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Post by nathanb on Apr 14, 2009 8:26:57 GMT -5
1) Folks, lets be clear. The Cooneyites are one and the same group as that which is referred to on this board as the 2x2 sect or 'The Truth'. Attempting to persuade anyone that the Cooneyites are a different group is all part of the Great Deception. The Cooneyites are alive and well and are exactly the same group that preached hell, fire and no noation on street corners early in the 20th century when the name Cooneyite was first used by the press and public to identify the group. The 2x2 sect never ceased to be Cooneyites. George Walker never ceased to be a Cooneyite. Jack Carroll was a Cooneyite. Wilson Reid was a Cooneyite. I was a Cooneyite. Almost everyone on ths board was, or is, a Cooneyite. ~~~ N9: The 2x2s have been called by others with different names such as Irvinites, Cooneyites, Reidites, etc... because they have NOT no Universal official church name to go by so many names were given and called through the years.
And before them those who followed the same 2x2s apostolic Itinerant ministry as Paulicans, Waldensians, Petrobrussians, Pataranes, Speronistae, Passagini, Josepini, etc had the same problem.
Church history lesson: The lesson from the past.
From The Pilgrim Church book:
The relations of Peter Waldo (French man in 1170) with the Waldeneses were so intimate that many call him the FOUNDER! of a sect of that name, though others derive the name from the Alpine Valleys, Vallenses, in which so many of those believers lived.
It is true that Peter Waldo was highly esteemed among them but NOT possible that he should have been their FOUNDER! since they found their faith and practice on the Scriptures and were followers of those who from the earliest times and done the same.
For OUTSIDERS! to give them the name of a MAN Prominent among them was ONLY to follow the usual habit of their Opponents, who did NOT like to admit their right to call themselves, as they did "CHRISTIANS."
A Pro- Catholic Barnard Clairvaux (1100's) complained bitterly of their objection to taking the name of anyone as their founder. He said, "Inquire of them the author of their sect and they will ASSIGN NONE! What heresy is there, which from among men, has not had its own heresiarch?" For their heresy is not derived from man, neither through man have they received.." He then comes to conclusion that they had received it from demons.
~~ History is repeating itself, eh.2) Of course it is well known that Edward Cooney himself was later excommunicated from the group and the 2x2 hierarchy then used his departure as an opportunity to attempt to disassociate themselves from the embarrassing antics of their past by denying that their group had anything to do with the name Cooneyite. A useful tactic obviously if you wish to persaude some sincere and seeking souls that your group is not a bunch of religious morons. Rather conveniently they now began to claim that it was Cooney's ex-communicated group of followers who were the Cooneyites of the past and that the Cooneyite name had nothing to do with them. That was a spiritual fraud. If a 2x2 worker claims he is not a Cooneyite, that is an outright lie. The 2x2 sect was founded upon the rock of a religious fanatic standing on a street corner preaching that the clergy were all going to hell. ~~ Sorry, I don't believe it was a spiritual fraud at all. It's a miracle I say how God revealed these things to the early workers to do what they did.
~~~ William Irvine and many of the early 2x2s workers did the right thing when he, some of Faith Mission workers left this group, and many others joined them in 1900's.
John Govan the Faith Mission founder teachings: .... It is understood that our work is essentially Itinerant, not the establishment of permanent station, but the special mission in of places for brief periods, passing on afterwards to other parts. We do not wish in any way to interfere with "Denominational" preferences and distinctions, but leave those who get help through our missions to attach themselves to WHATEVER church, chapel, or meeting-house they choose!
~~ John Govan's teachings sound very much like Billy Graham! After he got them converted through his missions and then he told them to join the churches of your choices.
~~~ Some people are going out of their way to "TAG" William Irivine as a FOUNDER! of his Matthew 10 movement something of his own idea and nobody had done it before.... and to show others he was a false prophet, a delusioner, a shady character so the WHOLE thing is a Cult.. so the group is built on by Cultist William Irivine....
Now we know that is not the case! it was NOT a NEW idea that WI started... How can he be a founder when he tried to imitated from the apostles in the first century.
~~~ According to Edward Cooney testimony.
"We did NOT start this Jesus Way...it was started and planned by God before we were ever thought of, and we are NOT starting a new religion. We are earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the Saints and trying to separate it from the traditions of men..."Edward Cooney ( 2x2s minister) Impartial Reporter" 10/7/1909.
~~~ 10/16/1936 William Irivine (1897) wrote: " My attempt to do as acts and apostles taught, tried to imitate what's there."
~~~ Didn't Paul write in I Cor. 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I follow the example of Christ. (NIV)
It is wrong, false and unscriptures to follow the examples of Jesus and the apostolic 2x2 New Testament ministry?
Dr. J wrote in his book.
Only two early Christians "workers" established a limited personality cult ---- William Irivine and Edward Cooney and they were eventually expelled by their co-workers. William Irvine ASSERT, at one point, that he had Personally! founded the movement but it was a CLAIM that was NEVER admitted generally by the community.
It was a claim resurrected almost a century later by detractors of the movement who sought to associate it with one particular individual.
In fact, after William Irvine being excluded from the ministry for moral laxity, he adopted outlandish millenninalist theology, perhaps influenced by the the theories of Charles Russell and the Watch Tower Bible and Tract society and repaired to Jerusalem when he awaited the expected Second Advent in 1914, believing that he was one of the two faithful witnesses mentioned in the Apocalypse chapter 11.
From Dr. Jaenean's book: Apostles' Doctrine and Fellowship
As the movement (2x2) expanded beyond the Irish counties and the British Isles, a primitive hierarchy, or collective oversight by senior ministers, was established over the "fields" or an expanding world-wide community. This eventually gave rise to questions or origins and founders.
There followed a situation not dissimilar to that challenging of the Catholic Inquisitors in the 12th centuries who were unable to determine who had founded the heresies (such as the Vaudois, Peter Waldo (1173) Paulicans, Henricans, Albigenese, Cathars, etc) they sought to exterminate. The mediaeval heretics themselves were Unaware of such founders and they believed that the preachers they KNEW were True apostles inasmuch as they lived according to evangelical precepts.
The Irish (2x2) revivals produced a similar situation because leadership was "Collective" and evangelization was NOT carried out by individuals. There is sufficient evidence to support the interpretation given by one of the original participants, George Walker (1899) present to the American Selective Service authorities in 1942.
.... We take this opportunity to state that during the closing years of people in British Isles and in America were exercised in heart and mind, through their study of the Scriptures, in regard to the methods of preaching and worship in the several churches of which they were members.
They were deeply concerned about the spiritual things, and became fully convinced that there should be a RETURN to the METHODS and purpose TAUGHT and carried out by Christ and His first disciples.
This conviction led to frequent earnest conversations and studies on the subject, which in turn led to religious meetings, and in due times a number of these people went forth to devote their lives to the preaching of the gospel according to the teaching and example of Christ as given in the New Testament... i.e. "Two by Two" and without salary or making appeal for financial assistance, putting implicit trust in God and His promise that as they "sought first the kingdom of God" their natural needs of food and raiment's "would be added unto them."
As a result of this step, many people expressed their desire to be in fellowship with such preachers and this led to regular gathering together of small assemblies in homes for worship and study of God's word.
The reason for meeting in homes was primary because it is Scriptures, the Christians during the first centuries of the Christian ere met regularly for worship in the homes, which fact is also borne out and supported by church history.
Thus after serious consideration, the leaders were confident that in their efforts to follow the early Christians they should form church gatherings in homes; therefore NO church property or real estate has been acquired by purchased or otherwise, and for this reason incorporation and registration under denominational name has NOT been necessary.
The meetings continue to the present in homes and are under the guidance of local Elders, Baptism by Immersion and the weekly observance of the Lord's Supper is taught and practiced.
In the year 1903 ministers of this Christian body began their labors in the United States and in the year 1904 to Canada. In these and subsequent years through the preaching of the Gospel, assemblies were formed in homes as already described. In the 1906 the first annual conventions were held in North America, and from this beginning the number of Ministers in North America has grown to over 900 about equally divided between men and women; the assemblies for regular worship to over 3,000; and the annual convention over to 100.
Those who enter this ministry must first establish very definitely their religious character and have fulfilled the other qualifications consider necessary. They MUST be upright and of high principle having proven their ability to earn their living in an honorable and must have taken an active part in the Church meetings regularly attended.
If and when are considered to have qualified, and are then appointed and assisted an experienced minister in an evangelistic work in ministering to assemblies of Christians. From the time of appointment, ministers devote their entire time and talents to the work of the ministry. If for sufficient reason anyone thus accepted later prove to be Unworthy or Unfit he can not continue in this ministry.
Signed
George Walker
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Post by nathanb on Apr 14, 2009 9:06:29 GMT -5
~~ Here are some the questions to Chris, who was born and raise as a 2x2 but claimed to be a Waldensian today on the truth message board. He believed Peter Waldo was his founder and their church started in the 11th century:.... According to many various historians this isn't TRUE.
1) How could Peter Waldo a Frenchman in 1170 A.D. be the founder of the Waldensian's church when it was already EXISTED 1150 yrs before he was born?
Was Peter Waldo in 1170 A.D. the Vaudois/ Waldenses Founder? The answer is "NO,"
~~~ Peter Allix a Waldensian historian wrote: Some remarks upon the Eccesiastic History of the Ancient Church of Piedmont pp. 176-182. The Vaudois had stiffly opposed the abuses of the Roman Church, and they held their doctrine from father to son, ever SINCE the year A.D. 120, as they had heard and received it from their elders and ancestors.
These Vaudois believers of the valleys could "NOT" be so called from Peter Waldo of Lyons, France because he did "NOT" flourish at the soonest till the year 1170, according to Roger Hovenden, whereas the people of the valleys of Lucerne and Angrogne had the name of Wallenses from the beginning of the 12th century.
I have already made it appear, that they separated themselves from the Church in Rome long before, and that the name Vaudois, was given to them from the place of their abode, which the habitants called les Vaux de Lucerne et Angrogne, that is to say, the Valley of Lucerne Angrogne, from which came the Latin name Valenses, which was afterwards changed to Valdenses, when the design was laid to make men believe Peter (Waldo) Valdo was their founder.
It has often been said that a man Peter Waldo, who lived in Lyons, France about the year 1170, was really the founder of this "sect that was everywhere spoken against." But, history proves that such could "NOT" be the case, as tradition of the Vaudois existence from the days of the apostles can be traced back and in the 13th century, they are not only spoken of as having been known for a long while back, but as being numerous all over Western Europe.
For instance, in 1150 the Vaudoios were heard in Cologne, 1177 at Frankfurt, Nuremberg, and other Germans towns; large meetings were held by them at Metz in 1180; in Spain they were persecuted, in 1192 by Alfonso or Aragon, who mentions in his edict against them that he follows the example of his forefathers in forbidding their preaching. In 1170 they were forbidden to preach at Lyons, France by the Pope Lucius III, who edict against them.
They abounded at this time in Piedmont, and in Dauphine; all over the Southern of France, at Naples in Sicily, and Southern Italy---in the Netherlands, Flanders, and Brabant --- in Northern France and in England.
Who was Peter Waldo?
Peter Waldo of Lyons, France, a sucessful merchant and banker, was aroused to see his need of salvation by the sudden death of one of the guests at a feast he had given. A Vaudois theologian directed Peter Waldo to the Lord's words in (Matthew 19:21) "If thou be Perfect, go and "sell" that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shall have treasure in Heaven, and come and follow me."
Peter Waldo, therefore, made over his lands, property to his wife, SOLD the remainder, and distributed it among the poor. For a time, he devoted himself to the study of the Scriptures and then (1180) gave himself to traveling and preaching taking as the Lord's words, "He sent His disciples "Two and Two." Therefore, Jesus said unto them: "Pray, ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that He would send forth laborers into His harvest."
Companions joined Peter Waldo, traveling and preaching in this way, came to be known as the "Poor men of Lyons" Their appeal for recognition (1179) to the third Lateran Council, under the Pope Alexander III, had already ben scornfully refused. They were driven out of Lyons, France by Imperial edict and (1184) excommunicated. Scattered over the surrounding countries, their preaching proved very effectual and "Poor men of Lyons" became one of the many names attached to those who follow Christ and His teaching.
The relations of Peter Waldo with the Waldenses were so intimate that many call him the "Founder" of a sect of that name, though others derive the name from the Alpine valleys, Vallenses, in which so many of those believers lived. It is true that Peter Waldo was highly esteemed among them, but "NOT" possible that he should have been their founder, since the found their faith and practice on the scriptures and were followers of those who from the earliest times had done the same.
For outsiders to give them the name of a man "prominent" among them was only to follow the usual habit of their "opponents" who did not like to admit their right to call themselves, as they did, "Christians" or "Brethen."
~~~ Doctrines, and practices of the Vaudois/Waldensians:
The doctrines and practices of the of these brethen, known as Vaudois or Waldenses and also by other names, were of such a character that it is evident they were NOT fruits of an effort to reform the Roman Catholic Greek Orthodox churches and bring them back to more Scripture ways.
Bearing no traces of the influences of those the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches, they indicate, on the contrary, the "Continuance" of an old tradition, handed down from quite another source---the teaching of Scripture and the practice of the primitive Church.
The Vaudois or Waldenses are, in fact descended from those refugees from Italy, who after Paul the apostle had there preached the Gospel, abandoned their beautiful country and fled, like the woman mentioned in Revelation, chapter 12, to these wild mountains (Swiss, Alps) where they have this day handed down the Gospel, from father to son, in the same purity and simplicity as it was preached by Paul.
Their existence proves that there "Has Always" been men of faith, men of spiritual power and understanding, who had maintained in the churches a tradition close to that of Apostolic days, and far removed from that which the dominant Churches.
Apart from the Holy Scriptures they had no special confession of Faith or religion, nor any rules, and no authority of any man, however, eminent, was allowed to set aside the authority scripture. Yet, throughout the centuries, and in all countries, they confessed the same truths, and had the same practices.
They valued Christ's own words, in the Gospels, as being the highest revelation, and, if ever they were unable to reconcile any of His words with other portions of Scripture, while they accepted all, they acted on what seemed to them the plain meaning of the Gospels.
Following Christ was their chief theme and aim, keeping His words, imitating His example. The Spirit of Christ, they said, is effective in any man in the measure in which he obeys the words of Christ and is His true follower. It is only Christ who can give the ability to understand His words. If anyone loves Him, he will "Keep" His words. A few great truths were looked upon as essential to fellowship, but, otherwise, in matters open to doubt or to difference of view, large liberty was allowed.
They maintained that the inner testimony of the indwelling Spirit of Christ is of great importance, since the highest truths come from the heart and mind; NOT that new revelation is given, but a "Clearer" understanding of the Word. They "DO NOT" build churches buildings.
In order, they said, to learn the mind of Christ, and to Understand His desires for His Church, it is needful to go back to the teachings of Christ and His apostles. They said also that it is an error to "suppose" that the direction given in the New Testament for Christian worship and were only fitted for those times. On the contrary, they were to hold good even to the "END" for God changes "NOT," and He rules percepts which needed "NO" change to make them suitable for following ages.
We do "NOT" find that they ever built churches, or places of worship, without attaching to it some such house. And, more frequently, the "house of God's poor" was their ONLY meeting-place. For they said the temple of God is His people.
The Vaudois apostles preached wherever they "Could," generally in the open air. They had also prayer meetings and Bible reading in private houses. We find that among the all the "Brethen" in whatever country they might be, they were regular in the habit of daily family prayers, and of giving of thanks before their meals.
They went, from time to time, with their neighbors to the services in the churches, but though this was not against their conscience, it was against their inclination.
In those days, when the magnificent cathedrals of Europe were rising in all their glory from among the dark and narrow streets, the "Brethen" turned AWAY and said, "The Lord dwells in temples made with hands, for we are the living temple in whom God the Spirit dwells."
They build for themselves simple and modest houses of prayer, and refuges for the poor adjoining. They sang no masses. They said, "For Christ has promised that where 2 or 3 gathered together in His name there is He; and where He is, there is solemn sense of His presence, and there is comfort, strength and joy."
They ate together the Lord's Supper, taking each one both Bread and the Wine. They said that the Supper was a remembrance of Him who became the Bread of Life for His own, whose body was broken on the Cross. And, it should remind us also, said they, that we are one body in Him, that we should be ready to lay down our lives for the brethen loving one another as He has loved us.
The true explanation of the darkness of those ages, in which the despised brethen shone as lights in the world. Without Creeds, or catechisms, scattered abroad from Spain to Hungary, from Calabria to England, from Provence to Eastern Prussia, their faith was one and the same, their teaching all alike---for their one authority was the Word of God.
Human learning, they said, could add nothing to God's teachings. For did He not choose and send forth fishermen and working men, armed only with His power and wisdom? And, was not that the time when He was not most glorified before men?
And, was it not, because men fell away from the teaching of these apostles, that ruin, and misery, and darkness came upon the Churches in Asia, Europe, and Africa? Therefore, said they, "Let our objection to go "BACK" to the days of the apostles and draw from the fountain head, rather than from the polluted streams."
Wrote one of the inquisitors, "These heretics teach, that they had no science, learned and taught, "nothing but the Bible." One of their judges said, "All of them, men and women, great and small, by day and night, never cease learning or teaching the Bible." As early as 1203 A.D., they had translated parts of the Bible into Germans, and so in other countries, otherwise this universal study of the Bible would, of course, have been impossible.
There is a sad side to this bright picture, and to trace back the cause of it we also must go to the Word of God. We read there that even in the days of Paul the apostle, "Many" had turned aside from the "Truth" that he taught, and he foretold that in this respect, matter would wax worse and worse, that men should turn away their ears from the teachings of the apostles of their Lord, and give heed to those who would want to add to the Gospel (II Timothy 3:1-11).
And, so it came to pass, that long before the first flight of the ancestors of the Vaudois or Waldenses to the mountain Valleys of Alps in Switzerland, the blessed Gospel of the Lord was but "Half" believed among the most enlightened.
They had forgotten the great and wonderful teachings of Paul, and understood but little what they remembered. They went back to the days before the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus, not seeing that as the seal upon this blessed work, God was calling out from all nations those who should be joined to Christ in heaven by the Holy Ghost, to be "One" body---the Body of Christ.
Already in the days of Paul we see how many there were who would make up "another Gospel" by adding on the law; as if the Church of God were but a continuation of His Old Testament people. Many who would prefer the old garment patched with the new cloth, and who would put the new wine into the old bottles. And, for this reason, the solemn messages of God in Galatians, Colossians, and in Hebrews stand as warnings.
Those Vaudois "Brethen," had NO images, and though they had a reverence for the saints of old, they did NOT worship them. A man communication with God, and holding the faith once delivered to the Saints, is the true "Successor" of the apostles, and such persons, meeting together, have "Authority" to exercise discipline in the church.
~~~~ (Romans 11:1-5) ... Elijah Thought he was the Only One left alive. "Lord they have killed thy Prophets and dug down thine altars; and I AM Left Alone, and they seek my life." But what saith the answers of God unto him? "I have Reserved to myself 7000 men, who Have NOT bowed their knees to the image of Baal. Even to this present time also there is a Remnant according to the Election of Grace."
(Hebrews 13: 7-9,17) Remember them which rule (guide) over you, who have spoken the word of God. Jesus Christ the same Yesterday, Today, and Forever. Be not carried about with all kinds and strange doctrines... Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves, for they Watch over your souls as they that must give an account that they may do it with JOY, and NOT with Grief. Pray for Us (apostles).
~~~~ "We did NOT start this Jesus Way...it was started and planned by God before we were ever thought of, and we are NOT starting a new religion. We are earnestly contending for the faith once delivered to the Saints and trying to separate it from the traditions of men..."Edward Cooney ( 2x2s minister) Impartial Reporter" 1O/7/1909.
~~~ William Irvine and many of the early 2x2s workers did the right thing when he, some of Faith Mission workers left this group, and many others joined them in 1900's.
John Govan the Faith Mission founder teachings: .... It is understood that our work is essentially Itinerant, not the establishment of permanent station, but the special mission in of places for brief periods, passing on afterwards to other parts. We do not wish in any way to interfere with "Denominational" preferences and distinctions, but leave those who get help through our missions to attach themselves to WHATEVER church, chapel, or meeting-house they choose!
~~ John Govan's teachings sound very much like Billy Graham! After he got them converted through his missions and then he told them to join the churches of your choices.
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Post by eternally on Sept 23, 2010 15:31:04 GMT -5
After reading these posts, the history, etc....my question is: Why are we so concerned about WHO was the founder of the Truth, we cherish today. The scriptures tells us clearly who the founder really is '...In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God'. Jn 1:1. Also, vs 14 '..And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us,(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.' Eph. 2:20 - '..And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief conrner stone;' and the Apostle John wrote, from his own personal experience with the Christ - '..That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;' lst Jn 1:1. In Gen. 1:1-26 '..God created all things and on the 5th day he saw that it was good, on the 6th day, God said, "let US make man in our own image and after our likeness:' So, this tells us that Jesus was with the Father, during very beginning of the creation. thus, we need not be carried away with who founded what...No man founded the truth, no man ever could. The truth was from the very beginning and its' founder, if you will, was God himself!! Aren't we thankful for this!!!
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