Post by nathanb on Aug 15, 2008 22:19:04 GMT -5
1) What wrote:
Nathan,
As I previously stated to you in a PM I wanted to take a couple of days to digest your post on Jesus and the ministry.
The verses I enjoyed from your post, especially:
To the disciples:
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
and,
Jhn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
But I began to think about the later apostles who had not come into contact with Christ, especially Paul. Does Scripture contain the idea that an apostolic succession is not necessary? I believe it may.
~~~ According to the scriptures Paul's first contacted with Christ was through one a disciples of His in Acts 7:58 when he was a witness to put Stephen to death.
Then on the way to Damacus Saul/Paul met/heard Jesus in person (Acts9:1-8). It was in Damacus city where Saul/Paul met another disciple name Ananias (Acts 9:10-18) who healed his blindness and baptized him.
~~~ My understanding in the New Testament a person get in touch or contact about Christ either through one of his disciples or apostles... The same today! I heard the truth of God through the workers who had Bible studies on college campus lawn in 1978.
I have heard different oned heard the truth of God through the friends who shared with them the Gospel message.
2) Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
That's pretty clear: An apostle, not of men, neither by man.
I wanted to do a little more study of Paul's early days but did not have time. The road to Damascus is clear in my mind. But what of his early days and visit to Simon? Who baptized Paul?
~~~ Ananias, a disciple of Christ who baptized Paul. It was Stephen who brought the gospel message of Christ to him first.
After Saul/Paul became a Christian he went to Arabia and returned to Damacus. Then after 3 years he went up to Jerusalem to meet Peter and abode with him 15 days. (Gal. 1:16-19).
It was Barnabas, one of the 70 apostles in Luke 1: 1,2 who took Saul/Paul into the ministry Acts 11:25,26.
3) Here are some other interesting verses, as regards the ministry.
Rom 10: 15 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Can we construe this to mean that we cannot come to the gospel except we are preached to? The context of these verses seems to be Paul reaching out to the Gentiles. (See Romans 10:12). I think as a practical matter these verses are true. And I would take these verses on the basis of establishing the practical necessity of preaching, not as a pre-requisite to salvation.
~~~ As I wrote in the above God's plan is the ministry of the apostles and the ministry of the disciples one of the main methods others get to know, hear, and having fellowship with one another once they get converted.
~~~ God can speak to others through God's creation, and other means in Romans 1:21.
However, God's foremost plans is from Faith to Faith (Romans 1:17) whether from an apostle or a disciple (Stephen, Ananias, Philip the evangelist, Aquila and Prisilla church elders).
Paul wrote in Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto Salvation! to every one that BELIEVETH; to the Jews First! and also to the Gentiles.
(Romans 2:16) In the Day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my Gospel.
Jesus said, "And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be PREACHED! in all the world for a Witness to ALL the nations; and then shall the end comes. (Matthew 24:14)
~~~ God will fill the whole earth in every generation with His apostles and disciples as His LIVING Witnesses so those who wants to server God will find His truth and way.
(Acts 1:1- 8) Jesus said, "... Ye shall be Witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the ends of the earth."
Acts 2:1-21 It was the begining! where God poured out His Holy Spirit on the Apostles, handmaidens, disciples (120).... Verse 21 It shall come to PASS that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be SAVED.
....... how? God will fill the whole earth with His disciples and apostles as His LIVING Witnesses sharing Gospel to nations.
4) Consider:
* People can be reached by 'preachers' who are atheists or agnostics - yes, it has happened.
* People can be reached by 'preachers' who were once Christians and no longer are.
* People can be reached by 'preachers' who are obviously false. (I am not labeling all non-fellowship preachers as false here, but some undoubtedly are).
I also enjoyed Hebrews 8 on this subject of the ministry.
Hbr 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
This verse speaks of a ministry of a better covenant. What is that covenant?
Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
[The following verses are important too; salutary thoughts on the new covenant continue for several chapters. Here is one:]
Hbr 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
A few thoughts and some speculation on the early ministry. Comments?
~~~ I enjoy reading your thoughts very much. Jesus' Itinerant New Testament ministry is better than the Levitical priesthood because it offered better promised and is an everlasting Covenant! Christ's Salvation is offer to all unto the end of the world not just for those who lived in the first century.
Nathan,
As I previously stated to you in a PM I wanted to take a couple of days to digest your post on Jesus and the ministry.
The verses I enjoyed from your post, especially:
To the disciples:
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
and,
Jhn 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
But I began to think about the later apostles who had not come into contact with Christ, especially Paul. Does Scripture contain the idea that an apostolic succession is not necessary? I believe it may.
~~~ According to the scriptures Paul's first contacted with Christ was through one a disciples of His in Acts 7:58 when he was a witness to put Stephen to death.
Then on the way to Damacus Saul/Paul met/heard Jesus in person (Acts9:1-8). It was in Damacus city where Saul/Paul met another disciple name Ananias (Acts 9:10-18) who healed his blindness and baptized him.
~~~ My understanding in the New Testament a person get in touch or contact about Christ either through one of his disciples or apostles... The same today! I heard the truth of God through the workers who had Bible studies on college campus lawn in 1978.
I have heard different oned heard the truth of God through the friends who shared with them the Gospel message.
2) Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
That's pretty clear: An apostle, not of men, neither by man.
I wanted to do a little more study of Paul's early days but did not have time. The road to Damascus is clear in my mind. But what of his early days and visit to Simon? Who baptized Paul?
~~~ Ananias, a disciple of Christ who baptized Paul. It was Stephen who brought the gospel message of Christ to him first.
After Saul/Paul became a Christian he went to Arabia and returned to Damacus. Then after 3 years he went up to Jerusalem to meet Peter and abode with him 15 days. (Gal. 1:16-19).
It was Barnabas, one of the 70 apostles in Luke 1: 1,2 who took Saul/Paul into the ministry Acts 11:25,26.
3) Here are some other interesting verses, as regards the ministry.
Rom 10: 15 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Can we construe this to mean that we cannot come to the gospel except we are preached to? The context of these verses seems to be Paul reaching out to the Gentiles. (See Romans 10:12). I think as a practical matter these verses are true. And I would take these verses on the basis of establishing the practical necessity of preaching, not as a pre-requisite to salvation.
~~~ As I wrote in the above God's plan is the ministry of the apostles and the ministry of the disciples one of the main methods others get to know, hear, and having fellowship with one another once they get converted.
~~~ God can speak to others through God's creation, and other means in Romans 1:21.
However, God's foremost plans is from Faith to Faith (Romans 1:17) whether from an apostle or a disciple (Stephen, Ananias, Philip the evangelist, Aquila and Prisilla church elders).
Paul wrote in Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto Salvation! to every one that BELIEVETH; to the Jews First! and also to the Gentiles.
(Romans 2:16) In the Day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my Gospel.
Jesus said, "And this Gospel of the kingdom shall be PREACHED! in all the world for a Witness to ALL the nations; and then shall the end comes. (Matthew 24:14)
~~~ God will fill the whole earth in every generation with His apostles and disciples as His LIVING Witnesses so those who wants to server God will find His truth and way.
(Acts 1:1- 8) Jesus said, "... Ye shall be Witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the ends of the earth."
Acts 2:1-21 It was the begining! where God poured out His Holy Spirit on the Apostles, handmaidens, disciples (120).... Verse 21 It shall come to PASS that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be SAVED.
....... how? God will fill the whole earth with His disciples and apostles as His LIVING Witnesses sharing Gospel to nations.
4) Consider:
* People can be reached by 'preachers' who are atheists or agnostics - yes, it has happened.
* People can be reached by 'preachers' who were once Christians and no longer are.
* People can be reached by 'preachers' who are obviously false. (I am not labeling all non-fellowship preachers as false here, but some undoubtedly are).
I also enjoyed Hebrews 8 on this subject of the ministry.
Hbr 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
This verse speaks of a ministry of a better covenant. What is that covenant?
Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
[The following verses are important too; salutary thoughts on the new covenant continue for several chapters. Here is one:]
Hbr 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
A few thoughts and some speculation on the early ministry. Comments?
~~~ I enjoy reading your thoughts very much. Jesus' Itinerant New Testament ministry is better than the Levitical priesthood because it offered better promised and is an everlasting Covenant! Christ's Salvation is offer to all unto the end of the world not just for those who lived in the first century.
