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Truth
Dec 12, 2007 1:38:59 GMT -5
Post by Alan C on Dec 12, 2007 1:38:59 GMT -5
This was spoken at a special meeting and seeing the has been much said on what we believe and don't believe, here is what we believe.
Don't look for answers from me in the next 6 days as I am of to convention.
Be alert to wrong doctrine. Any one of us can make mistakes, but this cannot change God's foundation. Truth is unchanging, irrespective of us. We need to be careful how we speak about truth and the use of the word truth. ? Qualify it by always adding ? as it is seen in Jesus Christ. It would be a gross contradiction to read the Bible and say there is more than one way. Truth is greater than any person. Not so much emphasis put on our clothing as there once was but that doesn't lower the standard of God. Ephesians ch2, v8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: v9 Not of works, lest any man should boast Saved by grace ? the unmerited favour of God. Someone connected to me and who used to attend these meetings, put it to me – your people claim they are saved by works. That is not so, ? we do not believe that we are saved by works alone. We are only stewards of all we have received. There are two sides to salvation: God's grace ? this is the greater side. ? includes the sacrifice of Jesus for us. Then there is the part of cooperating with God. A very important component ? we do what God asks of us ? our cooperation with God. James tells about faith and works. These works are God inspired. Paul, when he spoke of works he referred to human works which are of no value, Are we saved or not? These same people said to me ?when we ask your people, are they saved? ? they can't tell us. My answer to that was ? Matthew ch24, v1 3. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 1 Peter ch3, v 15 Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear, Philippians ch2, v1 2 Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Work out your own salvation ? doesn't mean choose what you want but work it out with fear and trembling as He worketh in you ? with God, unto His pleasing. Our relationship with people outside the fellowship ? firstly we have to be sanctified ? make ourselves holy. Jesus began to do and teach. Sanctify your hearts before you give a response. The message should be seen. A poem quotes ? I'd rather see the message, than one merely point the way How do we know when to speak and when to keep silent? ? We can only know by being under the control of God. Don't cast your pearls before swine ? those who have no appreciation whatever for what is so precious to us. We have three foundation truths 1) ? the ministry of God's servants, with no home. 2) The ministry of God's people, meeting in the home on Sunday morning. 3) The gospel must be given freely. The gospel must be given without charge. Jesus didn't command about the home but He instituted the New Testament Passover in the home. The original Passover was in the home ? we have fellowship in the home ? Jesus was the fulfillment of the Passover. I don't like to hear it quoted ? two by two. Jesus sent His ministry ? two and two, not two by two. Luke ch12, v33. Sell that ye have, and give alms, etc Jesus freed His ministry from all natural encumberances. Our responsibility towards our brethren ? pray for each one individually to ensure a message that helps us ? not directing a message to others, That's a detriment, but speak about what has spoken to us. Romans ch 12, v3. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought [6 think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. God has given gifts to some, that He has not given to others, We are all in God's workshop. We cannot be unappreciative of the unfinished work of God in others. We must not elevate ourselves above another. Some things, God keeps hidden ? don't delve into realms which God intended should be hidden (Spanish bible says ? occult) Be concerned with the simple things ? God will reveal many things in eternity.
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Truth
Dec 12, 2007 16:58:47 GMT -5
Post by how telling on Dec 12, 2007 16:58:47 GMT -5
How telling that the speaker was so hung up on justifying a system of worship, as if that one system is the only correct system.
Why not just preach on the saving blood of Christ, and quit preaching about justifying your group/church/ministry?
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Truth
Dec 13, 2007 0:19:59 GMT -5
Post by sadinSeattle on Dec 13, 2007 0:19:59 GMT -5
This was spoken at a special meeting and seeing the has been much said on what we believe and don't believe, here is what we believe. Don't look for answers from me in the next 6 days as I am of to convention. Be alert to wrong doctrine. Any one of us can make mistakes, but this cannot change God's foundation. Truth is unchanging, irrespective of us. We need to be careful how we speak about truth and the use of the word truth. ? Qualify it by always adding ? as it is seen in Jesus Christ. It would be a gross contradiction to read the Bible and say there is more than one way. Truth is greater than any person. Not so much emphasis put on our clothing as there once was but that doesn't lower the standard of God. Ephesians ch2, v8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: v9 Not of works, lest any man should boast Saved by grace ? the unmerited favour of God. Someone connected to me and who used to attend these meetings, put it to me – your people claim they are saved by works. That is not so, ? we do not believe that we are saved by works alone. We are only stewards of all we have received. There are two sides to salvation: God's grace ? this is the greater side. ? includes the sacrifice of Jesus for us. Then there is the part of cooperating with God. A very important component ? we do what God asks of us ? our cooperation with God. James tells about faith and works. These works are God inspired. Paul, when he spoke of works he referred to human works which are of no value, Are we saved or not? These same people said to me ?when we ask your people, are they saved? ? they can't tell us. My answer to that was ? Matthew ch24, v1 3. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 1 Peter ch3, v 15 Be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear, Philippians ch2, v1 2 Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Work out your own salvation ? doesn't mean choose what you want but work it out with fear and trembling as He worketh in you ? with God, unto His pleasing. Our relationship with people outside the fellowship ? firstly we have to be sanctified ? make ourselves holy. Jesus began to do and teach. Sanctify your hearts before you give a response. The message should be seen. A poem quotes ? I'd rather see the message, than one merely point the way How do we know when to speak and when to keep silent? ? We can only know by being under the control of God. Don't cast your pearls before swine ? those who have no appreciation whatever for what is so precious to us. We have three foundation truths 1) ? the ministry of God's servants, with no home. 2) The ministry of God's people, meeting in the home on Sunday morning. 3) The gospel must be given freely. The gospel must be given without charge. Jesus didn't command about the home but He instituted the New Testament Passover in the home. The original Passover was in the home ? we have fellowship in the home ? Jesus was the fulfillment of the Passover. I don't like to hear it quoted ? two by two. Jesus sent His ministry ? two and two, not two by two. Luke ch12, v33. Sell that ye have, and give alms, etc Jesus freed His ministry from all natural encumberances. Our responsibility towards our brethren ? pray for each one individually to ensure a message that helps us ? not directing a message to others, That's a detriment, but speak about what has spoken to us. Romans ch 12, v3. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought [6 think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. God has given gifts to some, that He has not given to others, We are all in God's workshop. We cannot be unappreciative of the unfinished work of God in others. We must not elevate ourselves above another. Some things, God keeps hidden ? don't delve into realms which God intended should be hidden (Spanish bible says ? occult) Be concerned with the simple things ? God will reveal many things in eternity. This is SO sad, makes me cry. There is nothing truthful about this and nothing spiritual. I pray that God will open the eyes of these people to show them His real truth.
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fire
New Member
Posts: 18
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Truth
Dec 13, 2007 1:59:57 GMT -5
Post by fire on Dec 13, 2007 1:59:57 GMT -5
This is SO sad, makes me cry. There is nothing truthful about this and nothing spiritual. I pray that God will open the eyes of these people to show them His real truth. I am planning on responding to the original post in this thread when time permits. While you are free to state whatever you may, which you have done, it would be more constructive for you to reply in detail why you believe it's sad and why it makes you cry. please take the time to reply point to point why you feel the way you do, so others will have a better understanding of where you're coming from.
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Truth
Dec 14, 2007 12:05:07 GMT -5
Post by Richard McFarland on Dec 14, 2007 12:05:07 GMT -5
This is SO sad, makes me cry. There is nothing truthful about this and nothing spiritual. I pray that God will open the eyes of these people to show them His real truth. I am planning on responding to the original post in this thread when time permits.
While you are free to state whatever you may, which you have done, it would be more constructive for you to reply in detail why you believe it's sad and why it makes you cry.
please take the time to reply point to point why you feel the way you do, so others will have a better understanding of where you're coming from. fire,
Cool! With each of us approaching with an attitude such as this, there would be much less confusion about what each of us believe and WHY.
God is GREATER than any ONE WAY has given Him credit for. God is more FORGIVING than any ONE WAY has given Him credit for.
Was Romans 10:9 written for nothing? Must we all belong to a certain way in order for this verse to take place in our lives and eternity? (That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.)Sometimes my posts may seem to me to be a little too long but I think I may have a lot to say. I truly hope what I do write is a help to someone, somewhere! I also enjoy reading the longer posts. Points of explaination and detail with Biblical of Theological book references are always a nice touch to get a point across.
I appreciate each and every one who has posted on this board. This a wonderful feeling to see all of Christ's Brothers and Sistersable to gather here and share Faith, Fellowship and Friendship. We are only seperated by from each other sometimes by ignorance and discrimination. Christ's family does not need infighting. We only should be seperated from sin and drawn together in Christ.Love to each in the name of Christ during the time of man's celebration of His Birth!MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!Richard
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selah
Junior Member
Currently Reading 1 Samuel
Posts: 77
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Truth
Dec 15, 2007 11:21:02 GMT -5
Post by selah on Dec 15, 2007 11:21:02 GMT -5
Richard...I couldn't agree with you more!
And I share in your greeting.... Merry Christmas to you and everyone here!
Blessings, Linda
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Truth
Dec 15, 2007 14:35:28 GMT -5
Post by Chris on Dec 15, 2007 14:35:28 GMT -5
Truth is unchanging, irrespective of us. We need to be careful how we speak about truth and the use of the word truth. ? Qualify it by always adding ? as it is seen in Jesus Christ. It would be a gross contradiction to read the Bible and say there is more than one way. Truth is greater than any person. Jesus made it quite clear that there is only one way and he is it. What I find sad is that people get their eyes off of Jesus and see "the way" as organisation, method, group, system, tradition, legalism etc. The way is Jesus himself, and he seeks an intimate relationship between himself and every individual. The apostles preached Jesus as Lord, not themselves and their system "For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake" (2 Corinthians 4:5). It seems to me that Paul had it right: he wasn't looking for people who would serve the apostles and their system, but he was looking for people who would make Jesus their Lord and the apostles would serve them! It seems the implications of that verse are not well understood by church leaders who feel they need to dominate those entrusted to them. Chris
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Truth
Dec 17, 2007 0:58:13 GMT -5
Post by Alan C on Dec 17, 2007 0:58:13 GMT -5
How telling that the speaker was so hung up on justifying a system of worship, as if that one system is the only correct system. Why not just preach on the saving blood of Christ, and quit preaching about justifying your group/church/ministry? Trouble was though that he was preaching the way Jesus preached, so that would say that Jesus preached by way of a system. There cannot be more than one way and that is found in the way Jesus lived and worked His ministy. To true He said I am the way, but there was practical way of His ministry and He demonstrated this by His ministry. It is not just a matter of just saying Jesus is the way then racing off to minister in the way that pleases you. Follow me doesn't just mean saying Jesus is the way then trying to serve Him in the way man devises. It is a true fact that Jesus left an example of a itinerant ministry. It is a true fact that Jesus left an example with His disciples of meeting in the home on Sunday morning because they did. And it is a true fact that Jesus had a ministry that gave the Gospel freely. And it is also a true fact that if a ministry goes about not doing those things then they cannot be true to Jesus and the will of God and not follow in the one way Jesus. The preacher was not trying to justify a system of worship of man but the ministry of Jesus which is set a one way and one way only.
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Truth
Dec 17, 2007 1:00:28 GMT -5
Post by Alan C on Dec 17, 2007 1:00:28 GMT -5
This is SO sad, makes me cry. There is nothing truthful about this and nothing spiritual. I pray that God will open the eyes of these people to show them His real truth. It is absolutely truthful.
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Truth
Dec 17, 2007 1:40:23 GMT -5
Post by Alan C on Dec 17, 2007 1:40:23 GMT -5
Truth is unchanging, irrespective of us. We need to be careful how we speak about truth and the use of the word truth. ? Qualify it by always adding ? as it is seen in Jesus Christ. It would be a gross contradiction to read the Bible and say there is more than one way. Truth is greater than any person. That is absolutely correct and we are asked to follow in that way His way is clearly demonstrated in His walk in following the Fathers will. Are you saying that the preacher has his eyes of Jesus in stating thus? Are you saying that there was no method in which Jesus preached? Are you saying that God will accept any person into heaven who are not of His family? I seem to remember that it is only those who have the wedding garment on, a particular group? That is true, but when that happens those people become one not many and are bound by the spirit of Jesus Christ and cannot be many, [singular] They must become one group of people, we cannot follow Jesus in many different ways as is the case in this world today. That is correct but thy didn't preach a multiple of ways to follow Jesus but Just one, the way He walked and the way they were walking, the way that they were all one of one group of people not many. Frankly I don't believe what the preacher was saying is a system, and disagree with the assurtion that it is a system but the way of following Jesus as the Apostles and dicsiples were following. And that is what the preacher was saying, follow Jesus in the right way as Paul did and preached. Do you have any leaders in mind? Or Just the fellowship of which you are part of?
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Truth
Dec 17, 2007 5:37:32 GMT -5
Post by Chris on Dec 17, 2007 5:37:32 GMT -5
Chris Old: What I find sad is that people get their eyes off of Jesus and see "the way" as organisation, method, group, system, tradition, legalism etc.
Alan: Are you saying that the preacher has his eyes of Jesus in stating thus? Are you saying that there was no method in which Jesus preached? Are you saying that God will accept any person into heaven who are not of His family? I seem to remember that it is only those who have the wedding garment on, a particular group?
Chris New: Sorry Alan, I quoted this statement because I agreed with it – not to be critical of it. I should have made that clearer.
My understanding of the gospels is that Jesus was not strong on method – except to condemn it. He was strong on compassion and how to best meet the various needs of those he came into contact with. He was often condemned by those who were strong on method, and he was crucified by those who were strong on method.
God will accept those who are his children. His solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his" (2 Timothy 2:19). It’s a dangerous thing for man to try to quantify God’s children.
The parable of the wedding garment shows that group membership was not what the king was looking for. He was probably OK in the eyes of the others there that day, but the king immediately saw that he didn’t belong. It was probably the man’s condition of heart that didn’t stack up. Chris Old: The way is Jesus himself, and he seeks an intimate relationship between himself and every individual.
Alan: That is true, but when that happens those people become one not many and are bound by the spirit of Jesus Christ and cannot be many, [singular] They must become one group of people, we cannot follow Jesus in many different ways as is the case in this world today.
Chris New Yes, when an individual has an intimate relationship with Jesus he becomes one in spirit with others who share like precious faith.
Chris Old: The apostles preached Jesus as Lord, not themselves and their system "For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake" (2 Corinthians 4:5).
It seems to me that Paul had it right: he wasn't looking for people who would serve the apostles and their system, but he was looking for people who would make Jesus their Lord and the apostles would serve them!
It seems the implications of that verse are not well understood by church leaders who feel they need to dominate those entrusted to them.
Alan: Do you have any leaders in mind? Or Just the fellowship of which you are part of?
Chris New: The tendency to dominate is in us all by nature. This tendency plagued the disciples and untold others down through history.
When God reveals his will for me, it’s natural for me to expect others to see and do what I see and do.
We should point people to Christ and serve them, but not insist that they'll go to hell unless they follow us.
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Truth
Dec 17, 2007 21:56:57 GMT -5
Post by Alan C on Dec 17, 2007 21:56:57 GMT -5
Chris Old: What I find sad is that people get their eyes off of Jesus and see "the way" as organisation, method, group, system, tradition, legalism etc. Alan: Are you saying that the preacher has his eyes of Jesus in stating thus? Are you saying that there was no method in which Jesus preached? Are you saying that God will accept any person into heaven who are not of His family? I seem to remember that it is only those who have the wedding garment on, a particular group? Chris New: Sorry Alan, I quoted this statement because I agreed with it – not to be critical of it. I should have made that clearer. My understanding of the gospels is that Jesus was not strong on method – except to condemn it. He was strong on compassion and how to best meet the various needs of those he came into contact with. He was often condemned by those who were strong on method, and he was crucified by those who were strong on method. God will accept those who are his children. His solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his" (2 Timothy 2:19). It’s a dangerous thing for man to try to quantify God’s children. The parable of the wedding garment shows that group membership was not what the king was looking for. He was probably OK in the eyes of the others there that day, but the king immediately saw that he didn’t belong. It was probably the man’s condition of heart that didn’t stack up. Chris Old: The way is Jesus himself, and he seeks an intimate relationship between himself and every individual. Alan: That is true, but when that happens those people become one not many and are bound by the spirit of Jesus Christ and cannot be many, [singular] They must become one group of people, we cannot follow Jesus in many different ways as is the case in this world today. Chris New Yes, when an individual has an intimate relationship with Jesus he becomes one in spirit with others who share like precious faith. Chris Old: The apostles preached Jesus as Lord, not themselves and their system "For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake" (2 Corinthians 4:5). It seems to me that Paul had it right: he wasn't looking for people who would serve the apostles and their system, but he was looking for people who would make Jesus their Lord and the apostles would serve them! It seems the implications of that verse are not well understood by church leaders who feel they need to dominate those entrusted to them. Alan: Do you have any leaders in mind? Or Just the fellowship of which you are part of? Chris New: The tendency to dominate is in us all by nature. This tendency plagued the disciples and untold others down through history. When God reveals his will for me, it’s natural for me to expect others to see and do what I see and do. We should point people to Christ and serve them, but not insist that they'll go to hell unless they follow us. Thanks Chris for you clarification and I do see where you are coming from and agree. The original post was spoken by a N.Z worker, A.R, at an N.Z convention last year.
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Truth
Apr 28, 2008 23:05:45 GMT -5
Post by calleduntoliberty on Apr 28, 2008 23:05:45 GMT -5
Be alert to wrong doctrine. ... We have three foundation truths 1) ? the ministry of God's servants, with no home. 2) The ministry of God's people, meeting in the home on Sunday morning. 3) The gospel must be given freely. The gospel must be given without charge. Apply the "be alert to wrong doctrine" to the "three foundation truths". I agree these 3 are good things, but FOUNDATION TRUTHS? These are as sand for a foundation. Jesus is the rock -- the only firm foundation. "I am the way and the truth and the life". If you build your building on the three "foundation truths" you list above, you will fail. You must have Jesus Christ as your foundation to have salvation.
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Truth
May 5, 2008 16:56:16 GMT -5
Post by nathanb on May 5, 2008 16:56:16 GMT -5
Be alert to wrong doctrine. ... We have three foundation truths 1) ? the ministry of God's servants, with no home. 2) The ministry of God's people, meeting in the home on Sunday morning. 3) The gospel must be given freely. The gospel must be given without charge. Apply the "be alert to wrong doctrine" to the "three foundation truths". I agree these 3 are good things, but FOUNDATION TRUTHS? These are as sand for a foundation. Jesus is the rock -- the only firm foundation. "I am the way and the truth and the life". If you build your building on the three "foundation truths" you list above, you will fail. You must have Jesus Christ as your foundation to have salvation. Welcome! to ST message board, CUL. Good to see you posting on here.
Yes, I agree 100% we must have Jesus Christ as the Rock of our foundation to have Salvation.... #1,2,3, are part the Rock foundation of Christ's teachings. Keep our eyes focus on Jesus, his teaching, and the apostles when they are in line with His.
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Truth
May 10, 2008 23:41:17 GMT -5
Post by calleduntoliberty on May 10, 2008 23:41:17 GMT -5
Christ HIMSELF is the Rock, not some list of teachings.
Even if Christ had taught #1-3 above, that would not make #1-3 the "foundation truths". Christ Himself must be the foundation, Christ Himself is the truth. Yes, I know you agree with this, but then you still find some way to call these three things the "foundation". They are not. Part of the building, at most, but not the foundation.
Now, we don't have any record that Christ Himself specifically taught these things. Christ sent disciples out on two specific occasions, but most of these disciples probably had homes. Jesus did not say no minister may have a home.
There's also nothing in the Bible that says meetings must be in the home. Yes, some of the epistles mention churches in homes, but they do not say that churches must in homes. So despite the fact that meetings in homes are a good thing, there is no justification for calling them a foundation truth. The Bible also doesn't even say that meetings should be on Sunday -- it doesn't even record that they were ever held on Sunday.
And the gospel must be given without charge? Sure, sounds nice, but what about "the labourer is worthy of his hire"?
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