnificent cathedrals of Europe were rising in all their glory from among the dark and narrow streets, the "Brethen" turned AWAY and said, "The Lord dwells in temples made with hands, for we are the living temple in whom God the Spirit dwells."

They build for themselves simple and modest houses of prayer, and refuges for the poor adjoining. They sang no masses. They said, "For Christ has promised that where 2 or 3 gathered together in His name there is He; and where He is, there is solemn sense of His presence, and there is comfort, strength and joy."

They ate together the Lord's Supper, taking each one both Bread and the Wine. They said that the Supper was a remembrance of Him who became the Bread of Life for His own, whose body was broken on the Cross. And, it should remind us also, said they, that we are one body in Him, that we should be ready to lay down our lives for the brethen loving one another as He has loved us.

The true explanation of the darkness of those ages, in which the despised brethen shone as lights in the world. Without Creeds, or catechisms, scattered abroad from Spain to Hungary, from Calabria to England, from Provence to Eastern Prussia, their faith was one and the same, their teaching all alike---for their one authority was the Word of God.

Human learning, they said, could add nothing to God's teachings. For did He not choose and send forth fishermen and working men, armed only with His power and wisdom? And, was not that the time when He was not most glorified before men?

And, was it not, because men fell away from the teaching of these apostles, that ruin, and misery, and darkness came upon the Churches in Asia, Europe, and Africa? Therefore, said they, "Let our objection to go "BACK" to the days of the apostles and draw from the fountain head, rather than from the polluted streams."

Wrote one of the inquisitors, "These heretics teach, that they had no science, learned and taught, "nothing but the Bible." One of their judges said, "All of them, men and women, great and small, by day and night, never cease learning or teaching the Bible." As early as 1203 A.D., they had translated parts of the Bible into Germans, and so in other countries, otherwise this universal study of the Bible would, of course, have been impossible.

There is a sad side to this bright picture, and to trace back the cause of it we also must go to the Word of God. We read there that even in the days of Paul the apostle, "Many" had turned aside from the "Truth" that he taught, and he foretold that in this respect, matter would wax worse and worse, that men should turn away their ears from the teachings of the apostles of their Lord, and give heed to those who would want to add to the Gospel (II Timothy 3:1-11).

And, so it came to pass, that long before the first flight of the ancestors of the Vaudois or Waldenses to the mountain Valleys of Alps in Switzerland, the blessed Gospel of the Lord was but "Half" believed among the most enlightened.

They had forgotten the great and wonderful teachings of Paul, and understood but little what they remembered. They went back to the days before the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus, not seeing that as the seal upon this blessed work, God was calling out from all nations those who should be joined to Christ in heaven by the Holy Ghost, to be "One" body---the Body of Christ.

Already in the days of Paul we see how many there were who would make up "another Gospel" by adding on the law; as if the Church of God were but a continuation of His Old Testament people. Many who would prefer the old garment patched with the new cloth, and who would put the new wine into the old bottles. And, for this reason, the solemn messages of God in Galatians, Colossians, and in Hebrews stand as warnings.

The Brethen were in the habit of marking those who walked after the example of the Lord Jesus Christ, and they believed that a man walking with God will learn of God. It was not a question with them of this sect or that, but simply whether this or that man had been taught by the Spirit of God. They said, "We must receive the Spirit, to dwell in us, before the image of God can be restored in our souls.

We learned the way of God by the written Word, and the inner Word, namely, the Spirit, but not by gifts supposed to be handed down in the church nor by ordinances and ceremonies. The Church, or the Assembly, is only so far a mean of intercourse with God, as it is the "Possessor" and "Keeper" of the written word, and the habitation of the Holy Ghost."

Those Vaudois "Brethen," had NO images, and though they had a reverence for the saints of old, they did NOT worship them. A man communication with God, and holding the faith once delivered to the Saints, is the true "Successor" of the apostles, and such persons, meeting together, have "Authority" to exercise discipline in the church.

[nathanb]

1) What wrote: What I see in these various Waldensian posts is a fairly dismissive attitude to any similarities between the two groups.

Rather than exploring or admitting what the touch points between 1200 and 1890 might be, no matter how specious.
Almost like someone is afraid of something.

It's an open question to me. No-one other than Nathan seems in command of very much data on the subject.


~~ Nathan9:
From what I have read about the 1800's Waldensians they were fighting among themelves because of the new movement just sprang up the Reformation.... some decided to follow the original apostles teachings, belief and practices and others wanted to merged with the rest of the Reformation Protestant movement... build church buildings! adopted many of their ceremony teachings, seminary, etc...

The current Waldensian churches today are nothing more than just another Protestant churche. They have DEPARTED from the true orgin of the apostles and Jesus teachings which their forefathers, grand and great, great grandfathers/mothers had been faithful men/women.

Compare the early Vaudois/Waldenses teachings, belief, Itinerant ministry, homes meetings Vs. Current Waldensian churches today! is like night and day. They have lost their vision which their forefathers have kept it for 1800 yrs. What's ashame and truly sad to see them have gone off the tracks.

[nathanb]

Aug 13, 2008 JUSTWONDERINGG wrote:

hey Nate,

I don't think you are going to jam your re-incented 'history' down the Waldensian(s) throat(s). He(they) have denied your connections to them and provided plenty of links for you to go see that they are not your ancestral 2x2s. But you are demonstrating the arrogance of a 2x2 in trying to jam it down their throats anyway -- on a global stage. Congradulations -- even an ex-Worker disclaims your spin. So come on - give us all that great display of your arrogance.

~~~ What wrote:
I think you guys are missing Nathan's intention. It's just historical information. Take it for whatever it is worth.

As Nathan clarified on the other thread, he's not trying to prove a person-to-person succession but providing an examination of how NT teaching and practice may have been implemented through history by other than the main Catholic church. It is a fascinating history, the little I have read; why be threatened by it?

[nathanb]

Cherie Kropp wrote: 8/18/2008

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To What -

I ran across this interesting quote from John Long's (was a companion of William Irvine in 1897) Journal in the year 1900:

"About that time William Irvine left the Faith Mission. All who knew the man was acquainted with the fact that he did not covet or desire to start a new sect or Mission; and his leaving the Faith Mission was not without feeling the risk and responsibility of doing so; but circumstances and events rendered it necessary.

Some workers who gave up their situations to go fully in the Lord’s work were not accepted by the Faith Mission; others did not feel led to join it; and others believed in being more like the pattern as seen in Jesus, and reforming according to the ideal church in the Acts of the Apostles; among the latter was Edward Cooney, who had newly started out, became a strenuous advocate. Most of these workers were either young converts or disciples of William Irvine; and it became impossible for him to be true to the rules of the Faith Mission and to them; so he resigned the one and entered enthusiastically into the other. "

Edward Cooney a 2x2 worker said in the newspaper of Enniskillen, N. Ireland called The Impartial Reporter:

‘We did not start this Jesus way,’ he declared, ‘it was started and planned by God before we were ever thought of, and if you go any other way YOU WILL GO TO HELL.... ITS NOT COONEY’S or another body’s way, it is God’s plan and way. (Impartial Reporter, August 5, 1909, p. 8)

~~~ "There was in the days gone by, a certain man called William Irvine, upon whose heart God's spirit worked to raise him up like the judges of old, to lead back those in Christendom to the truth as it is in Jesus."

(Testimony of Edward Cooney, self-written)



~~~ Jesusonly wrote:

It's quotes like this that give me reservations about labelling William Irvine as founder. Also the Pattison Account tells us he was reluctant to lead the new movement but it was kinda forced upon him.

However it seems clear enough that the movement began around William Irvine while he was the Faith Mission superintendant following his successful mission in August 1897.

I think it would be hard to refute that the 2x2 fellowship organization broke away from the Faith Mission. When William parted ways with the Faith Mission he was the head worker of our 2x2 mission and several of our early workers went with him.

BTW, I'd like to add my gratitude for Cherie's efforts to assemble historical records that help to expose the truth about our fellowship's beginnings. Faith that relies on ignorance is like building a house on the sand and it will fall when the storms come.

We must build our faith on the rock - hearing and obeying Jesus himself.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

~~~ Anonymous wrote:
Forget it Cherie. "What" knows, as does everyone else, that Edward Cooney was a 2x2 worker and as we all know, whether under oath or not, lying is what they do best.

Arguing with "What" is a waste of your time. Never argue with an idiot. He'll just bring to down to his level then beat you with experience.


~~~ Cherie wrote in 8/19/2008:
I do not consider "what" to be an idiot. Far from it. And I dont think its respectful to call anyone on this board an idiot.

I see in "what" a very logical mind that must prove things for himself. I'm teh same way. He's asking for information and evaluating it. I'm glad to help by providing the info he requests when I have it on hand.

His conclusions are his business. His conclusions aren't totally formed yet--he hasnt evaluated all the information out there yet. I am pleased when people don't jump to the same conclusion I have reached--and instead, insist on seeing and weighing the evidence for themselves.

~~~ Dietcoke wrote:

After all the recent talk, this still seems to boil down to two fuzzies:

1. History is seldom precise, but most people will see that Irvine had such a huge hand in this back-to-Jesus movement that he could reasonably be called its "founder."

2. But the bottom line comes down to this question: Is it truly back-to-Jesus? If so, he founded nothing; if not, he is the founder. Therefore, there is no conflict for f&w's to believe he was not the founder while at the same time exes believe he was the founder. We should not be surprised by this.

Arguing whether Irvine was the founder seems as silly to me as any other religious argument. It's all a matter of what you believe. Exes, you can point out the "facts" but you cannot change one's religion any more than I can change your unfailing belief in Christianity by pointing out contradictory facts.

[nathanb]

Quotes from workers, senior workers, and overseers about the beginning.


"We did NOT start this Jesus Way...it was started and planned by God before we were ever thought of, and we are NOT starting a new religion. We are earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the Saints and trying to separate it from the traditions of men..."Edward Cooney (minister) Within Impartial Reporter" 1O/7/1909

"We believe we have EXISTED since Jesus sent forth the 70 disciples Two and Two." Richard S.

"It's from the beginning, planned in God's mind before creation. Walter N.1967

"We go back to the beginning." Calvin C. 1988

"Was William Irvine the first in the way?" "I think William was amongst the first... I feel that God has had a Way on the earth since before the foundation of the earth... I don't believe William Irvine is the beginner of it." Bea M. 1985


In answer to your question, "Where did this religion actually begin?" Was it with Jesus as we have been told in Gospel Meetings, or by a man name William Irvine in 1897? We believe Hebrews 12:2 "Looking to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith."

I would like to give you some references that mean a lot to me as we carry the Gospel to people and point them to something that is from the beginning and not to something started by MAN.

In John 17:5 Jesus spoke of the glory which He had with the Father before the world was, and in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word" etc. So, there is NO date for the starting, as it was with the Heavenly Father before the world. Why would we want something started by a Man when we have in the scripture something that is from the beginning and the scripture to back it up? Doris B. letter, 1989


"I never met William Irvine at any time and believe he was used of God, but was NEVER the ORIGIN of what we believe. I understand he became too big in himself and LEFT the fellowship we love. Workers I know and respect preach only what Jesus lived and taught with no mention at all of William Irvine, or any other man and give only real appreciation for those who retell in our days things taught in Jesus' day. This faith began in New Testament days, neither in Ireland NOR in the U.K. Roddy M. (Scotland Worker) letter dated 6/1/1995

"You sound rather disturbed about something to do with a Man Called William Irvine. I do BELIEVE he served God in sincerity and truth at one time. What happened I've never asked because our life doesn't really revolve around any person, but around JESUS? We feel sad at heart if any LOSE out because it's eternal life that is our goal, and we are eager to reach that Goal and help others to reach it too.

Even though David knew all the "ins and outs" of Saul, he NEVER once tried to expose him---even if we knew all about others (which I don't and never likely want to) I don't think it would be KIND to keep talking. Of course the soul (William) died in 1947 You mentioned he is gone and the Judge of all the earth will do right by all, but I am sure your faith isn't built on the RIGHTS and WRONGS of men, but the SIMPLE truth in JESUS.

We heard at convention about FAITH--God's word--God said it, we believe it and that SETTLES it--gives us a wonderful peace. We rest our hope on what God has said--What God pointed us to. This settles it once and for all and it brings a great peace. We feel so privileged to know and see what has been REVEALED to us and this REVELATION is a ROCK to us that the VERY GATES of HELL Cannot Prevail against.

Keep your faith strong in the MAN Christ Jesus. Tests will come but we must hold fast to what we have attained." Helen P. (Scotland worker) 6/15/1995


"William Irvine Did Not start this Church, it is from beginning, and the Way was just made evidence to him, then." Karen T. 1996

Letter: Then we are sometimes asked, "Why don't you speak of older ministers of the faith of Jesus in past generations?" God's answer to this question is found in II Cor. 4:5 "For we preach Not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your servants for Jesus sake." So, it is NOT the will of God for US to be preaching about ministers of past generations. We PREACH CHRIST." Dan H. 1984

"However, regardless of a written record being preserved, TRUTH is TRUTH. If nobody believes it and or ... if everybody believes it. Whether or not a thing is believed in has nothing to do with its correctness. To use parable illustration, the sun rises in the East and sets in the West.

That is an established fact of existence. Whether or not people believe the sun rises in the East and sets in the West...in no way changes that established fact of reality...Everybody could believe the sun rises in the West and sets in the East, but this would not make it true.

For anyone to say that what the Bible teaches was started at some certain year since the first century is pitiful IGNORANCE, and closing the eyes to established facts and truths. The teachings of the New Testament were started in the first century when God's dear Son was here on the earth. That is those truths were established in a group of believers then.

But that is NOT where it started. What God gave through his son was planned before the world began. Matt. 15: 34-35; John 17:24; Acts 3: 20-21; Rom 16: 25-26; I Cor. 2:7; Eph 1:4-5; Titus 1: 2; I Peter 1:18-21

"These truths make very clear that what God... The Son of God... and the Holy Spirit believe in, and what God's true ministers and Christians believed in, was planned in the heart and mind of God before the world began, and we BELIEVE the same TODAY. So, it is 100% FALSE for anyone to say that WHAT we Believe was started in some recent year." Dan H. Letter 11/21/89


"We are NOT following some way FOUNDED in the early 1900s, but it goes back to Christ. Jesus Himself set it up. Whether it was planted in the 1st Century, the 10th century or the 2Oth century, the message is the same, it produces the same thing." Tharold Sylvester 11/16/83

"We are simply a CONTINUATION of the Author of Truth." Harry Brownlee. 8/16/79

"We are often asked who started this Church?" Heb. 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith." Jesus gave us God's eternal plan of Salvation in its fullness. He is both the Author and Finisher. The WAY is like a seed, like the wheat seed. It was CREATED at the beginning of the world. Dan H. 1/1/84 Burlington, WA.


"Look at it like this. I have NO idea who my great-great-grandfather was, but I know that he had to exist, because here I am today. We know how life begets life and it is the same spiritually. I do not believe in some form of Apostolic succession that would be like the Catholic Church. People might build their faith on that, but I would like to believe that the friends, and ministry did come down through history that way." Eldon K. 6/4/95


"Often we are asked who started our fellowship, our doctrine, ministry? We are NOT interested in tracing personalities. Some say this was started with Jesus, but it began with God the Father, He gave Jesus the Gospel, the Doctrine. As Thou has SENT Me so have I SENT them--the SAME WAY--God STARTED it all, its the foundation on which we stand." Ken Pagington 9/22/1996.

[ibofufeqa]

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